Broken chords in Chopin

[southpaw]

Is it true that broken chords in Chopin are always to be played from the lowest note in the left hand to the highest note in the right hand, never with both hands starting together?  So says Arthur Friedheim in the notes to the Etudes (especially 10/8 and 10/11) in the Schirmer edition.  He writes, "The classic arpeggio, in which the two hands start together, is nowhere to be employed in Chopin."  I have never heard this anywhere else.

[lung7793]

not sure...i say if it sounds better doing it one way or the other, do it! 

[pianowolfi]

In the second part of the Nocturne c-minor op. 48 there are two different sorts of arpeggio signs, either through the whole grand staff or separate for both staffs. The teacher who i studied the piece with (Alicja Masan) is a  Polish Chopin specialist and she told me that the ones with only one long waved line through the grand staff should be played from the bass to the top and the others starting simultaneously with both hands. hope this helps.

[quantum]

In the second part of the Nocturne c-minor op. 48 there are two different sorts of arpeggio signs, either through the whole grand staff or separate for both staffs. The teacher who i studied the piece with (Alicja Masan) is a  Polish Chopin specialist and she told me that the ones with only one long waved line through the grand staff should be played from the bass to the top and the others starting simultaneously with both hands. hope this helps.

This is quite correct, and is an accepted way of reading the rolled chord signs. 

[walking_encyclopedia]

there is no absolute rule dude. i mean, chopin didn't write a little disclaimer before composing his etudes talking about which way to roll the chords. listen to recs to get ideas, but use your own unique interpretation. rules are meant to be broken.

[pianistimo]

maria ?szymanowska is said to be a composer whom chopin was intimately aware of (all her music) and whom he followed composition-wise and probably technique-wise.  i found this information in the polish music journal after googling 'playing rolled chords with both hands in chopin' or something like that.

anyhew, from my limited understanding, i am agreed with the idea of the wavy line covering both staves as an indication of a long rolled arpeggio starting with the bass and moving to the treble.

however, when ravel came along (which was the next step after chopin) - piano technique began to show more possibilities.  esp if you google 'gaspard de la nuit'  - you will see many things that ravel began to do such as rolling chords in both hands in the opposite direction and things like that. 

imo, that is probably where the idea of two-handed arpeggios probably took off.  i really wonder if chopin had any.  can you show me where it would be appropriate to use two hands at once.  i was under the impression that he hadn't progressed in contemporary useage of arpeggio rolling as with brahms 'hungarian rhapsodies' and pieces like that which are basically two voices playing at the same time.  seems that so much of chopin is just one voice (tenor) with accompaniment.

can someone point me to a place where two hands are used?  (i might be wrong, but curious).   

[dnephi]

If it's written in one big roll, do it from bottom to top.  If two separate squiggles, use hands separate rolling.  I.E., hands together rolling of March Wind end.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

"The classic arpeggio, in which the two hands start together, is nowhere to be employed in Chopin."

could be his own interpretation. it does sound elegant to do this with the F major op. 10 etude's last 4 chords.

but if you've tried playing these last chords in time (no ritard), and which both hands start together (even so with the last chord), as specified by Chopin, it sounds even nicer, more playful, IMO. although most people i've heard play it as Arthur Friedheim says so.

i mean, chopin would have written it out, right... his nocturne in cm op. 48 is proof that, indeed, he would just specify it anyway.

i've never trusted Schirmer Edition as well.

[dnephi]

could be his own interpretation. it does sound elegant to do this with the F major op. 10 etude's last 4 chords.

but if you've tried playing these last chords in time (no ritard), and which both hands start together (even so with the last chord), as specified by Chopin, it sounds even nicer, more playful, IMO. although most people i've heard play it as Arthur Friedheim says so.

i mean, chopin would have written it out, right... his nocturne in cm op. 48 is proof that, indeed, he would just specify it anyway.

i've never trusted Schirmer Edition as well.

True. Except for concerti.  Sometimes there's no one else who publishes.

[pianistimo]

but, did chopin ever specify in writing.  i look at the op. 10 #8 and play it and find that it even if i tried to play it 'together' - my right hand would come in slightly after the left (for the best note distinction) and on the last chord - i definately would play left to right for the ending.  maybe it IS a personal thing - but am wondering about chopin's definite writings on this.

what makes me feel it is the other way is that in the mikuli version - there are notes added to the notes here that fill in the chords even more.  so either both hands are full of notes or we have a 'convenient' hand spaced chord for each hand that was put in by the publisher. 

[crazy for ivan moravec]

i think that he did specify in writing. the problem is, he always changed his mind, thus the different versions (as publishers always had a problem with this).

and that even convinces me all the more that he did specify things in writing, because he always revised it whenever he felt like he needed to write something different on the same piece. besides, it's easier and faster to write an arpeggio sign that goes all the way from the bottom to the top than what is written (i only have the Paderewski edition, considered a reliable one). if he didn't specify, then he would have just scribbled one arpeggio sign from top to bottom.


but i think the rolling of chords is not much of an issue, whether it should be super strictly followed or not so super strictly followed, regardless of whether chopin specified it or not. the rolling of the chords doesn't seem to be functional, it's an effect or color. i rather tend to think that it should be up to the performer and his good taste to make it sound good in relation to the character of the whole piece.

[bella musica]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that if you have a wavy line that goes all the way from the bottom stave to the top stave, it means that you roll the chords one after another, kind of like it's all one big chord.  But if the RH and LH chords each have their own wavy line, you roll them both at the same time.

[pianistimo]

agreed about taste.  if you roll them exactly at the same time - pairing notes - you don't get much note distinction.  but if you stagger them  - even when playing at the same time - there's more 'brilliance.'  yet. the final chord - still seems to me - to need some kind of grandiosity.  it just seems too quick that way.  maybe i've not heard enough performers play it.

[zheer]

Is it true that broken chords in Chopin are always to be played from the lowest note in the left hand to the highest note in the right hand, never with both hands starting together? 

  Yes, unless specifically instructed not to, though stylisticly starting from the lowest note and ending on the highest note is musically speaking the correct way.