Take me to your leader-Roswell Incident

[gilad]

i am tired and it is 4 am. i got carried away reading about this incident after surfing upon a bbc documentry accidently about it. its an hour long and i found it on google by flook.
anyway,
i dont believe in miracles, psychics, mediums, god, aliens. (my mother just entered the room and i screamed like a baby, all this stuff got me on edge) thing is i dont disbelieve either. in fact i have often dreamed things that materialise, i hate that, i dont believe i it yet i have experience with it.
anyway.
seeing as tonight is the first time in my life i have heard of roswell, what do posssibly more clued up people think about it? military experiment gone wrong? why all the secracy? cold war? who knows.....
i saw an astromaut who was the 6th man to walk on the moon claimed it was real( he "heard" from sources in the pentagon"), i get the feeling he may have been a bit of a looney.
anyone know anything about this or have a serious opinion on it? im interested. i just can't work out why the whole thing is still shrouded in myth.

[pianistimo]

why work with myth?  why not concentrate on what you know as fact?  even if there are spirit beings (which the bible says there are) - and they do things magically or not - would it affect our spiritual walk with God?  nope.  they are powerless to do anything to us or for us or against us.  especially if we ask them to leave 'in Christ's name.' 

God, thru His word shows us how open and truthful He is.  there is no 'shadow' or 'turning' (changing ways) with Him.  He is light and truth.  He appeared (either in dreams or in brightness to moses and paul) - the brightness was too much for either of them and they fell on their faces.  sounds alienish - but - then He SPOKE.  and His word made sense.  He was direct.

the angels are always spoken of as appearing as men.  just like us - except the ability to show themselves and then disappear.  i don't doubt that odd phenomenon happen to a few people who witness the speaking or act of an angel - but i don't depend on that (pictures of it) to prove my faith.  i believe there are angels and devils and that even the anti-christ will do things that seem 'divine.'  and yet, satan's divine plan is the opposite of what he says.  if he speaks thru a person - you can bet they are lying in some way or other.  basically take what they say and make it the opposite.

if you get someone telling u something or making u look at a distant supposed alien abduction site - tell them that it isn't very important to you because you have work to do.  the work of God.  wasting ur time with other work keeps you from doing the real work.  getting the gospel of salvation to the world.

ps in revelations there are places that talk about the modes of transportation of spirit beings.  i suppose that they are very different than ours - and usually not seen by our eyes being that they are spirit.  if the government has vehicles that mimic that - who cares.  i certainly don't care.  a vehicle with a regular human being in it is still simply a vehicle that is still limited by time and space.  God is not - so he's more miraculous to me.

pss  God speaks to us today by His Word - the Bible.  when Christ returns, He hopes to find faith.  what if people turned against Him (our Great God) because they were hyped about an alien invasion (hollywood stuff).  God is said to fight greatly at armaggedon and win - who wants to be on the losing side?

[cziffra]

why work with myth?  why not concentrate on what you know as fact?

God

[musik_man]

I think that the most obvious arguement against Roswell is that based off of our current understanding of physics(which bars faster than light travel) the odds that any aliens would try to reach us is about 0.00%.  This is of course assuming that there even is intelligent life other than us in the universe.

[allthumbs]

This is of course assuming that there even is intelligent life other than us in the universe.

I'm not so sure there is even intelligent life on Earth.

I can imagine some alien life form monitoring our little spec of matter floating in space and thinking how barbaric and unsophisticated we are.

Can you blame them if they haven't contacted us if they indeed exist?

[pianistimo]

for me, God is fact.  'the heavens declare the glory of God...'  when you look at the stars and the fact they have 'formations.'  the moon - with a face.  for me, it is not 'random' but planned from the beginning.  for me, it is fact.

take a look here:  www.cryingvoice.com/Evolution/index.html  and
www.cryingvoice.com/Evolution/GloryofGod.html  'when i consider the heavens, the work of Thy fingers; the moon and the stars...'

as musik_man says - we have limitations right now.  we cannot, ourselves, be 'transported.'  but, people in the bible WERE.  enoch, because of his righteousness and obedience was not found.  neither moses body.  or anyone whom God did not want 'venerated.'  He did not want certain bodies kept and venerated because that would be worshipping man.   the apostles always told people (even when they did miracles thru Christ's name) not to worship them but the one true God.  how he took enoch?  i don't have a clue.  but, noone could find the body.  also, Christ.  i suppose joshua, too. wasn't he 'taken by a whirlwind.'  whatever God decides to do - it's pretty much done.  He has the power over death - and yet, perhaps He allowed them not to feel the pain of death - but simply 'took them' (saving them for the ressurrection).  'as in adam ALL die - but in Christ all are made alive.'  'it is appointed for each man to die...and then the ressurrection.'  'david sleeps.' 

what WILL be strange - is the prophecy in matthew - 'one taken and the other left.'  i don't think this is metaphorical.  i think that when one becomes aware of the warnings in the bible - they will be transported by God miraculously in some places and in others simply leave.  we are told in matt. 24:16 (at least the people in jerusalem) 'when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by daniel, the prophet, standing in the holy place (temple) then let those who are in JERUSALEM flee to the mountains.  let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

sodom and gommorrah was destroyed, but not before lot, his family and wife were told to flee. same with jerusalem.  daniel 9:27 '...one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.'  (so, it's someone who comes in the name of 'peace' - divides jerusalem - and then makes the entire place a battleground).  some say it is when jerusalem is equally divided between the jews/christians and muslims. 

a description of the angel gabriel is in dan. 10:6 'his body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightening, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult...'  and yet he spoke plain and comforting words to daniel in verse 11.  in chapter 12, michael, the 'great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise.  and there will be a time of distresss such as never occurred since there was a nation (israel) until that time; and at that time your people , everyone who is found written in the book (of life), will be rescued. 

it's as if they are suddenly transported (just as matthew mentions 'those that are alive at his coming...will meet him in the air')  there is even a song that these people will sing at the return of Christ.  the song of moses 'great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the nations.  Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name?  for Thou alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed.'  no death will be able to touch these people after Christ's return.  they meet him in the air.  sounds alienish - but really just a manifestation of the Spirit of God at work to redeem us as He said He would.

matt. 24:31 'and He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  interesting the use of 'sky' because it could be that God allows the ressurrection of both the living and dead - the dead first - and then a gathering of all to one place by the angels.  when this happens it will be way more than an alien abduction like thing - and probably quite shocking to see for those left upon the earth.  noone will be able to harm anyone who has turned from physical to spirit.  'we shall all be changed...in a moment...in a twinkling of an eye - at the last trumpet.'

[timothy42b]

pianistimo, get a grip.  Faith and facts are not the same thing.  Sheesh!

Nothing wrong with faith, but as soon as you equate it with facts, you totally lose your ability to detect any other kind of bs. 

I cannot prove it, but I think it is highly unlikely we have ever been visited by aliens.  If you listen to the gullible, there are daily abductions and sexual abuses, but somehow no evidence is left for any of them.  I suppose it is possible just one of them is true, but I htink you're perfectly safe discarding them all.

If aliens got here, that is proof they are 1) far more advanced than us, and 2) survivors.  And item 2) suggests they destroy any inferior race they come into contact with.  Therefore the fact we exist is considerable evidence we have never been contacted.

That logic isn't original to me, by the way, it has been quite widely discussed. 

[thalbergmad]

why work with myth?  why not concentrate on what you know as fact?  even if there are spirit beings (which the bible says there are) - and they do things magically or not - would it affect our spiritual walk with God?  nope.  they are powerless to do anything to us or for us or against us.  especially if we ask them to leave 'in Christ's name.' 

God, thru His word shows us how open and truthful He is.  there is no 'shadow' or 'turning' (changing ways) with Him.  He is light and truth.  He appeared (either in dreams or in brightness to moses and paul) - the brightness was too much for either of them and they fell on their faces.  sounds alienish - but - then He SPOKE.  and His word made sense.  He was direct.

the angels are always spoken of as appearing as men.  just like us - except the ability to show themselves and then disappear.  i don't doubt that odd phenomenon happen to a few people who witness the speaking or act of an angel - but i don't depend on that (pictures of it) to prove my faith.  i believe there are angels and devils and that even the anti-christ will do things that seem 'divine.'  and yet, satan's divine plan is the opposite of what he says.  if he speaks thru a person - you can bet they are lying in some way or other.  basically take what they say and make it the opposite.

if you get someone telling u something or making u look at a distant supposed alien abduction site - tell them that it isn't very important to you because you have work to do.  the work of God.  wasting ur time with other work keeps you from doing the real work.  getting the gospel of salvation to the world.

ps in revelations there are places that talk about the modes of transportation of spirit beings.  i suppose that they are very different than ours - and usually not seen by our eyes being that they are spirit.  if the government has vehicles that mimic that - who cares.  i certainly don't care.  a vehicle with a regular human being in it is still simply a vehicle that is still limited by time and space.  God is not - so he's more miraculous to me.

pss  God speaks to us today by His Word - the Bible.  when Christ returns, He hopes to find faith.  what if people turned against Him (our Great God) because they were hyped about an alien invasion (hollywood stuff).  God is said to fight greatly at armaggedon and win - who wants to be on the losing side?

You really have lost it this time me old sweetie.

Thal

[prometheus]

why work with myth?  why not concentrate on what you know as fact?

Uuh?

As a child I used to believe aliens would abduct me. The 'inspiration' came from books and tv. Of course it never happened. Actually I didn't really believe it would happen but it did freak me out every once and then. I even had a period where I had trouble getting any sleep. I think I was 12 at that point. And if aliens would actually abduct me, wouldn't that be an amazing experience? I mean, I am a Star Trek fan... "Remembers the episode about this girl who desperately wants to have sex with an alien after she meets Riker... I laughed so so so hard..."

I could hold a speech about light speed limiting space travel, about how naive people are etc etc. But in the end it doesn't have to do with aliens themself, does it? It has to do with the phobia and how you handle it.

I cannot prove it, but I think it is highly unlikely we have ever been visited by aliens.

This would reverse the burden of proof. If you do that we have a long long list of things that need to be disproven before we can assume they don't happen. It would mean an invasion of all things people have ever imagined.


If you look back at the Roswell indicent you will see that all the 'impressive testemonies' actually came long after the incident happened. This means that the incidents are highly undependable because memories can distort over time a great amount.

Furtermore, the whole explenation of a high tech balloon to measure radiation of possible sovjet nuclear tests is quite convincing since these tests were held, a lot of balloons were used and the mission was highy top secret. Also, the balloons were made of aluminized plastic, which would have been totally amazing to New Mexico farmers in 1947. They would never have seen anything like that. It fits the stories about 'exotic metal' that was very light, would bend but then fold back into its original shape. Plastics only became household materials after 1950. And I think the same goes for aluminium foil.

[thalbergmad]

If you look back at the Roswell indicent you will see that all the 'impressive testemonies' actually came long after the incident happened. This means that the incidents are highly undependable because memories can distort over time a great amount.

Prometheus has a very valid point here. In addition, many of the books that have been written about this incident vary on several points.

More interesting and more recent, is the "Rendelsham Forest" incident. Anyone interested in UFO's should read up on this.

Thal

[prometheus]

"This means that the incidents are highly undependable..."

'Incidents' should be 'witnesses'.

[gilad]

cool thanks yall. i have heard of the incident thalberg mentions, and yes prometheus i think that theory is the most likely, it seems very plausible to me, more so than than aliens. did anyone see the documentry? the biopsy of one of the "aliens" its at the end of this doccy...watch it if you have time, its pretty compelling....

https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3191107826436150453

[prometheus]

Even the believers think that video is a fake.

And with most hoaxes the believers actually believe it until the creators admit it was a hoax. And even then some people believe.


You don't want to know what kinds of stories are out there that people believe. Really, all those amazing claims about things outside the mainstream one can rule out as a fairy tale. Even when compelling evidence seems to be given. If there is just one guy talking abot his theory it doesn't really matter what he is saying. If he has some skill then he can sound believeble.

I mean, I once listened to an hour of David Icke. When you are finished it actually hits you as plausable. You lose total perception of the actual facts. It is not very hard to do. There is a whole market with books on strange theories in almost every field of thought.

[gilad]

hehe, yes i forgot to mention  that i knew the film was a fake as i read in one report. apparently the idiot producer suad it was based on the real thing, which was badly damged for some reason, he then claimed that 5% of the final film is actually part of the original. yes i think the whole thing is a hoax, it is quite amusing how people make up stories. im going to look into the forest incdent, sounds interesting, i dont believe it, but im interested. i guess you could say im more interested in the human pereption of these situations and the stories that are conjured up. it is an interesting look in to an aspect of human behaviour, a very strange one.

[prometheus]

In all those UFO incidents you don't believe that nothing happened. You just don't make all these kinds of far fetched assumptions. I mean, if there is a strange light in a forest then it is kind of far fetched to claim it is extraterrestrials visiting, to say the least. It could be anything and a space plane from dozens of lightyears away is very very very unlikely, to stay using understantements.

Only when you already know your conclusion and the only thing you do is gather evidence to support it you will automatically conclude it were extraterrestrials. But then you aren't making any analysis at all. If you present or gather selective evidence you can make a case for anything. Trying to find evidence that rules out your theory and then not finding any is what proves it is true.

That's what physicists do. They postulate a theory and then try to conduct all kinds of far fetched experiments that produce results that are inconsistent with the predictions made by the postulated theory. Scientists need to look hard for all kinds of exceptions and special events otherwise useless theories will take hold and people will get a distorted view of what actually goes on.