Pick a Chopin scherzo for me! (Or at least help me decide).

[lagin]

Okay guys, which Chopin scherzo should I learn and why?  And does anyone know about how many pages each of them are?  (Want to prepare myself for memorization purposes!)  Also, technically, not musically, can someone rate their order of difficulty?  I don't want to accidentally pick the hardest one!  Thanks.

[jre58591]

no 2 seems to be a great pick. its probably the easiest one, for me at least. its also my favorite. ill give the page count for each one. no 1 - 17. no 2 - 20. no 3 - 14. no 4 - 21. thers a great vid of zimerman playing no 2 on youtube. its a great reference.

[lagin]

Thanks!  That's the one my teacher thought of first, too, but I've been listening to some of the other 3 and now can't make up my mind!  It "sounds" like (don't have the scores) that the first and fourth are the harder ones.  Let me know if I'm wrong though, because the fourth is quite nice.

I would say I like the sound of the the second and third the best so far.  The second is so playful and fun and the third is so mysterious and regal.  The fourth has a beautiful section in the middle but then comes back with devilish fury which has me worried. 

My only beaf with the second one is that it seems that Chopin opens with some awesome ideas and then just repeats them over and over for 12 minutes.  How much technical difference is there between the second and the third ones?  My teacher thinks the second would be a push for my technique so if that is the easiest then that rules out any of the others.   I hear a tremolo type thing happening in the bass of the third one nearer the end and if that's on weaker fingers then I know I can't do it yet. 

[phil13]

I vouch for the 3rd.

It's certainly not the easiest, but it's one of the most rewarding (the best, of course, being No.4, which is also the hardest)

No.2 is nice, but like you said, I feel it would be better if there was more to it.

My teacher says that unlike the Ballades, the Scherzi aren't clearly different in terms of technical difficulty. I, however, think otherwise:

Easy- No.2- No.1- No.3- No.4- Difficult

They're all close to each other, but there are slight variants in what they need that separates them.

Phil

[jacquie]

I have learned the Scherzo #2 and will be playing it for my Senior Recital on August 12th.  It will be the last in the hour program and probably my favorite.  It seemed to have been a favorite of Rubinstein also, as he played it often in concerts.
      My edition has 27 pages.  There are several repeats.  BUT to play the left hand on the third and forth pages cleanly and clearly takes some practice.  Also, the desending arpeggio in the right hand on the second page needs to be played clear as a bell.  It is easier than the other scherzos but about two thirds of the way through becomes like a fury for about five or six pages.  I challenge anyone to say that is easy!!  I still struggle with sections of that part.  It is a pull between completely letting go to ride the wave and keeping the rhythm even so it doesn't get out of control.  The result after some hard work is a Chopin masterpiece that is loved by most who play and hear the piece.  Good luck!!
                                                                              Jacquie

[lagin]

Edit: found the sheets to the other scherzos now, so don't worry about tremolo question.  Thank you for outlining exactly what the hard parts of the 2nd one are jacquie.  That sort of stuff is perfect.  Let's rule out number 4 all together, for I agree it sounds out of my league - though that middle section is to die for!  So out of numbers 1 and 3, does anyone know what particular areas are the most challenging like jacquie laid out for number 2?   Sometimes looks can be deceiving and it would be neat to hear from those who have played them.

[bella musica]

I've played the first 2 scherzi and personally I found no. 1 to be easier than no. 2.  I'm not super familiar with the 4th scherzo so I can't say anything about it.  I love the sparkly descending passages in the 3rd one though.  You have to watch out for the tricky octaves though!  Some people have trouble with them, not sure how well-developed your octave technique is.

[nicco]

Ive had the pleasure of playing no 3, wich i can absolutely recommend. The first section is filled with octaves and staccato playing, and is very demanding in terms of making it clear and not overpedaling it. The middle section is strange, beacuse you might think the descending arpeggios is the hardest part, but they fit the hand rather nicely, instead i found playing the theme, getting the sound i wanted was harder in terms of musicality. The Scherzo ends with a thrilling coda that takes a lot of practice but is super fun to play

[lagin]

Thanks for the input everyone.  It seems, from gathering what everyone has said (and yes, actually using the search function!) that the order of difficulty is generally 1, 2, 3, 4, the same order that they are presented in.  I don't know how good my octaves are really, because I haven't played much lately that uses tons of them, but I have a reach of a 10th so I think it's just a matter of how flexible my wrist is rather than an issue of reaching.  And speed, of course. 

[kriskicksass]

I don't know why everyone says the difficulty is 1, 2, 3, 4. I've only played No. 2 (which I still don't give a technically clean performance of...  ), but my teacher has told me that he would put them at 2, 3, 1, 4. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[bella musica]

No. 2 has some LH stretches that are awkward for a small hand... just a consideration. 

[kriskicksass]

No. 2 has some LH stretches that are awkward for a small hand... just a consideration. 

If we're thinking of the same part (the harmonic extension of the catalina as it leads into the coda?), then it awkward even for big hands. I can play a 10th and stretch an 11th, but that was still giving me trouble until I learned to 'hop' from the bass note up the the rest of the group.

[lagin]

Okay, I'm really torn between the 2nd and the 3rd.  How much difference in technical difficulty is there between them?  I like the themes in both of them, but the 2nd one repeats too much and I get bored, though it has more ideas to repeat with.  The 3rd one however could use more themes, but is a few minutes shorter which helps make up for it.  It repeats alot too which annoys me, but at least the difference in length helps out with that.

     2nd = more "stuff" but longer (would be perfect if it didn't repeat sooooo much)
     3rd = less "stuff" but shorter  (would be perfect if there was even just one more theme)

So I think it comes down to what can I actually play. 

I want to play half of each . 

Btw, I can't tell from "scrolling" on the computer, but are all these repeats in essence the same notes for the most part?  Wondering if I only have to memorize half of what it appears to be.

[quantum]

Hmm no mention of no.1....  It is not as tricky as it sounds.  Yes it has it's problem spots, but they keep repeating - so if you master it in one section you do the same in many other sections too. 

All the scherzos have repititions that are written out in full - so you are not learning that many pages.  Yes themes repeat a lot, and that is part of the musical challenges of the scherzos, you have to do things musically that don't make all the repeats sound the same - you have to let the themes evolve througout the performance. 

Maybe more ideas to help you decide:
1) demonic fury, with a christmas carol in the middle, and some more demonic fury

2) mysterious, sweet long flowing melodies, many parts like a love song, heroic and triumphant ending

3) driving octaves, with a chorale in the centre with wonderful pianistic effects

4) sophisticated, mature, playful, some parts go like the wind, THE middle section


I guess questions to ask  yourself:
Do you like octave playing (3)?  or would you prefer more melodic motifs (2)? 

[cloches_de_geneve]

I agree with quantum in terms of no 1. Why no mention of it? It's totally extatic in terms of rage (A) and sweet longing (B). I terms of difficulty some say it is the easiest, others that it is the most difficult after no. 4.

[lagin]

Number one scared me in the beginning, I mean in terms of being able to pull it off.  But since you guys brought it up, I shall have another listen to it.  I don't think I ever gave it a fair listen after the opening, so I shall. 

I think it kind of reminds me of a fantastic dance. 

Quantum, I love the descriptions, they are quite accurate, though I would add quite playful to the 2nd one and majestic to the middle section of the 3rd one. 

Okay, now that I have been listening while I type this, I think my decision includes number one now as well.  I have decided I like number 3 more than number 2 (though still might do number 2 since it's a bit easier). 

So now I'm debating between number 3 and 1.........ahhhh.... they're all so good!  And they're all so different and I love them all. 

I might have to go with number 3, though, because you know the feeling when you listen to something and it just "grabs" you?  It was like that for number 3 with me (still is whenever I listen to it), but if my teacher thinks it's too hard next week then at least I have lots of other terrific options. 

So in conclusion, hopefully no. 3, and if not, I'll be back debating between 1 and 2.

Thanks everyone!

[burstroman]

1 & 4, but especially 1!

[nicco]

great choice lagin, you wont regret it 

[bradley]

No 3 and if not No 2. Both very useful and well loved 

[lagin]

Hey guys, she said I can do the 3rd, or at least "give it a go."  I was wondering if we could extend this topic to include Chopin's Ballades as well.  It would be interesting to see how people list their difficulty amongst the scherzi.  There are topics on each set individually, but could people give their opinion from easiest to hardest of all 8 together?  Something similar to this, except I am just absolutely guessing here, and won't attempt to list them all, as I'm far from an expert.

1.  Scherzo no. 1
2.  Ballade no. 3
3.  Scherzo no. 2
4.
5.
6.
7.  Scherzo no. 4
8.  Ballade no. 4

[kriskicksass]

There's a topic on this somewhere where Bernhard gives his ranking. I don't quite remember it, but I remember it being somewhat similar to my own, so I'll give that and leave the searching up to you:

1. Scherzo No. 2
2. Scherzo No. 3
3. Scherzo No. 1
4. Ballade No. 3
5. Scherzo No. 4
6. Ballade No. 1
7. Ballade No. 2
8. Ballade No. 4

[brewtality]

I haven't learnt the first scherzo seriously, but I've had a bash through it and I think it is much harder than the third ballade.

[kriskicksass]

I haven't learnt the first scherzo seriously, but I've had a bash through it and I think it is much harder than the third ballade.

I'm inclinded to believe that. On that list I would consider the 1st Scherzo interchangable with the 3rd Ballade and the 1st and 2nd Ballades interchangable, too. They're all so difficult that it's hard (if not impossible) to actually rank their difficulties.

[desordre]

Dear Iagin:
  I will echo what Mr. Kris wrote:

They're all so difficult that it's hard (if not impossible) to actually rank their difficulties.

  I'm really not against rankings, and ordering of pieces. It may be very helpful and prevent some great mistakes when you're talking about Chopin's Nocturnes or Valses, for instance. However, the Scherzi (and the Ballades, why not?) are the composer's summa: you'll find a lot of technical issues, and very hard parts in any of them. So, my advice is to pick up the one that you love the most. You think of number 3? So, go on and prepare yourself for a couple of years till it become what it is.
  Notice that we don't know each other, and so I don't know how good you are. Then don't take the following question personally: are you really in your time to play such a piece? I just ask you because you seem to try avoiding extra "headache", and I'm sorry to tell you that any of the Scherzi will be plenty of head and body and hand "aches"...
  Best wishes, and very good luck!

[lagin]

Well there's 4 reasons I'm avoiding headache.

1.  My teacher would just null - in - void anything I picked that was too challenging, so I'm trying to step into these big pieces in a logical way.  I think she was already a bit sketchy about me trying the scherzo.

2.  The reason she would null - in - void it, is this is part of an exam repertoire and I'm aiming for 90% or higher if possible on it (like she got) and you can fail if your technique is not up to the par of the pieces you choose.

3.  I already am just starting a Bach Prelude and Fugue, entire Schubert Sonata (though a shorter one albeit), Rachmaninoff Prelude, Bartok dance, and Un Sospiro, so I must be careful to pick something that still leaves me plenty of time to learn all this other exam repertoire.

4.  My goal is to have it all up to concert standard in just over a year (maybe a year and a half) and then audition for university, so I'm under a bit of a deadline to start, learn, and finish it all.


But you're right.  If it was just me and I was just learning for my own enjoyment then I would just do whatever I liked.  And whatever I pick will be a stretch for my present abilities, so the trick is finding a piece that won't exceed them, but at the same time, developes them as much as possible. 

[desordre]

 Dear Iagin:
 I'm not here to "win" this case, but I have to tell you something. The reasons you list make me think that it's not your time to try a scherzo. Let me tell you why.

1.  My teacher would just null - in - void anything I picked that was too challenging, so I'm trying to step into these big pieces in a logical way.  I think she was already a bit sketchy about me trying the scherzo.

If you trust your teacher, maybe you should listen to her. I'm a teacher myself, and had similar situations a lot of times. In no way I think that "the teacher is always right". However, a good teacher, one that - as I said - you can trust probably know your possibilities better than you.

2.  The reason she would null - in - void it, is this is part of an exam repertoire and I'm aiming for 90% or higher if possible on it (like she got) and you can fail if your technique is not up to the par of the pieces you choose.

Hmm...is it reasonable you risk your high pass because you make a bad choice? Remember that if the people that will exam you are professional, they would not be impressed by the difficulty of the repertory, but the way you handle it. Of course that if you make very well a hard repertory it's great. Anyway, don't think that a Scherzo in your program per se could do anything for you.

3.  I already am just starting a Bach Prelude and Fugue, entire Schubert Sonata (though a shorter one albeit), Rachmaninoff Prelude, Bartok dance, and Un Sospiro, so I must be careful to pick something that still leaves me plenty of time to learn all this other exam repertoire.

  Do you really need another problem piece? I'll say that with Rach & Liszt you could call a day. In the other hand, your program with the Chopin will be too nineteenthish. If the decision was mine, I surely would let the Scherzo to the next "season", and choose instead some contemporary piece.
 Question: is this your first Bach's WTC?

4.  My goal is to have it all up to concert standard in just over a year (maybe a year and a half) and then audition for university, so I'm under a bit of a deadline to start, learn, and finish it all.

Such a great goal. And I know that depending where you're applying to, you have to present a piece such that. Time to think: another half or entire year of preparation before the test?
 Excuse me for digging too much in your personal issues, but sometimes a sight from outside can be helpful. I hope so!
 Best wishes!

[lagin]

Hey Desordre, no worries with all the questions.  I'll try to answer them, but let me know if you have more.

Don't worry, I'm listening to my teacher.  Actually, I had suggested a nocturne in the first place, but she thought it would be better to do something more interesting, and suggested perhaps Scherzo no. 2 and told me she'ld take a look at the score to see if I could handle it, but to keep looking in the mean time until I found something that really "grabbed" me.  So the next week I came back with Scherzo no. 3.  She listened to it and said to "leave it with her."  And then she started bringing up the nocturne again so I thought maybe she was thinking we should still go with that afterall.  Then we did my lesson and when I turned to go she said, "Aren't you going to take the Chopin Scherzo music with you?"  To which I replied that I thought she wanted to think about it more first.  And then she told me to "give it a go."  So that's why I said she was hesitant, but it was her call in the end.

Yes, the thought of losing a chance at distinction due to harder repertoire had crossed my mind, but I figured that my teacher probably knew what she was doing, and if I HAD to take an extra half year or so, I COULD do it, and it would probably be worth it in the long run.   I was thinking that I'm going to get hit with some pretty hefty pieces in university and it would be good to have a couple under my belt already to help prepare me.   What do you think?   

You're very right about the Liszt.  It will be my other "challenge."  I mentioned to my teacher that it was a hard yesterday, but she told me that she thinks I can do it.   The Rachmaninoff I'm not finding that difficult, but of course, I'm only at half speed since I'm still memorizing the notes, so we'll see.

No, it's not my first WTC, I did the p/f in c minor from book one for my grade 9 exam, but for my grade 10, I did a few movements (including the fugue), from his Cappricio on the Absence of a Most Beloved Brother.  So it's my second p/f, but my 3rd fugue. 

If it helps, the specifics of my current pieces are:

Bach p/f in f# minor, book 2 WTC.  (teacher's suggestion)

Schubert sonata in A +, D 664  (my idea, but she liked it and since I have big hands said I can do it)

Chopin (my teacher wants me to do one by him because I haven't yet), hopefully scherzo
no. 3 

Rachmaninoff prelude in g minor, op. 23, no. 5 (alla marcia)  (my idea, but she said it's a fun piece and I can handle it)

Bartok Roumanian Dance op. 8a, no. 1 (her suggestion)

Liszt Un Sospiro  (my idea and she said she thinks I can do it - suggested Chopin's "harp" etude as another possibility, but let me choose). 

It is a bit 19th century "ish," but we were counting on the Bartok to shake up the Romantic mood a bit.  They give 6 categories that you have to pick from.  The first is Bach, the second is a Classical sonata (they put Schubert in there, so I guess they were thinking "Viennese School"), the third is Romantic, the fourth is early 20th century, the fifth is late 20th century, and the last is a romantic or 20th century etude.  They have which composers go into which category, too.  The only thing I could have really done is picked a Mozart/Haydn/Beethoven sonata, but then why did they put Grieg and Schubert in there?  Somebody had to pick it .  So yeah, if I didn't do something by Chopin, it would still have to be by one of his contemporaries for that section of the exam, and my teacher wants me to at least have played something by him before going off to university.  I could have maybe switch out the Rachmaninoff for some Debussy, but since it's almost memorized now, I'd rather just stick with it.

To answer your other question, I was hoping to be done this August 2007, but of course, I can always hit the January 2008 session if I don't make it, but it would be nice to be done as soon as possible, so I can start auditioning for universities.   June 2007 I ruled out due to the fact that even if they're learned by then, I want them to be really good for the exam.  But those are the 3 exam sessions that come every year. 

I think that covers everything.  Since you're a teacher too, I welcome your thoughts.

[desordre]

  Dear Iagin:
  Good to know that you're tuned with your teacher. These minor questions are very normal, and healthy to the process.
  I don't know how old are you, but it almost don't matter: take the time you need to enrol at the University. Let me tell you about what happened with me. I made my mind to pursuit music as a professional career when I was 16. However, due to a great doubt about the actual possibility of earning my life beeing a musician, I went to Law School (believe it or not). At the same time, started taking classes with a very very good teacher. This way were the next two years, till I did the audition and engage myself with the undergraduate. Results? As good as it gets. These two years were not lost, and I did in no time regret about: "if I went to music earlier".
  About the course itself, you're very right about thinking of pieces that can be helpful. Despite the fact that you will have to study twice more (if you really want to make it great, as I think you do), and confront yourself with a lot of "headaches", have some music as the Chopin already done is a good idea. More than that, however, is an almost subjective question: you will be, directly or not, in a competition in the University. Sometimes it's really annoying, but that's the way it is. A list of some advanced pieces that you can actually play will certainly make things a bit easier.
  Liszt is Liszt. Period.
  Your repertory is very cool. Anyway, as I thought, you don't have a late 20th c. piece. Indeed, the problem in that sense isn't with the Chopin, but with Rach and Bartok together. Hmmm...the Rach is halfway there...and I will never in my whole life say to anyone to quit a Bartok...  Wanna know? Do the whole thing and take some extra time: you'll have a f****** great repertory, able to make any audition that you want.
  One last thing: I really love Schubert, and enjoy a lot hearing someone playing his sonatas. Anyway, get some information about the Course you want to go, cause sometimes people are a bit narrow-minded and the item "Classical Sonata" is read "Beethoven-don't-even-think-about-the-easier-ones Sonata". Sad but true.
  Best wishes!

[lagin]

Thank you for your information!  The RCM classify Bartok as "late" 20th century, which is odd, isn't it?  We were talking about that a while back.  I was originally thinking of doing some Barber, but my teacher thought that I really should play something by Bartok since he's another composer I haven't played before.  I'm really enjoying it.  His stuff is so fun to play. 

I actually was noticing that some universities restrict their sonata auditions to Mozart/Beethoven/Haydn.  But some just say to audition with 2 contrasting pieces which would be perfect!  I thought if I really needed a more "classical" sonata I could either 1. relearn the 2 movements of the Pathetique and tack on the third when it comes time, or 2. learn a Haydn sonata that I've had my eye on which would even further boost my repertoire list.  But one thing at a time.

(P.S. I'm 21)

[verywellmister]

lagin, which Bartok dance are you doing?
I seem to be going through a Bartok phase now.

[lagin]

I'm not doing any from his set of 6, but from his set of 2.  Op. 8a, no. 1.  It's the one that has that catchy little theme throughout it in different octaves and keys, and then in the middle it has an slower lyrical section, but with a fast rumbling left hand part against the melody. 

[pianochild]

Number 3 and no 1 are my favourite. You can see them on youtube.com

[shadow88]

I'm playing the 2nd Scherzo at the moment and I think it`s way more easy than the first, which shows that technical skills are very individual.For you I would also recommend the 2nd one.

[m]

There's a topic on this somewhere where Bernhard gives his ranking. I don't quite remember it, but I remember it being somewhat similar to my own, so I'll give that and leave the searching up to you:

1. Scherzo No. 2
2. Scherzo No. 3
3. Scherzo No. 1
4. Ballade No. 3
5. Scherzo No. 4
6. Ballade No. 1
7. Ballade No. 2
8. Ballade No. 4

I'd respectfully disagree with this ranking. Having played all of those at some points of my life, I'd say Scherzo No.4 is BY FAR more difficult than even Ballade No.4 both, technically and musically.

[gerryjay]

I'd respectfully disagree with this ranking. Having played all of those at some points of my life, I'd say Scherzo No.4 is BY FAR more difficult than even Ballade No.4 both, technically and musically.

hey marik!
why don't you write down you own ranking? it's really cool to compare these lists.
best!

[thalberg]

This is a very, very interesting and powerful interpretation of Scherzo No. 3.

This person's interpretation of the coda is extremely original and I love it.  Don't miss the coda!

[pianorin]

I think scherzo no.1 is hard but my teacher feels that it's easier than no.2.. I love scherzo 1,2 and 3 very much... Never heard recordings of no.4 so I'm not sure about it. Oh yes, I love all the 4 ballades.. They are my heavens... especially 1 and 4..

I personally recommend scherzo no.2..

[berman]

1. Scherzo no. 2
2. Ballade no. 2
3. Ballade no. 1
4. Scherzo no. 1
5. Ballade no. 3
6. Scherzo no. 3
7. Scherzo no. 4
8. Ballade no. 4

[lexin]

If I choose,I'll choose the 1,NO 2 has lots of people played,it sounds very boring.I just say my impression.

[ch101]

no.4

[danhuyle]

Why not learn all four?

These are just my opinions based on my experiences with the set.

No1 - Easy to memorize as a whole, rhythmically the easiest
No2- Rhythm control of the introduction is tough as well as the climaxes
No3 - Hardest part of the piece is that trill in the last section. Otherwise the easiest of the set
No4 - Syncopated melody coupled with tough to handle rhythm - I'd put this as my last choice to learn

[emilye]

Oh in my opinion 'easy' scherzo is scherzo no. 1. Many people play this piece and very often it is the first scherzo in pianist's life. No. 3 is quite difficult, but I think and for me no. 3 is less difficult than no. 2.  yeah it is only my opinion but the final in scherzo 3 isn't very knotty, and if you like octaves it will be very nice experience. 4 isn't very difficult technically but musically yes. If you like challenges pick 2 or 3 scherzo. I recommend Pogorelich's performance from Chopin Piano Competition - Scherzo no. 3 , and no. 2 - Martha Argerich, Sviatoslav Richter.

[danhuyle]

Oh in my opinion 'easy' scherzo is scherzo no. 1. Many people play this piece and very often it is the first scherzo in pianist's life. No. 3 is quite difficult, but I think and for me no. 3 is less difficult than no. 2.  yeah it is only my opinion but the final in scherzo 3 isn't very knotty, and if you like octaves it will be very nice experience. 4 isn't very difficult technically but musically yes. If you like challenges pick 2 or 3 scherzo. I recommend Pogorelich's performance from Chopin Piano Competition - Scherzo no. 3 , and no. 2 - Martha Argerich, Sviatoslav Richter.

Yes Ivo Pogorelich for Scherzo No3 for the win. Yundi Li and Vladimir Ashkenazy are long the same lines. 

The structure of the 4 Scherzi are straight forward. If your goal is to play the set, then start with the one that's most comfortable. Now for ballades I went 1,3,2,4