Anyone use sight-reading software?

[leucippus]

I found the following two sight-reading software packages that appear to be quite different:

The first one is called "Noteable".  It's a flash-card game of single notes.  It's quite versatile in that you can design the parameters of the random flash cards.  In other words, you can chose to include any combination of four cleffs, Treble, Bass, Alto, and Tenor.  You can also chose whether or not to include accidentals, and you can choose either sharps or flats only, or both. 

The program is kind of nice in that it will accept a MIDI keyboard input so you can actually get a feel for the geography of the keyboard as you do the exercises.  It seems like it might actually help with gaining sight-reading skills more quickly than might otherwise be achieved.

The downside to it seems to be that you can only do one note at a time.

The upside is that it analysis your progress in several ways so that you can see where your strengths and weakness are.  You can also see how much better you are doing over time.

This is the website for Noteable: Noteable Flash Cards

The second one I found seems to be totally different.  It is called "Etude Sight Reader".   It's not based on the flashcard idea, but instead it uses complete music score for the piano.  You can use it to check if you are playing correct notes, as well as correct timing and other features.  It appears to be much more elaborate than the flashcard system, yet the flashcard system almost seems like it would be a better way to learn quickly.

This is the website for Etude: Etude Sight Reader

I'm actually thinking about trying both of them but I thought I'd post here to see if anyone has any experience with either of these or any other sight-reading software.

Please let me know what you think.   I wasn't sure whether to post this in "Teaching" or "Student" so I posted in "Student" because I'm asking a question, but the question is really what people think of these software sight-reading aids.  Are they useful and does anyone have any experience with them either as a teacher, or as a self-learner?

Thank you, for taking the time to read this lengthy post.

P.S. Forgive me if this has been done before.  I did a search on it and couldn't find anything about sight-reading software aids for MIDI keyboards.

[barnowl]

Thanks for the tips, Leucippus.

Years back, there were lots of sight reading software online, but I never bought any. I'll take a look at Etude Sight Reader.

But before I go, about your user name...


I looked up the whole thing at dictionary.com, but it isn't a word - not in English, anyway.
But I learned that the cippus part stands for a pilllar or gravestone, and I'll take a stab that Leu is for white - as in Leukocyte. So what are you, a white pillar, stele, gravestone? What?   

[barnowl]

If y'all go to...

https://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=Etude+Sight+Reader&hl=en&lr=&lmode=online

...you'll find a bunch of vendors with a wide-ish range of prices, from $13.75 to $29.99. There are 4 CDs in the package entitled Instant Play Piano. Etude Sight Reader's in there.

Check it out, if you're curious - hell, even if you're just a little bit odd. 

[leucippus]

Leucippus was a Greek philosopher from Miletus in Asia Minor.   He along with Zeno from Elea are my two most favorite philosophers from ancient Greek.  Most everyone is familiar with Zeno and his paradoxes of motion which mathematicians today believe that calculus has solved but it has not (that's a whole other story).  And Leucippus was the very first philosopher to propose the atomic hypothesis which was quite radical in his day because most Greek philosophers at that time believed that all is one.   In any case, history often credits Democritus as being the first to propose the atomic theory, but actually that's because Democritus was a student of Leucippus and was much better at communicating these ideas to other people.  

In any case, I use the screen name Leucippus on several forums and it usually works because apparently no one else is using it.  My real name is James but who wants that as a screen name on a forum?  

 oops!  Maybe I shouldn't say that there probably is a James on here somewhere.

[leucippus]

If y'all go to...

https://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=Etude+Sight+Reader&hl=en&lr=&lmode=online

...you'll find a bunch of vendors with a wide-ish range of prices, from $13.75 to $29.99. There are 4 CDs in the package entitled Instant Play Piano. Etude Sight Reader's in there.

Check it out, if you're curious - hell, even if you're just a little bit odd. 

Hmmmm?  That's strange, they only want about 15 bucks for a 4 CD set, one of which contains Etude Sight Reader.  Yet on the Etude Sight Reader web site whey want $35 just to download the sight reader software.

Makes me wonder whether the package has a limited version or something?

Anyway that whole package for $15 is looking kind of odd, er, I mean interesting.

[leucippus]

Well, I ordered that Instant Play Piano package at Amazon so that's what I'll use to help with my sight reading.  I report back later to this thread sometime about whether or not I found it helpful.

[darla]

Hi,
I researched this subject in some detail. While everyone learns differently, these were my conclusions:

The sight-reading programs I found were too basic and I abandoned all of them.  The most efficient method for me in learning the notes was Richmann's book.  I ended up slogging through the whole book (I have a love-hate relationship with it), but the beginning exercises are very efficient for sight-reading notes.

The key feature I was looking for in a software package was the ability to force the user to look ahead--I never found it! (except in an old Macintosh program that I've never seen). If anyone knows of one that exists on a PC, please let me know.

[leucippus]

The most efficient method for me in learning the notes was Richmann's book. 

Thank you for your input Darla, I'm guessing that you're probably correct.  I'll probably end up moving on to Richmann's book too.  The problem is that I have a MIDI keyboard and a computer so I'm thinking I may as well take advantage of it.  I am a bit of a computer nerd anyway.

In fact, I've actually been thinking about writing my own program using the MIDI capability.  I think that writing up something like the Noteable Flash Card program would be extremely easy to do.  Except I would make it do multiple notes and maybe even multiple staffs.  I could even build a "look ahead" feature into it.   In fact, I'm just now getting an idea for having the music scroll along in a window so that you have to play it while it's in the window forcing you to look ahead.

This may end up being an excursion into computer programming as well.  Not to worry, I've done plenty of that before.

Maybe I'll learn to sight read and create a software product of my own along the way.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt me to get Richmann's book too.  Too bad you didn't mention that sooner while I was ordering from Amazon.

I do plan on getting a Tonal Harmony book later this fall so maybe I'll get Richman's book then too.

[allthumbs]

I have a program called  "KeyNote Music Drills' that one can do note-to-keyboard and keyboard-to-note drills. It's a shareware program that has a 15 day trial period. It still works after that, but for the purchase price (around $20 USD), other features become available.

Have a look.

https://www.aloha.net/~khigaki/


Cheers,

allthumbs

PS

Here are a couple of screen shots...

[leucippus]

I have a program called  "KeyNote Music Drills' that one can do note-to-keyboard and keyboard-to-note drills.

Thank you for your response to the topic .

May I ask has this software helped you to learn sight-reading?

Also, have you actually used it with a MIDI keyboard to learn where the notes are on the keyboard? 

My main interest is to be able to directly respond to the notes by playing them on a keyboard.  That's where the real help will come in I think.  Just learning to quickly call out the names of notes isn't going help much with sight-reading I don't think.  So it's the MIDI keyboard interaction that I'm mainly interested in.

[barnowl]

Thank you Leucippus, for all the inf9rmation - on the software and your name.

I hope you will get back to us when you've tested the Instant Piano software.

Tonite, I'll be off to dell.com to buy a laptop. Nothing elaborate, just a unit to keep beside my digital piano, for downloading audio piano files and sheet music, plus uploading midifiles to my piano.

Any suggestions on models, etc.?

[leucippus]

I hope you will get back to us when you've tested the Instant Piano software.

Owl dew that.  I've ordered the software so it should be here shortly.  I can comment on who well it works technically fairly quickly.  But it may take a while to assess just how much it will help me to learn sight-reading.  Also, I'm trying some other things to learn sight-reading as well, so that may also affect how well I learn it.

I can already sight-read very simple melodies at very slow speed so I'm not exactly starting from scratch.  In fact, I sight-read pretty well with the violin.  It's the idea of reading two hands simultaneously (and two different staffs simultaneously) that is throwing me for a loop with the piano.  It just seems like too much to take on.  Right now it actually seems impossible to me, but other people can obviously do this.

In fact, what has sparked me into wanting to learn was a visit from my cousin.  He had played the piano many years ago but did know how to sight read.   He sat down at my piano and played Fur Elise right off the score.  I mean, he didn't play it real smooth or even up to speed, but the fact that he could play it at all from just reading the score amazed me.  Then just to be sure he was actually sight-reading and not just remembering it I had him play several etudes that I randomly choose and he played them right off the score too.  He said that he never saw them before.   So I was impressed.

It's not that I want to get to a "performance level" whilst sight-reading.  If I can get as good as my cousin I'd be thrilled.  The reason being that I could learn pieces so much faster if I could just sight-read them like that to get started with.  He was even sight-reading the Bach Inventions!  And doing a very good job I might add.

Sadly he hasn't played the piano in years and doesn't seem to be interested in returning to it.  It just seems like such skill going to waste.  He has the ability to sight-read and learn new pieces quickly but he's just not interested in playing anymore.

He said he might get back into it when he retires.  I said, sure if you don't die first!

Anyway, watching him sight-read like that has sparked me to go on an all-out blitzkrieg to learn how to sight-read.  Although to be perfectly honest my real problem may have more to do with a need to learn hand independence.  That's a whole other topic.

Any suggestions on (computer laptop) models, etc.?

I'm afraid that I haven't kept up with computers.  I used to teach computer technology, repair and programming.  But I've been out of it for about 5 years now and I haven't kept up with it.  I still dabble in a little bit of Visual Basic programming and sometimes I'll write some assembly code for something, but other than that I have no idea what's going on in the computer world.  I know the Dell's are quite popular when their batteries aren't exploding.  That's about all I know anymore.

[maestoso]

leuccipus, there is a free website called 8 notes.com it has a note trainer and it teaches treble, bass and alto clef. it has helped me tremendously with sight reading. plus it has many different ear training programs. just thought if your other stuff doesn't work out.

[barnowl]

At the risk of stating the obvious

I don't know if the various sight-reading programs, techniques, etc., will contradict this, but...

When you're a piano beginner, you first pick out a short section of a piece and learn to play it with each each hand separately. If necessary, work out the fingering that's best for you and stick to it. Now drill each hand until ythey've memorized their roles.

Make music while you're doing this. Play accoding to the composer's notation. Loud here, soft there. fast here, rit there, and so on. Learn it so you can play hands apart at warp speed (perhaps), - but making music all the while.

Now, try to put the hands together. SLOWLY. Don't be too surprised if it feels like you didn't learn nuttin', that you've wasted a load of time, hands apart. Just play the section slowly though a number of times. Same fingering, same attention to notation.

It'll come together. soon enough, and when you can play smoothly, up the tempo to a bit faster than funereal, and when you can play the section well enough to suit you, go to the next section. Overlap the new segment with a measure or two from the old, and attack the new part the same way as the old. Then when you're ready, take a deep breath and play the two sections non stop. The overlapping you did, will serve you well as you smoothly segue from Section 1 to Section 2.

Now, having typed out all this stuff, it occurs to me that this is probably the same way a neo-violinist attacks a piece - the left hand fretting, the right caressing the bow on the strings. Oh well.

I get a thrill out of itty-bitty accomplishments like this, and I hope you do too. I'm a beginner, as well, and every time I take a couple of new steps, I celebrate inside.
Making music is nothing less than glorious. And these micro achievements keep me coming back for more.

Now, off I go to my practice session.

[allthumbs]

Thank you for your response to the topic .

May I ask has this software helped you to learn sight-reading?

Also, have you actually used it with a MIDI keyboard to learn where the notes are on the keyboard? 

My main interest is to be able to directly respond to the notes by playing them on a keyboard.  That's where the real help will come in I think.  Just learning to quickly call out the names of notes isn't going help much with sight-reading I don't think.  So it's the MIDI keyboard interaction that I'm mainly interested in.

I did not use this software to learn to sight read as I had that skill already.

I am not sure one could use a midi keyboard directly with this program or not, but I think there would be a learning benefit by being able to recognize a note on the staff and point to it using your mouse in the timelimit that was set before it shows you the correct response.

It also has the same drills for guitar and bass guitar as well.


Cheers

allthumbs

[faulty_damper]

Hi,
I researched this subject in some detail. While everyone learns differently, these were my conclusions:

The key feature I was looking for in a software package was the ability to force the user to look ahead--I never found it! (except in an old Macintosh program that I've never seen). If anyone knows of one that exists on a PC, please let me know.

Here is a bit of information that I read recently about a scientific comparative study of good and poor sightreaders done decades ago about sightreading:

Looking ahead doesn't do a learning sightreader any good and actually inhibits the development of sightreading. (Poor sightreaders looked ahead far more often than good ones.)

This study also showed the fallacy of reading from the bass up, (good SRs didn't do this as often, and usually read from the highest note first)...

Actually, there was so much in this study that showed the fallacy of virtually every single thing good readers recommended to poor ones because the good ones didn't go what they recommended.  Name anything about what strategies to becomea  better sightreader and it will almost always be wrong.

Ironic... 

[barnowl]

Interesting, Faulty, could you give us the link where you found this information. Please understand I don't doubt you. I would just like to read the whole story.

[faulty_damper]

This was a doctorate thesis that I found (accidentally) in my schools library.

A study of the eye-movements and eye-hand temporal relationships of successful and unsuccessful piano sight-readers while piano sight-reading by Leonora Jeanne Young.

Publ/date
Bloomington, Ind. ; s.n., 1972.

I don't know if local libraries carry doctorate theses it but you may be able to get an inter-library loan from universities that do have it.

Because this was a scientific study, there was a lot of information from the tests.  If you do get a hold of it, check the conclusions of the different sections to read the authors findings of the experiments (most of it was very boring but "eye-raising" at the same time).  But the conclusion of the entire study would be the most pertinent as this is where she specifically states that looking ahead, reading from the bass up, not looking at the keyboard, and so much more, is not what good sightreaders do.  Also, she ends stating that more research needs to be done because there ended up being more questions than this study originally sought to answer.

In summary, if you read the conclusion, this study single-handedly debunked almost every (if not every) suggestion on how to become a better sightreader.

[barnowl]

I'll take your word for it. Thank you.

[leucippus]

This was a doctorate thesis that I found (accidentally) in my schools library.

A study of the eye-movements and eye-hand temporal relationships of successful and unsuccessful piano sight-readers while piano sight-reading by Leonora Jeanne Young.

This is something that I would like to read.  I'm going to try to get a copy from interlibrary loan.  In some cases like a scientific report they will actually send you a photocopy if the research is not copywrited (i.e. non-commercial in nature).

Anyway, if anyone else would like to find it you can see which libraries have it at the following link:

Where to find the thesis

In many ways Young's conclusion about it not being important to look ahead doesn't really surprise me at all. 

On the computer I see so many automated "flash-card" programs where you look at a note and instantly click on the letter name of the note.   But what does reading letters have to do with good sight-reading?  In my mind they have absolutely nothing to do with it.  This is why I wan to use a MIDI keyboard and just press the correct keys.  I don't even want to think about letters at all.  They are totally unnecessary for the purpose of sight-reading.

In my mind, good sight-reading skills are to be able to look at the score and just jump on the correct keys "instantly".  If you have to think of what letters they represent, and then think about where those letter notes are on the keyboard, then you are adding an intermediate step that isn't necessary at all.   However, if you are sight-reading using that method then I can see where you would want to look ahead to see what's coming because you're going to need some time to translated it into letters and then into where those letters on are the piano keyboard.

It seems to me that a much more efficient way to sight-read is to forget all about the letter names of the notes altogether.  Just learn to view the staff more like tablature.  The notes on strings or lines are simply seen as a map of where your fingers need to be on the keyboard.  No letter names involved at all.  Nothing to translate.  Just jump on the notes as you read them.  Therefore there's nothing to look ahead for.

That's not to say that you would necessarily focus on one beat at a time.  You would still be recognizing patterns in measures, and their may be some value in "glancing" ahead to see if things are going to continue along the same lines or change drastically.   But you wouldn’t really be "reading" head in the sense that you aren't looking at precisely what's coming in a detailed way.  Of course, if you glance ahead and see the precise exact patter that you are currently playing then you would know that you are just going to repeat it and that may be of some help.

Now, I admit that my comments here are from someone who can't even sight-read at all, except for the simplest melodies.  But one reason that I am so slow is that I am still working with recognizing letter names of notes and then translating those letter names into key positions.   I want to break away from that pattern of sight-reading ASAP!  I want to do away with thinking in terms of letter-names while sight-reading.  That's not to say that it won't still be important to be able to read letter names when analyzing music, etc.  But I don't want to be thinking in terms of letter names when I am actually sight-reading for the purpose of playing a piece.

This is my whole motivation for connecting up a MIDI keyboard to the computer.  When I see the notes I just press the appropriate keys and the computer tells me whether or not I did it correctly.  I personally won't need to think about letter names of notes at all.  It will just be a reflex action to play the music as it is written without having to include an intermediate chore of translating letter names into keyboard positions.

Well this post turned out to be it's own thesis.

But this is my whole motivation for using a MIDI keyboard and computer software.  To get away from reading letter names.

I could just do this on the piano with written score, but I'm a computer nerd and I like to have the computer analyze my progress and show me my strengths and weakness, etc.  I just love computers.  We invented them, why not take advantage of them?

[faulty_damper]

 But what does reading letters have to do with good sight-reading?  In my mind they have absolutely nothing to do with it... .  I don't even want to think about letters at all.  They are totally unnecessary for the purpose of sight-reading.

L.J. Young also mentions this to a small extent.  But it was beyong the scope of this study so she didn't persue this.

[leucippus]

L.J. Young also mentions this to a small extent.  But it was beyong the scope of this study so she didn't persue this.

I'm sure that there are many different ways to sight-read.  Everyone probably has their own way of thinking about these things.  And since I'm only just beginning to learn I certainly can't say what will or won't work well for me or anyone else.

But it seems to me that just reacting to the score by using it as a form of abstract tablature would be the best possible method.  I'm certainly going try this method to see how well it might work for me.

However, if a person is sight-reading by reacting to the score directly as a form of abstract tablature then what would be the purpose of "reading" ahead?   I mean, I can understand the idea of glancing ahead just to get some vague idea of whether something simple is coming next or it's going to get complex.   But glancing ahead like that is not the same as "reading" ahead.

It would seem to me that if a person is sight-reading by instantaneously reacting to the score like as if it is abstract tablature then attempting to "read ahead" would be absurd because there's no delay between what you read and what you react to using this method.

However, if you are looking at notes, then translating them into letters in your mind and then translating those letters into keys on the piano keyboard, then reading ahead makes sense because you need some time to do all that translating.

For me, I want to eliminate all that translating.  Just do away with thinking about letter names altogether and just react to the score as I view it instantaneously.   I've read several papers where people suggest that this as the most efficient method of sight-reading so I'm going to give it a go.  I'll let everyone know how I make out but don't hold your breath waiting because I'm physically and mentally ill so it takes me much longer to make any progress than most normally healthy people.

I'm not denouncing the idea of learning notes by their letter names by the way.  I think that is also quite useful too for other things, but maybe not for sight-reading. 

[faulty_damper]

But the skill of sight-reading is not just to play what is printed on the page but to make music.  You should be able to make music while reading and not sound like you are reading.  The difference is similar to someone reading a book and is telling a story as opposed to someone reading the same book and they sound like they are just reading from a book.

Just reacting doesn't seem to make music or tell a story.  The complexity of sight-reading is too great for anything firm to be said.  The outcome is more important than the process as the judge to whether one is competent or not at this skill.

[leucippus]

But the skill of sight-reading is not just to play what is printed on the page but to make music.  You should be able to make music while reading and not sound like you are reading.  The difference is similar to someone reading a book and is telling a story as opposed to someone reading the same book and they sound like they are just reading from a book.

You have a very good point here.

I think people look to sight-reading to accomplish different types of goals.  My goal is not to learn to sight-read at a performance level.  I'm more interested in learning to sight-read for the purpose of getting hands-together quicker on complicated pieces.  I intend to sight-read far below playing speed. 

My purpose for learning to sight-read is to use it as a tool to get hands-together quicker.  I still have every intention of completely memorizing the pieces I learn and polishing them with much practice.

I believe that the non-translation method (or tablature method) of sight-reading will actually serve me better for that purpose.

I also have a very hard time believing that anyone can actually play very complicated pieces hands-together at performance level the very FIRST time they sight-read a piece of music.  Anyone who can do that has surely been working at that skill for many years.  They also may have started at a very young age where sight-reading isn't much different for them than reading any other language.  It is not my goal to be able to do that.

I probably should have started a thread on the different between translation-sight-reading (recognizing the notes by letter names and translating that into keys on the keyboard) versus sight-reading score as abstract tablature (just looking at the score and pressing the proper keys without thinking in terms of the names of the notes).   In other words, in the tablature method you when you see a note on a line or space you press a key that you associate with that line or space (or the next semitone up or down if in key with sharps or flats).  But You don't think about the names of the notes at all.

Actually, the two different software packages that I described in the opening post teach these two different methods.  The Notable Flash Card method teaches a person to associate letter names with notes (although it can be used with a keyboard too), the Etude sight-reader software doesn't mention the names of the notes at all.  It just displays the score and tells you whether or not you pressed the right key on the keyboard.  No letter names are involved.

I just received the MIDI cable that I had ordered for my keyboard, I'm now waiting for the "Instant Play Piano" software to arrive so I can begin to dig into the Etude Sight Reader to see how it may or may not help me.

Stay tuned for further developments. 

This is an experiment.  I have no idea how well it will work.

[berrt]

There are, of course, hundrets of sight-reading therads. This is one:


https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1081624578

[leucippus]

There are, of course, hundrets of sight-reading therads. This is one:

Yes I know there are.  But I did several searches using "sight-reading software", "sight-reading MIDI", etc.   I couldn't find anything that was related directly to using a MIDI keyboard interfaced to computer software a as a learning aid.

I clicked on the link you provided and got the msg, "Board does not exist".

I would be more than happy to read any threads that discuss the issue of using a MIDI compatible keyboard with computer software as a learning tool.

[overcast_32]

Interesting.. last night when I started (yes, just starting) to play, I found myself almost forgetting which 'note' it was and looking at steps - instead of seeing it as "e" I was rationalizing the note as two steps above C...

I was kind of worried about how my mind will make these logical connections - I know the memory's based on relative matter. How is 'this' relative to 'that' and such, I wanted to be cautious about developing bad habits that would be hard to break. So maybe that wasn't so bad then... I think, for me, it's still a necessary step to get the letters down pat, at that point, I'll take this into consideration! I do find; however, the letters don't help me in reading the notes as much as they do navigating the keyboard.

Not sure why, but this thread reminded me of an interesting little thing someone emailed me sometime ago - about how the brain actually processes words in reading - it's not exactly what you might think - take a look at the below: (cool, huh?)


Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Some food for thought on music reading too - I'm sure it works very similiar to this when reading music... How exactly it would apply? I have no clue

[leucippus]

I think, for me, it's still a necessary step to get the letters down pat, at that point, I'll take this into consideration!

(Ha ha)  Funny thing, I just got done pointing you to this thread from your "Newbie" thread.

I agree that learning the letter names of the notes is still quite important overall.  I just don't think it's a good method for sight-reading.  But it has other uses for sure.  Especially if you are going to analyze or compose music at all.

I'm well aware of the Cambridge research.   Makes me kind of upset that they made such a big deal about spelling in schools.

[overcast_32]

(Ha ha)  Funny thing, I just got done pointing you to this thread from your "Newbie" thread.

I agree that learning the letter names of the notes is still quite important overall.  I just don't think it's a good method for sight-reading.  But it has other uses for sure.  Especially if you are going to analyze or compose music at all.

I'm well aware of the Cambridge research.   Makes me kind of upset that they made such a big deal about spelling in schools.

ok, thanks for the info I don't feel bad about 'forgetting' the notes at all now! lol Actually, the very best guitarist I know, couldn't read music if he tried... lol. He's a fantastic by-ear player.