4-5 trills are the hardest action in the universe...

[sinspawnammes]

Rivaling childbirth and Britney Spears music.  I was doing some Dohnyani etudes, mostly the first few (which involve holding down the first three fingers while trilling slowly with 4 and 5, 3 and 5, and 4 and 3), and I have so much trouble with 4/5.  I just can't keep the fingers even, can't keep the 5 bent, and it's a nightmare.  Is there some magic pill that helps remedy my tremendous lapse in finger independence, or am I doing something wrong?  I've stayed away from technik etudes for the most part, outside of a little Czerny, Hanon, and Dohnyani, should I use those to practice those difficult motions?

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I practice some Wieck excercises that focus exactly on that, the suspension of the first 3 fingers and trilling with 4 and 5 fingers. My teacher observes practically every movement and position of my fingers, hand, arm, and body in general. I pay attention to my finger position(make sure they don't collapse), stay loose and aim for accuracy and evenness of sound, not the tempo.

[chromatickler]

this topic

[brewtality]

I see the comme version has been replaced.

[nicco]

Heres a tip for you. Instead of trying to press down the 4th and 5th finger, try to focus on lifting them. Works wonders

[violinist]

4-5 trills are crazy.  I know as a violinist there's no way to avoid them at times.  I guess it's also true for pianists that there are times when it can't be avoided in actual music.

Can anyone name some examples of other pieces for the piano where 4-5 trills are needed?

Thanks!

[jre58591]

there is one part in rzewski's people united varations where you need to do a 4-5 trill in both hands.

[Waldszenen]

4-5 trills are crazy.  I know as a violinist there's no way to avoid them at times.  I guess it's also true for pianists that there are times when it can't be avoided in actual music.

Can anyone name some examples of other pieces for the piano where 4-5 trills are needed?

Thanks!

Technically speaking, the opening tremolos in the Don Juan Fantasy are supposed to be played as 4-5 trills in the left hand, but if you watch Lang Lang's video, he does a double-handed trill (while forgetting to hold down the chords above them, using pedal instead). Bloody show off.


There are some short 4-5 trills in the 3rd movement of Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 5 (as octaves; the RH plays 4-5 and the LH plays 1-2).

[ce nedra]

I'm sure there's some or other crazy 4/5 trill in Rachmaninoff's Paganini Rhapsody. I saw Olga Kern play this live and somewhere near the end (I cant precisely remember where, this concert was a long while ago) I just remember seeing her do this 4/5 trill... it was madness how fast she did it.. faster than I can trill with 2/3.

*Back to the Dohnanyi excercises for me*

[pianowolfi]

I was doing some Dohnyani etudes, mostly the first few (which involve holding down the first three fingers while trilling slowly with 4 and 5, 3 and 5, and 4 and 3), and I have so much trouble with 4/5.  I just can't keep the fingers even, can't keep the 5 bent, and it's a nightmare. 

Ok there are a few pieces where you need 4-5 trills but I have never seen 4-5 trills while holding the first three fingers. So these exercises seem useless to me. Pure torture.

[demented cow]

there was a post a few months ago dealing with 4-5 trills. You could use the search function to find it.

[thalbergmad]

4/5 trills turn up in the works of Thalberg.

Often, at the same time you have to pick out the melody with your thumb.

Not easy, but comes with practise.

Thal

[soderlund]

In La campanella there is a 4-5 trill no? I've never played the piece but I've read that it is one of the many difficulties in that piece...

[sharon_f]

The Sarabande from Bach's 6th French Suite is a wonderful study in trills, with trills in both hands in lots of different combinations. And because it is Bach the trills should be perfectly articulated. No hiding behind a lot of pedal!

[violinist]

Darn!
There are so many pieces it seems for the piano with 4-5 trills.. and I thought I was learning piano so I could get away from 4-5 trills on the violin (well, the fingering would be 3-4 trills because usually we only use 4 fingers on the violin and the first finger is the index finger. I could tell you that the fingerings written on the piano drives me crazy because a 1 on the violin is really a 2 for the piano). 

[brewtality]

Common enough in Chopin Polonaises, the hardest are between G and Aflat ( or any others between white and black key in general).

[loops]

Heres a tip for you. Instead of trying to press down the 4th and 5th finger, try to focus on lifting them. Works wonders

Brilliant! this works!  thanks

[demented cow]

Might as well give you more details.
Some posts in the following thread on 4-5 trills were very useful, esp. Derek's posts:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,16100.0.html
And there are plenty of other references to the subject under:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=search2

If you're really interested in more pieces with 4-5 trills (I can't see why if you hate them so much?), check out Beethoven op. 111, 2nd movt. A lot of trills could be played either 3-4, 4-5 or 3-5 (e.g. Chopin Barcarolle, Beethoven moonlight 3rd movt, appasionata 1st movt.)

[e60m5]

The difficulty with 4/5 trilling lies in generating power and pace, and the answer in my experience lies in a reverse tremolo action.

Any more specific than this would require a piano and a demonstration I'm afraid.  But, there are further mechanical philosophies other than mine which would no doubt give different answers to problem.  (But I disagree with them.   )