Is it a conspiracy?

[elspeth]

I'm thoroughly bored of being single... but does anybody know what's happened to all the eligible batchelors? I'm starting to think they've all been kidnapped while I wasn't looking...

Seriously though, where to find a man worth having? There's none at work - I work mostly with women in an industry where what few men there are are either scary, married or gay (and combinations thereof!), and it's considered bad form to flirt with the customers... I'm already doing evening classes for work and there's none there, and I can't afford more classes unless I quit piano lessons... I'm allergic to nicotine so until the ban comes in there's currently only one bar in the city I live in that I can spend an evening in and I've yet to find anyone in there! Pubs and bars aren't really my scene anyway.

Where are the decent guys? Where do they vanish to after work? Is there some sinister conspiracy I haven't heard of, or are they just avoiding me?

[thalbergmad]

I is still single. so send me a picture of yourself and if you is reasonably fit, i might take you out to dinner (if you agree to pay half).

If you is a mingah, please don't bother. I have had more than my fair share of them.

Thal

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

My advice is to stay single. Not worth having a partner. Although I am a guy, I find relationships for the most part repulsive, because they simply make you lazy. I can't miss practice or miss any sort of studying just for the sakes of a partner. I find it very odious for a matter of fact any sort of social collaboration that isn't intellectually or emotionally developing. My advice for you is to stay single, and develop your own personal skills and develop your personality. I find many things that I love doing alone. Piano(of course), freewriting, reading, writing, etc.

[debussy symbolism]

I have never had a relationship and not want to have one.

[zheer]

  Hahahahaha, more and more women, in-particular western women avoid having a lasting reationship with men, the reason is simple, for personal economic and career advantages in modern world, also the feeling of freedom and empowerment derived from dominating the male species. Obviously there are some element of brain washing, promoted by the media, books, music, ideology ,feminist movement. Most importantly the realization that sexual satisfaction can be maualy fulfiled and furtilization scientifcally realized through sperm donation and genetic manipulation. Sadly this results in the break down of the traditional family , with the rise of more single parent or same sex parent family, thus the gradual decline on the importance of society and collective identety, thus the survival of the human species.

[debussy symbolism]

I take back my statement about being alone. I was quite depressed this morning so you could imagine that I would write of foul mood. It is taste. I do not like "hanging" out, but I would imagine others do. That is why they do it. Concerning answering your question? Don't look for guys, let them find you. Perhaps your playing will entice some of them. If you set youself to find some one, you might end up with a dumb guy. If a guy wants to be with you, he will see that you aren't stupid and you will get to determine if you want to go out with him

Hope this helps.

[elspeth]

Thanks for the offer, Thal, although somehow I think there are reasons for your singleness...

I'm trying the 'if you don't look someone great'll magically appear' approach but it doesn't seem to work. Possibly it doesn't help that I don't believe in magic.

[pianistimo]

i think it's hard to feel 'romantic' around people that you are in a work situation with - as you say.  and probably when you are at home - you are resting and getting refreshed.  so, as i see it- your window of opportunity is on the weekend.  perhaps playing piano in public places and meeting more musicians.  obviously, you have to have a musician of some form or other.  the last we talked - we were discussing conductors. ?! keep your sights on exactly the kind of man you want and actively look for them (say after concerts backstage?)  you can act like you're working (since you used to work as stage manager, right?) and then stop and say that you enjoyed the performance and hand them your card. 

[prometheus]

There aren't that many eligible singles. Just as there aren't that much eligible 'taken' ones.

I mean that there will be many people that are below average. I don't mean to say that the good ones are already taken. But it is true that those that are not taken yet probably failed at their relations. Either that or they never had any, which makes it even more dangerous.


This means that you need to compete with other females or you will have to settle for someone less eligible. And you also need to meet the right person at the right time. There are many semi--eligible people with not enough experience about what to do to build up a good and strong relationship.

[prometheus]

  Hahahahaha, more and more women, in-particular western women avoid having a lasting reationship with men, the reason is simple, for personal economic and career advantages in modern world,

Uuh, men don't cost money. Woman do. Though less then in the past. I

also the feeling of freedom and empowerment derived from dominating the male species.

I don't really see how ignoring the male part of the species equals dominating. Actually, females that want to dominate males end up having partners.

Obviously there are some element of brain washing, promoted by the media, books, music, ideology ,feminist movement.

Brain washing is often done with a goal. We are talking about a trend in popular culture in a very small segment of the world.

Most importantly the realization that sexual satisfaction can be maualy fulfiled and furtilization scientifcally realized through sperm donation and genetic manipulation.

Females don't have partners to get children. They get partners to help support raising the children. Single females that want a child select someone from their enviroment and have sex for the sole reason the Pope allows one to have sex: reproduction. Nature does the rest. Of course the child is then raised by the single mother.

Sadly this results in the break down of the traditional family, with the rise of more single parent or same sex parent family, thus the gradual decline on the importance of society and collective identety, thus the survival of the human species.

You classify your own apperent failure with the 'female species' (huh?) as a danger to the survival of the human species? The human species doesn't need your genes to survive.



The reason that females are more often single is not hard to understand, as you claim. Because if you look at their profile you will see they are high educated western young females. They have just realised that most males as assholes.

I am not saying that most females aren't assholes to males when it comes to relations with a sexual element.

[le_poete_mourant]

If you look, you'll never find one. 

You've just got to let him stumble into your life. 

[semme]

i like the following quote although im dont avouch for the truth of it:


women are like restrooms, either occupied or full with ****

[pianistimo]

elsbeth, i've got it.  barnowl, berrt, and pianowolfi are now declaring they missed me.  all from just exiting the scene.  now, as i see it,  the plan is...  you make yourself a known quantity and mysteriously disappear a lot.  they will wonder where you have gone and thus become interested to know where you keep disappearing. 

in my case, the gardening forums were just plain boring after two questions about hydrangias.  i was about to spam the forum - but thought better of it.  after all, i am a christian.  i must act with some degree of decorum.  espeically since i was fleeing this one's apparent loss for a day.

ps  thal is being nice, too.  all from two days of going missing.

[zheer]

You classify your own apperent failure with the 'female species' (huh?) as a danger to the survival of the human species? The human species doesn't need your genes to survive.


The reason that females are more often single is not hard to understand, as you claim. Because if you look at their profile you will see they are high educated western young females. They have just realised that most males as assholes.

I am not saying that most females aren't assholes to males when it comes to relations with a sexual element.

 

              Now now,calm down, most women not all are very ambitious which is good though rather bad at maintaining a "self-less" relation with the male species. Hence more aand more of the non male species adopt tipical male roles and characteristics, for instance one often see the female species in the world of work in suits working along side men in what has always been consider a primarely male working enviroment. Thus changing the psycological make-up of women through adopting a more agressive attitude to work family and life, sadly men are pushed to one side since women have taken most high powerd and managereal position.
        Know armed with this thought and this realization, women are able to survive financialy ,emotionaly and even biologicaly with-out men. Now imagin that you are a three or four year old boy growing up in a single family home,  this boy is usually brought up through financila hardship, sent to school and seems inferiour to most of his female students in class who seem to do much better.This boy will depart from school at 16 and into the world of work with very little education, he might have some reading and writting skills, but not much, we can for-see that he will go from job to job and survive on the little money he does get to buy food clothes tobaco, alcahol ect. i know since i was also in that position, working as labourer and any other low skilled jobs to keep me afloat and to buy me books, CD's, ticket to the theater. Anyway this 16 year old boy will marry and have children, as an adult he will find it hard to support his children, thus the mother of this three year old will take the full responsability, adopting the role of the father and mother. Sadly the biological father of this child will be thrown onto the street no need for him, i've seen it happen a number of time when i was young walking the streets of london with very little money and opportunity. Anyway what kind of message will this send to the new and up and coming generation of men, well not a good one, well not a good one for the non bourgeoisy whom have most privilages despight the gender of the child. So yes in answer to you question the survival of the species are at risk along with fabric of society.

[timothy42b]

Where are the decent guys? Where do they vanish to after work? Is there some sinister conspiracy I haven't heard of, or are they just avoiding me?

They are off doing the things they like to do.

Guys aren't much like girls.  We don't spend a whole lot of time doing things with the kind of people we like.  We mostly spend our time doing the things we like, with the people that are there too.  It is a subtle distinction but critical to your problem.

Of course you don't need a guy, and the more you think you do the more you will scare them off.  Desperation is the kiss of death.  But if you want one, then you have to hunt where they are.

Two approaches:  Figure out what things you like to do, and go there.  You will meet compatible guys.  Or, go where the guys are and learn to like what they like.  The stronger your personality, the more you need to be at plan A. 

But don't be too discriminating.  The meat hunter sees more game than the trophy hunter.  hee, hee. 

Guys like sports and that's where you'll find the largest numbers.  The kind of guys who like Nascar differs subtly from the kind who like golf.  Guys who watch sports on big screen TV are different from those who hang out at the gym.  Joining a team can be a way to meet large numbers.  But if you have no jock in you, you'll end up discouraged. 

If your taste runs to intellectuals you'll have to take classes.  If you want responsible guys lots of them go to church, out of obligation if nothing else.  And because even the longest evangelical sermon is usually shorter than pianistimo's posts.  <humor> 

You're a musician, so you do lots of musical stuff;  but you're a pianist, so you do all of it alone.  Join a band.  Community bands run about 30 people.  Orchestras are double.  Rock bands are small, but the crowds will be hitting on you nonstop. 

Musical or not, I think you have to join something and become part of a group.  Volunteer work, politics, environmental movement, feed the birds, etc.  Otherwise you're hunting where the game isn't. 

[ada]

Geez it doesn't have to be so complicated.

Elspeth, just chill out and enjoy your freedom. If you meet someone you like, don't be afraid to make the first move. If it happens, it happens. Don't try too hard. The best things happen when you're not looking for them.

Some of the posts here only highlight the massive gulf between the genders and the fact that a lot of blokes have absolutely no understanding of females and are basically, with all respect, a lot of misogynists with weird ideas about women in suits or in the workplace.

A man can be a soul mate and a lover and someone to be a father to your children. He will never be a girlfriend or even a best friend, and don't expect them to be. They simply don't have the capacity.

They do come in handy for taking out the garbage but there's a whole lot more to life than being chained to some ignorant, possessive man.

[prometheus]

Now now,calm down, most women not all are very ambitious which is good though rather bad at maintaining a "self-less" relation with the male species.

What? I don't really understand this phrase. I am afrain to misinterpret so I won't try.

Hence more and more of the non-male species adopt typical male roles and characteristics, for instance one often see the female species in the world of work in suits working along side men in what has always been consider a primarely male working enviroment.

Wow, Wow. Wait. So females are not allowed to wear suits? Aren't there female suits? As for suits, they are ugly but everyone wears them because they think western culture is superior because western culture is rich. Look at the middle east and asia. A lot of their leaders wear western suits, trying to invoke the idea that they are just as powerful as their western collegues, I guess.


So suits are a symbol of power. Not of males. Now, you apperently think having power is a male thing. This is your problem. Power has no gender. The idea of marking all kinds of things with gender is silly. Piano is for females, guitar is for males. Suits are for males. Being a CEO is for males. Being a nurse is for females. Males are better drivers. Females are better parents. Males should take care of their wife while their wife takes care of the children. Females work inside the house, males outside. Etc etc. All these things are constructions of power in the way Focault and Derrida propose.

Thus changing the psycological make-up of women through adopting a more agressive attitude to work family and life, sadly men are pushed to one side since women have taken most high powerd and managereal position.

Uuh, this is factually inaccurate.

Know armed with this thought and this realization, women are able to survive financialy ,emotionaly and even biologicaly with-out men.

And you think this is a problem and thus wrong?

Now imagin that you are a three or four year old boy growing up in a single family home,  this boy is usually brought up through financila hardship, sent to school and seems inferiour to most of his female students in class who seem to do much better.This boy will depart from school at 16 and into the world of work with very little education, he might have some reading and writting skills, but not much, we can for-see that he will go from job to job and survive on the little money he does get to buy food clothes tobaco, alcahol ect. i know since i was also in that position, working as labourer and any other low skilled jobs to keep me afloat and to buy me books, CD's, ticket to the theater. Anyway this 16 year old boy will marry and have children, as an adult he will find it hard to support his children, thus the mother of this three year old will take the full responsability, adopting the role of the father and mother. Sadly the biological father of this child will be thrown onto the street no need for him, i've seen it happen a number of time when i was young walking the streets of london with very little money and opportunity. Anyway what kind of message will this send to the new and up and coming generation of men, well not a good one, well not a good one for the non bourgeoisy whom have most privilages despight the gender of the child. So yes in answer to you question the survival of the species are at risk along with fabric of society.

I don't understand this. Surely it is impossible that this has something to do with the end of female oppression by men.

First off, you talk about a child raised by only one parent? When this happens then the parents are to blame because they failed. There are both male and female parents raising children without a partner. As for the reason for this, I also don't understand what this has got to do with gender issues. If parents fight and argue but stay together because of social pressure then the child will suffer as well. Who is responsible for conflict between parents differs in situation. I don't see why it has to be the female.

Also, the statistics are clear. Far more females get beaten up or killed by their male partners than the other way around.

But lets say that the parent largely fails. This doesn't mean the child is not able to learn to read and write. Also, if the child is male of female makes no difference. And I also don't understand why this child is inferior only to female classmates. Why female classmates?

If a person fails to learn to read and write in a country like the UK something is very wrong. I don't see how it is impossible to master these skills if you go to school. I mean, it would only be possible if you don't go to school at all. Or if the person is retarded.

Then we move on and this person buys alcohol and tobacco. Well, I don't see why females are to blame for these mistakes. Ok, then this person marries and gets children. But the person knows than he cannot support these children. Frankly this is another mistake he himself made. But for some reason the mother can manage? Why? If this is the case then they don't have the same education and social class. The female made the mistake of picking this failure as a partner. Seems she realised her mistake in your scenario by throwing him out. Then you claim she takes both the male and the female role. What do you mean? You think that supporting your children financially is the duty of the male? Why? Why didn't the male let down his partner and his children? A female doesn't generally throw out a male because he doesn't give her enough money. If this does happen he made the wrong choice.

So in your scenario males fail at life. But females take all responsibility and have to do it all on their own. And then you blame it on the females? It is the good-for-nothing males that are to blame here. Now you could just as well come up with a scenario where the females fails. But in your case the male fails. I don't see how this supports the idea that society should go back to males oppressing females.

[quasimodo]

Geez it doesn't have to be so complicated.

Elspeth, just chill out and enjoy your freedom. If you meet someone you like, don't be afraid to make the first move. If it happens, it happens. Don't try too hard. The best things happen when you're not looking for them.

But most often, they just don't happen  .

[quasimodo]

A female doesn't generally throw out a male because he doesn't give her enough money.

Are you sure of this ?

[prometheus]

Well, just as often as a male throws out a female because she can't give a 'proper' blowjob.

I must admit that I don't really know how often this happens.

[thalbergmad]

Well, just as often as a male throws out a female because she can't give a 'proper' blowjob.

If a woman can't do that properly then she should be thrown out.

What is the point of a relationship, if you can't get the basic essentials?

Thal

[zheer]

So in your scenario males fail at life. But females take all responsibility and have to do it all on their own. And then you blame it on the females? It is the good-for-nothing males that are to blame here. Now you could just as well come up with a scenario where the females fails. But in your case the male fails. I don't see how this supports the idea that society should go back to males oppressing females.

  No society should not go back to males oppressing female, but i am saying is that some young men do seem to fall behind females, and this starts very early in life ,from school usualy through little foughlt of their own, but more to do with the system and the increasing number of single parent families, its a fact that can be proven, thus its a fact that the increasing desire amongst women to remain single or to bring up children in single parent families as rather risky and often doomed too fail. Sadly this is a reality and it is a vicious cycle that is repeated time and time again.  One only needs to read or watch the news or even simply walk up and down various streets ,estates to see the crimes commited daily by young people, drugs,theft, murder are but a few of these crimes one can witness living in the suberbs of the city, the reason , to name a few no education, no money, no parent, no job, dicrimination, stereotyping, the authority controling the lives of the poor through various methods. Anyway dont get me started.
         We live in a ugly world the idea of living happy ever after, love and romance is a load of bull***t, one should stop watching love movies and stop chasing dreams, love and romance is only temporary. ( might be wrong).

[elspeth]

If nothing else it's reassuring, if slighly worrying, to know there are people out there who are even more cynical and jaded than I am!

I'm going to have to look again at my budget and try evening classes, I think. Although what in, I've no idea... all my serious interests are solitary pursuits! Piano, writing, wildlife photography... they're great and I love them but they're hardly sociable!

[thalbergmad]

Piano, writing, wildlife photography... they're great and I love them but they're hardly sociable!

Elspeth - I would not put wildlife photography in the hardly sociable bracket.

I went on a bird watching trip to Handa Island in Scotland and it was great fun and a great way to meet other people. There was some hunky looking men there, apart from myself that is.

Thal

[elspeth]

My last photography trip was to Finland, I spent every night for a week in hides in a swamp on the Finland/Russia border photographing brown bears... it was incredible but you couldn't talk in case the bears noticed you!

You may have a point though... hmm, will have to think about that a bit further.

[thalbergmad]

There is a big difference between bears in Russia and birds in Scotland.

I woz gonna go on one of these cruises this year, but as always i left it too late.

Checkit.

Thal

https://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://www.kildacruises.co.uk/images/gallery/hirta.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.kildacruises.co.uk/gallery/&h=448&w=550&sz=26&tbnid=HMJskqOlzAMc9M:&tbnh=105&tbnw=130&hl=en&start=44&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhirta%26start%3D40%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DRNWE,RNWE:2005-25,RNWE:en%26sa%3DN

[ada]

   its a fact that can be proven, thus its a fact that the increasing desire amongst women to remain single or to bring up children in single parent families as rather risky and often doomed too fail. Sadly this is a reality and it is a vicious cycle that is repeated time and time again.  One only needs to read or watch the news

I don't have the stats before me but while some women choose to raise a child without a man  I think you'll find that in most cases women become single mothers because

a) the father has run out or never hung around in the first place

b) the woman is escaping an abusive partner

c) the father is sexually abusing the kids

Women also become single mothers because they can't find a suitable partner and they are running out of time to have children.

Oh, and don't believe everything you read in the news 

[pianistimo]

puffin are cute. 

thal and elsbeth really should at least say hello on one of those cruises.  they might have more in common than they think.  brown bears?  photographing brown bears?  you could definately handle thal, too. 

whew!  those are like lions or african tigers.  they are unpredictable and huge.  you must be very brave elspeth.  or, lost some of your faculties. 

i will never forget a trip to a summer camp with my kids in which we forgot to throw out some mc donalds wrappers.  the back of the camper started going up and down about 8  or 9 pm and i though for sure it was one of the counselors giving us a joke.  then, i hear the bear noises and think - wow, they really know how to sound like bear.  we started laughing - but then the rocking got really violent.  i started thinking - 'if this gets any worse - i'm driving off with the hookups.'  i should have thrown the mcdonalds out the window - but we found it the next morning under the sink.  they can smell!  anyhew.  we prayed.  it was the thing i did before driving off.  they sulked away when they couldn't rip the camper apart.  (huge windows in the back, too.  it was too much to look out). 

[bernhard]

I don't have the stats before me but while some women choose to raise a child without a man  I think you'll find that in most cases women become single mothers because

a) the father has run out or never hung around in the first place

b) the woman is escaping an abusive partner

c) the father is sexually abusing the kids

Women also become single mothers because they can't find a suitable partner and they are running out of time to have children.

Oh, and don't believe everything you read in the news 

Actually, in the UK, women usually very young - became single mothers in order to get a house from the government. That is, they declare themselves single mothers, but the father (boyfriend) many times lives with them (without social services knowing). When they need a bigger house, they have more children.

a) b) c) are gross prejudice against men. There is only a tiny minority which allegedly behaves in such way and yet, this misconception is continually being flaunted as "the explanation", as if all men were such.

BW
B.

[thalbergmad]

Actually, in the UK, women usually very young - became single mothers in order to get a house from the government.

Thanks to President Bliar and the PC looney brigade, this is true.

However, single mothers have recently been moved down the housing ladder to make way for Albanian drug addicts and will be moved even further down in 2007 to cope with the influx of Romanian peg sellers.

Hopefully, this should reduce the amount of gymslip pregnancies in this once great Country.

Thal

[elspeth]

you must be very brave elspeth.  or, lost some of your faculties.   

Oddly enough, you're not the first person to have suggested that! Brown bears aren't too bad, it's polar bears you have to be careful with - they're bigger, more confident, more curious, more aggressive and live in a more hostile environment. And are the only predator that routinely hunts people. And yes, I've been to photograph them, too...

What was that you were saying about being trapped on a boat with Thal? lol!

[pianistimo]

if you are also a scientist, then it might explain why the difficulty.  you probably will find someone who admires your photography, music, and scientific mind when you are least expecting it.  maybe on one of those cruises where thal poses as your boyfriend.  seems that if you have a boyfriend already ?  strange, i know.  anyway, let them think that you're breaking up (even though it hasn't started).  thal would be a good actor for that anyway.  it could be like that movie 'what's it again?'  where they pose and then fall in love with each other anway.

[thalbergmad]

What a strange imagination you have.

Thal

[Bob]

(shuts book)  Yep.  Sorry, Elspeth.  You've been blacklisted.  Says so in my Handbook for Men here.   


How about a personal ad thing?

You could be sitting there hunting bears and your future spouse could be a bit way also sitting quietly.

You're a photographer?  I thought you worked in the theater Elspeth.

[elspeth]

(shuts book)  Yep.  Sorry, Elspeth.  You've been blacklisted.  Says so in my Handbook for Men here.   

I knew that had to be it. You were all just too polite to tell me...

You're a photographer?  I thought you worked in the theater Elspeth.

I'm a woman, I can multitask! There isn't really much money to be made in the fields of photography I'm interested in, so I supplement it with the theatre... it's a hard life...

I've tried personals before and not really got anywhere with them. The problem with starting off with correspondance is people sell themselves better, so you meet someone who sounded wonderful and then discover all the stuff they didn't tell you as they knew any sensible woman'd run screaming...

[quasimodo]

Relationships are overrated. Practice your piano, Elspeth. 

[pianistimo]

pray!  and, go to church?  i think there's a lot of guys who seem 'too nice' but in actuality that's what you want, right?  someone who will treat you well and share responsibilities.  i love my husband because he's not just dumping on me.  he'll come home and do stuff.  sometimes cooking, sometimes taking the kids to the park.  we trade off and it works really well.  whenever we are feeling tired or whatever - we let the other person sleep.  sleep is half the key to a good relationship, imo.

when you get over the 'bad guy' mentality - which maybe you never had in the first place - and appreciate the good guys - that's when you find one!  not in pubs or work out gyms or places where they are showing off - but at church or in a service situation.  perhaps a paramedic.  wouldn't that be rip.  you could have an accident of some sort (not as bad as mine, ok) - and these good looking hunks of men come and try to make you feel better. 

[dnephi]

Is pianistimo:
Pianist In My Opinion.
Or
Pianissimo with a t instead of an s?

[thalbergmad]

pray!  and, go to church? 

Dear God,

Please find me a well fit man, with a huge wallett and an ever bigger dong.

Utter rubbish woman.

Thal

[pianistimo]

pianist in my opinion.

now, thal, what is this prayer.  it doesn't sound like the Lord's prayer.  i think it might be the younger woman's prayer.  the older woman is more sensible.  'please, dear God, let him have the ability to fix things (even temporarily) or even just look like he can fix things.  please help him to minimize the negatives and be positive.  and, to always keep me on a pedestal.' 

i would say that of all the nice things my husband does -he always speaks well of me.  especially to his friends.  when he comes home he looks for me.  and, he makes me feel like i am an important part of his life.  he doesn't hide behind things (usually).  i sometimes chastize him about occasional all-night novel reading - but i am realizing that, for him, reading is as important as eating, exercise, and possibly sex.  his brain has to be fed.  words.  he likes words.  contexts. meanings.  he is never satiated with saying things one way.  there has to be another three or four different ways.  sometimes he says them out loud.  i just think, 'ok, he's in one of these radio announcer modes.'

the things that used to bug me are so characteristic of him that i would miss them if he didn't do them anymore. 

ok.  about the prayer...just make it simple.  'please God.  let it be a man.  let him have all the basics.  let me find him in an obscure place so that i know you sent him to me.  possibly on a bear photography mission.  let him jump out of the bushes.  then, i will know he's the one.'

[zheer]

a) b) c) are gross prejudice against men. There is only a tiny minority which allegedly behaves in such way and yet, this misconception is continually being flaunted as "the explanation", as if all men were such.

 

  Yes thats true, this is partly truy in recent years a large number of angry men have protested and marched the streets against the new laws legislated to stop fathers visiting or having very little contact with their childre once separated through divorce. Judges seem or are convinced that mothers are far more able to look after children than fathers. not suprisingly organised groups of angry fathers have formed and terrorized members of government responsible for passing such unjust laws.
      Aside from the fact that the gap between the rich and the poor has widened in a capitaliset society where the rich gets visibly fater and richer through the labour of imagrent workers whom are spat at for building the nation which we live in, the fact that class division can be felt early in life through schools and work, the fact that the city divided by your nationality, religion or skin color, the fact that young non white men are routinly surched stoped interogated by the police and often shot at if one looks suspicious. The fact that wars continue despight its eligality. The fact that more women are alcaholic and drug dependant than men, the fact that more and more people are unemployed and in grave dept. Is it a conspiracy, NO, just the begining of moral break down, the rise in divorce rate, the slow road to hell, one only needs to walk the streets of london on fogy winter nights past the clubs and bars to smell  the stench of vomit on the pavement, to witness the naked flesh of women as it lies on street, park benches intoxicated by the vast amount of alcahol one consumed in casinoes and clubs, money earned through prostetution. As the night gradually turnd into day and the fights in pubs are over all that remains are the police collecting victime, cleaning urin on wall and clearing blood and broken bottles from the street, as this goes on the number of gang rape and sexually assaults are comitted round the luck, all the remains is silence as morning light is seen and the sound of rats searching and eating the food that was left over  the night before. Its not hard to imagin this way of life repeats evey night, year after year .      

[prometheus]

Moral breakdown? Was there ever any morality? I hear this stuff a lot. That we lose our freedoms and such; origionally humans never had freedom.

It's like that rebuilding NATO mission in Afghanistan. They are rebuilding that what wasn't even there; before or after Alexander. There was nothing and there is nothing to rebuild.

[pianistimo]

but, prometheus, textbooks don't tell you everything.  how can we know.  how can we absolutely know for a fact that there weren't civilizations with a tremendous amount of freedom.  we know that the romans had slaves - but the upper class had a lot more leisure time than they needed if they were making baths in pompeii.  the likes of which were destroyed, buried and recently uncovered.

the thing is, what do we do with freedom?  do we abuse it?  if so, why?  why would we devalue freedom.  it is essential to truly living as God does.  God is free.  he made the heavens to look at.  birds to fly.  do you think we all want to live in a prison type mentality?  i certainly do not. 

'give me liberty or give me death.'

[thalbergmad]

I see the therapy sessions are working.

Thal

[prometheus]

but, prometheus, textbooks don't tell you everything.  how can we know.  how can we absolutely know for a fact that there weren't civilizations with a tremendous amount of freedom.  we know that the romans had slaves - but the upper class had a lot more leisure time than they needed if they were making baths in pompeii.  the likes of which were destroyed, buried and recently uncovered.

the thing is, what do we do with freedom?  do we abuse it?  if so, why?  why would we devalue freedom.  it is essential to truly living as God does.  God is free.  he made the heavens to look at.  birds to fly.  do you think we all want to live in a prison type mentality?  i certainly do not. 

'give me liberty or give me death.'

Pardon me? You seem to confuse wealth, the level of technology and art with morality and freedom. Isn't that kind of strange for a christian? That you don't even understand this basic thing about morality? If the bible doesn't teach you this then what does it teach?

The roman civilisation was one of the most violent in history. Violence and killing was a fundamental part of society. We all know the gladiator games which were enjoyed by everyone. Today we are still very violent but we don't seem to enjoy these things.
The roman empire got rich and powerful through war. They enslaved many many people.  Don't underestimate the level of civilisation in present day southern France, those gallic tribes weren't barbarians. Same goes for places like Carthage and many other cities around the mediterranean. The romans destroyed these. It is hard to know if there was actual genocide but cases are made that Julius Ceaser committed genocide in Gaul and that the same happened to Carthage. The city was totally destroyed, hence 'the Carthaginian solution'. Also, the Carthaginians sacrificed their children to their gods. Religion is so nice...

The whole empire was ruled by a few families of Rome. That's all. Now Rome also had a 'middle class' made up of Roman citizens but they being a citizen didn't mean that much. In a sense it meant that you weren't an absolute victim of power.
After Julius Ceasar Rome was even ruled by an emperor. Look at how some of these guys got into power. Look at Caligula. The people didn't have any power to stop him. He was assassinated by his own guards, the only way to get rid of him.

Look at the way the roman empire treated children, animals, prisoners/criminals and the sick/disabled. That is how one rates civilisation. Maybe as a christian, who are totally obsessed by sex, you may want to take a look at that behavior as well, to judge their ethics. That isn't pretty either. Homosexuality was normal. There were few sexual restrictions. Sex was just a way to gain an advantage in social settings.

There wasn't any democracy, civil rights or freedom in the roman empire. It was one big jungle. They may have had a lot of money, knowledge and refined art; that doesn't mean much.

Same goes for ancient Greece. Socrates was sentenced to death for his 'enlightenment', remember? Greece may have been famous for democracy. But only 'those that mattered' took part in democracy.

Sure, after the fall of the roman empire the christianity made the quality of life for people even lower by destroying the knowledge of the greeks and romans, plundging Europe into the dark ages. But this has nothing to do with civil rights, equality, control and seperation of power, justice, ethics, freedom and the like. These were all fought for in the last 150 years. First we had to get rid of the dominant chistian dogma. Then we could battle for civil rights. In the US that wasn't such a long time ago. In other countries it hasn't even happened yet.