do you believe in aliens?

[runescapeboy]

wel for myself i believe in aliens why? because of there is human kindthen why shouldnt there be life form far far away?

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

What kind of life are you talking about? There are bacteria on asteroids, so would they be considered aliens too?

Concerning intelligent extraterrestrials, it is wise to assume that perhaps they aren't as extraterrestrial as thought. Earth might have been their original planet, and are now either residing on some other planet or under the oceans. It is important to understand that not all sightings of alleged UFO are what they seem to be. Perhaps someone is developing aircrafts that resemble flying saucers to either scare people into believing or to test out new equipment. It is a well documented fact that during the major wars the number of sightings increased. Well, well; UFO's peering in on us and our destructive ways, or new aircrafts trying to spook the other nations?

[pianistimo]

back in lancaster i saw a round spacecraft, myself.  it had some colored lights all around and in fact, made me keep looking for wings.  i saw none.  either it was a helicopter and my eyesight had already started deteriorating - or it was, in fact, an unusual type of spacecraft.  flying fairly low to the ground and not at all in a straight pattern.  sort of up, down, and around as though it were dodging detection.  of course, with technology today - can one beam some light into the darkness and have a sort of 'virtual' spacecraft? or, little remote controlled ones?

[nanabush]

I dun really believe in UFO sightings on earth, but then again, my opinion will quickly change one I experience something like this first hand.  But I honestly believe, in another galaxy there has to be, out of the millions of celestial bodies, there has to be one with life.  If there isn't one, just think for a sec, the chances that one out of how many ever billion w/e's has life... I can't begin to think about that, there has to be life somewhere else!

[leucippus]

If anyone truly understands the size of even just the observable universe, and has the slightest clue of the nature of physics, they would surely necessarily believe that we earth is not the only place in the universe where life has evolved.

Of course, sadly there are an amazing number of humans who freely choose to continue to live in the dark ages of superstition and ignorance. 

[debussy symbolism]

I think that it is important to have an open mind, but also to not lose a sense of reality, because yes, there is a very probable possibility of intelligent life out there, but there is also a probability that someone is going to fake a UFO "incident".

[leucippus]

I think that it is important to have an open mind, but also to not lose a sense of reality, because yes, there is a very probable possibility of intelligent life out there, but there is also a probability that someone is going to fake a UFO "incident".

This is true.  But believing in the existence of aliens, and believing that they are actually visiting the earth are two entirely different things.

The question of the thread is simply "Do you believe in aliens?"

Not, "Do you believe we are being visited by aliens?"

I don't believe in that latter, although I wouldn't rule out the possibility.  I just don't think it's very likely.  Also, I personally believe that if aliens did visit us they would make themselves known.  I don't think a species is going to travel large distances just to become peeping Toms.  They are probably going to want to try to communicate intelligently. 

Also, their technology would be so great that they certainly wouldn't need us for anything (like to eat or whatever  ) 

I mean, they are hardly going to be low-mentality monsters after having figured out how to travel through interstellar space.  Their intellectual maturity would be far superior to ours.

However, there are probably a lot of aliens out there who are just as stupid and helpless as we are and they are stuck on their own little ball of dirt wondering if we might exist.

[debussy symbolism]

Concerning the notion of aliens visiting us, it is entirely possible because many ancient civilizations depict spececrafts in the sky. In ancient egypt there is actually a tablet with a drawing of an "alien", or the "skywalker" as they called them. Looking at the human development also puts "alien" visitation in perspective. The very early humans were very savage, not civilized in any way except that of the most primitive. Then all of a sudden, they started to develop quite rapidly. What happened? I am not saying that the aliens taught us something, but something sure did. It could have been just natural that we "realized".

Concerning aliens making their presence known, it would be most unwise because think of what the people are going to do when some entity climbs out of a specefraft and says "hi". It is going to be a pandemonium to say the least. And like the extraterrestrials have nothing better to do than to introduce themselves to us. Perhaps they are searching for other planets to habitate, because theirs is getting full. There are probably other planets that are habitable so it is wise to populate them.

[prometheus]

wel for myself i believe in aliens why? because of there is human kind then why shouldnt there be life form far far away?

You mean alien life or alien intelligence? Or maybe UFO drivers?

The fact that humans exist does not mean there has to be intelligent live elsewhere as per definition. It would mean that humans also existed on other planets, which is impossible according to evolution in the sense that it is extremely unlikely.

As for life on other planets. It is still a very difficult question.


We now know that rocky planets do exist around other stars.
We know that bacteria can eat of rock, without sunlight, in very hot water, survive being freezed, etc. But no bacteria has all the qualities at the same time.

Since in our solar system there are more than one rocky planets with atmospheres we can expect the same with those rocky planets, though we still can't be sure of this unless we found a rocky planet with atmosphere around another star.

I could go on but I don't really see the point. We have the drake equasion. And the variables differ so greatly the results range from 0 to millions.

[pianistimo]

what if when Christ returns, people think He's an alien?  even his own disciples just stood there gaping when he reappeared after the ressurrection.  he surprised them by asking if they had anything to eat.  suppose that was a sort of trick to eat something and not have to use the bathroom.  in any case,  anything different from what we know here on earth is 'alien.'  that would encompass pretty much any other ways of getting around.

there's some place in the bible that talks about wheels within wheels (a sort of round mobile) but i forget where it is.  it intrueiged me when i read it. 

angels would be another strange phenomenon to encounter - and according to some they've seen a few.  i wouldn't doubt all of us at one time or other have had timely help from someone that we hardly know.  what if we never will know until we are told.  they are said to look just like men (physical people).  the angels of the bible all seemed to have the masculine gender.  i don't recall any female angels.  no jokes, thal.  seems a bit suspicious already since we know it is possible for a female to be an angel temporarily.

(*once saw this movie entitled 'my angel' or something - where all this lady angel can do is go 'peep' peep.  and the guy that finds her has to try to get rid of her.  he takes her to a church.  have to look up the title again.  fairly hilarious movie).

[leucippus]

I could go on but I don't really see the point. We have the drake equasion. And the variables differ so greatly the results range from 0 to millions.

Forget about the Drake equation.   The Drake equation works from the little picture up.   Think of it from the big picture and work backwards this way,…

There are only a handful of natural elements in the universe (under 200 of them).  It appears that they are distributed pretty much in the same proportions throughout the observable universe.   So we can think of the universe as a huge crock pot that contains the ideal ingredients in the correct proportions for the recipe of life.

Astronomers currently believe that there are approximately 70 thousand million million million stars in the observable universe. (that represents the number of chances for life to evolved because we at least need a star for this to occur)

Now, just for kicks let's suppose that life has a one-in-a-million chance of evolving near some star.   That would be the same as saying that the Drake equation turns out to be 1-in-million.  That would mean that there are 70 thousand million million stars that are supporting some form of life.  In other words 1-star in a million gives birth to life.

Ok, don't like that figure.  How about we say that the chance for life to evolved on a star is not 1-in-million, not 1-in-10 million, not 1-in-a-100 million, not 1-in-a-thousand million, not 1-in-ten-thousand million, and not even one in a hundred-thousand million.

Let's assume that life only evolves with a chance of one-in-a-milllion-milllion.  That's really a very slim chance considering that there are only 200 different elements and they appear to be in pretty much the same proportions throughout the crock pot.

Yet, that would mean that there would still be 70 thousand million stars supporting life.

Or maybe you would like to be a real skeptic and say that life only evolves once-in-a-million-million-million chances.  Personally I think that's absurd considering the conditions of the soup in the crock pot.  But even if you go to that extreme you still would have 70 thousand stars supporting life.

I personally believe that life has a lot better chance than even one-in-a-million-million chance which would yield the 70 thousand million stars (or more) supporting life as I said previously. I believe that this is a more realistic figure based on the conditions of the soup.  The ingredients are just too perfectly proportioned for the recipe.  It's almost as if the soup was put together for the purpose of cooking up life.

Life in the universe just isn't all that rare in the big picture, I don't think.

[pianowolfi]

I actually don't know what to think about aliens. They come from Hollywood, don't they? It's something totally different with angels. These don't have a physical body like we have. But Aliens are always described as beings with a physical body. And the planets where beings like these can exist are too far away. So I rather don't believe they would come here. But perhaps they exist somewhere out there.

[pianistimo]

what about the angels that visited lot and warned him and his family to flee sodom and gommorrah?  or, many other places in the bible that both prophets and regular people saw angels.  mary magdalene saw one at the tomb where Christ had been ressurrected.  he spoke in a regular voice to her and said 'do not be afraid...' 

there are so many people even today that claim that at the time they needed critical help - a person was there and then disappeared.  i tend to believe them because it does happen sometimes (and has in my own life).  sometimes it may be a kind stranger.  but, God can send an angel just as easily.  after all, that is what they were created for.  to serve God and mankind.  we are right now 'under the angels, but it does not appear what we shall be...'  we are destined to be above them in the ressurrection of the dead.  they already have 'eternal life' i think - but we do not.  we are not able to give ourselves eternal life.

[debussy symbolism]

Eternal mind and eternal being is a capability of humanity. In my opinion, it is only attainable through religion, art, science. In my opinion, the primary function of humans is art and intellect. Everything else comes later. Mindlessly following a religion isn't going to make you eternal; living life to the fullest and listening to yourself and your morals and trying to permeate through the mysteries of the world through art and science is the way to be eternally at peace in my opinion. I am not saying that religion is not meaningful, I am just saying that a person has to trust himself and himself only first of all, and trusting God is an option to him and to him only. Religion gives humanity hope and a sense of belonging, but it must not divert a man from his own morals. If religion stated that the followers must not do something that clearly is irreconcilable to the follower's morals or standarts, is the religion correct?

[pianistimo]

but, we wouldn't even know there was such a thing as good and evil without God explaining it.

[debussy symbolism]

According to Shakespeare, "Nothing is good or bad, our mind makes it so." Humans are very complex. We have not explained our mind, and there are many things that we do not fully know. Our own internal make up and the laws of nature are the things that give us morals.

This is kind of a "nature vs. nurture" argument that could go on forever. In my opinion, which I do believe in, our morals are that of natural origin. Animals care only about survival and do not care if someone is eating at their friend. Humans however will care because that is a part of our sub sub conscious, which has been developing for as long as humanity existed. I think this idea was adopted by Jung if I am correct.

Interesting thing is that our morals may have been actually etched in us by extraterrestrials, but that is kind of a by product of intelligence. If we really were visited by aliens, then the intellect that they gave us subsequently gave us morals as well.

[pianistimo]

after all the genocides of the world...i highly doubt or believe that humans innately have constraints that they willingly place upon themselves at all times.

[debussy symbolism]

That is also true. Humans do also bear a characteristic of being a potentate, hence all the wars. This is of course also a human nature.

[quasimodo]

What I believe doesn't matter.
What I know is that the probability that life exists in other planets is HUGE, and the one that it evolved to a comparable level of intelligence as on earth is high.
However it's probability, nothing else.

[jas]

I find it odd when people say they don't believe that there's intelligent life elsewhere. We've become so used to shooting down theories about anything that we can't see or touch that when it comes to something that's almost certainly true, we're still refusing to believe it.

[timothy42b]

Given a billion galaxies, each with a billion stars, I'd feel silly claiming there couldn't be life somewhere else.

But given the enormous distances involved, I'd say it is impossible we'll ever be visited by aliens.

Good thing, too.  If they are advanced enough to get here, they're advanced enough to wipe us out.  If they're paranoid enough to have survived, they're motivated to wipe ;us out.  That is pretty good proof we've never been visited.  Hopefully we never will be. 

[pianistimo]

playing the devils advocate - what about their wiping out wheat fields with circular motions of some kind with their whirling cutters?  sort of a 1/2 and 1/2 travel and hair cutting type lawnmower machine?  they land. cut. take back wheat.  or is it corn.  maybe they didn't like it so they didn't come back?

[prometheus]

If they're paranoid enough to have survived, they're motivated to wipe ;us out.

It also means they have been timid enough to handle thermonuclear weapons, or even more powerful stuff like anti-matter weapons and survive.



Let me get a few things straight. I think the Drake equasion is totally overrated. My point was the opposite. This is not a discussion about if life exists. It is not a discussion where on says 'one in a million' and where the other counters with 'I have a billion million'.

The question is: how probable is life?

The universe may be so big that there are as many planets with intelligent life as we know there are stars right now. The point is that this may be true while at the same time the light of any of these stars will never reach our part of the universe before the death of the universe. So in that case it is totally irrelevant to us if they exist or not. They will never be able to send any information inside our universe.

But life may be absurdly rare.

So the question is not if there is a life in 'the universe'. The question is if there is life in 'our universe' or rather 'our reality'. Will life be probable enough, intelligent or not, to be so probable that it is near us? Or if it is improbable maybe through random chance there is a planet with life on it quite near eventhough probablility made it very unlikely.


So I think that the argument of numbers doesn't mean very much. We don't know the numbers and we don't know the probability. Like someone did above, if the probability gets smaller you just 'overrule' it with numbers. I don't think we can just ignore probability because of numbers. Because one could just as well rule out numbers because of probability. One should do neither.

While one could say it would be strange if we are truly totally alone in all the universe, that's about the only thing one can say.

[pianistimo]

we're only totally alone without God.  He fills the entire creation with His love according to the bible.  everything has an order to it.  it is like parents creating a mobile above a crib, imo.  we can look at the stars and sometimes planets - the moon, the sun.  everything is 'ordained' by Him.  that, to me, means has certain laws that guide it's being.  take each planet.  each one is entirely different in the amount of this or that and is unique.  it's not like all the planets suddenly broke from one another.  they are too different. 

[johnny-boy]

Yes, I believe in aliens - because I'm one.

John

[thalbergmad]

Yes, I believe in aliens - because I'm one.

John

Join the Club old boy, so am i.

My ancestors came from the Andromeda Galaxy and came to Earth in about 15,000 BC and built Atlantis.

I am pretty sure Pianistimo is an alien as well.

Thal

[johnny-boy]

Join the Club old boy, so am i.

My ancestors came from the Andromeda Galaxy and came to Earth in about 15,000 BC and built Atlantis.

I am pretty sure Pianistimo is an alien as well.

Thal

Wow, we were neighbors! These Earthlings are strange creatures aren't they Thal?

Best, John

[thalbergmad]

https://www.megaupload.com/?d=CPK7ZWP7

If this is a fake, it is a good one.

Mind you, I am easily fooled.

Thal

[pianistimo]

uploading aliens now, are we? 

[pianowolfi]

https://www.megaupload.com/?d=CPK7ZWP7

If this is a fake, it is a good one.

Mind you, I am easily fooled.

Thal

That looks like a missile or rocket. Never an ufo.

[prometheus]

If you see a missile or rocket but don't know what it is then what do we call it?


Right.

[pianowolfi]

If you see a missile or rocket but don't know what it is then what do we call it?


Right.

Ok then it's an ufo. But not an extraterrestrial one. Manmade.

[thalbergmad]

If you see a missile or rocket but don't know what it is then what do we call it?

Superman

[debussy symbolism]

Ok then it's an ufo. But not an extraterrestrial one. Manmade.

Yes.

[thalbergmad]

https://www.megaupload.com/?d=4AAL9Q6X

Check this.

Thal

[mephisto]

I do only belive in the biblical God, nothing else.

What on earth is the probability that aliens exist? I can`t  exactly remember reading about them in the one and only Bibel!

[thalbergmad]

I do only belive in the biblical God, nothing else.

What on earth is the probability that aliens exist? I can`t  exactly remember reading about them in the one and only Bibel!

Somebody once told me that there is a bit about UFO's in Ezekiel.

I have never bothered to look this up.

Thal

[pianistimo]

there is some sort of contraption that God gets around in.  wheels within wheels or something.  yes.  thal, you do read the bible.  i forgot where it was.  i think it is in ezekiel as you say. 

ok.  mephisto, thal, pianowolfi (and the various others like prometheus that i won't give up on). - two down - 1 million to go.  God always seems to use the analogy of seed.  it sounds kinda like birdseed.  so you sow a little here and little there - dropping stuff as you go. 

i don't think aliens are necessary - but imagine that angels would SEEM like aliens if we saw them one moment and they disappeared the next.  take for instance the baptism of the eunuch in acts 8:39 'and when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.  but philip found himself at azotus; and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities, until he came to caesarea...'  now, granted that philip isn't an angel - but angels have the same capabilities since they are not bound by our time and space.

[mephisto]

Somebody once told me that there is a bit about UFO's in Ezekiel.

I have never bothered to look this up.

Thal

Blasphemy

[pianistimo]

ok. mephisto.  i should have known from your name.  you're playing devil's advocate only sometimes - so that i will shut up.  well, very well.  i will only state that i have only seen an angel once - but he was in the form of a nice person and never disappeared.  my daughter had passed out in the back seat from the flu and i was trying to revive her on the side of an offramp outside the car- and waving my hands to catch someone to call 911.  this guy stopped and was actually going to the hospital for chemotherapy himself - so i considered the quick within a minute stop an ANGEL.  but, perhaps he was an ordinary man doing an extraordinary thing.

revelations mentions a lot of strange pets in heaven, too.  a sort of conglomeration of head s of different animals and stuff.  i don't get if this was part of john's dream or real beings in heaven.  God can do pretty much whatever he wants - but typically i thought he didn't like mutations.

[prometheus]

I think the most common mentioned biblical passage that is claimed to refer to 'UFO''s is: " Elisha then beheld Elijah in a fiery chariot taken up by a whirlwind into heaven."

But that's not Ezekiel.

[pianistimo]

ezekiel 1:4-24 'and as i looked, behold a storm wind was coming from the north, a great cloud with fire flashing forth continually and a bright light around it, and in its midst something like glowing metal in the midst of fire.  and within it there were figures resembling four living beings.  and this was their appearance; they had human form.  each of them had four faces and four wings.  and their legs were straight and their feet were like calf's hoof, and they gleamed like burnished bronze.  under their wings on their four sides were human hands.  as for the faces and wings of the four of them, their wings touched one another; their faces did not turn when they moved, each went straight forward (this part confuses me).  as for the form of their faces, each had the face of a man, all four had the face of a lion on the right and the face of a bull on the left, and all four had the face of an eagle.  such were their faces.  their wings were spread out above; each had two touching another being, and two covering their bodies.  and each went straight forward ; wherever the spirit was about to go, they would go, without turning as they went.  (i guess they took turns)

rev. 4:7 and other places make these creatures sound as the seraphim that surround God Himself.  ezekiel 1:27 explains the Lord being over their heads.  his throne like lapis lazuli and himself 'His loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire; and there was aradiance around Him...such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.'

[pianowolfi]

i will only state that i have only seen an angel once - but he was in the form of a nice person and never disappeared. 

Ok i'm a bit confused about that subject. Above i intended to make a difference between angels and aliens. Angels are real beings for me, aliens aren't.

[pianistimo]

good point.  looks can be deceiving.  i mean...some people just appear at the right time and you're thinking 'is this an angel?'

aliens are easy to spot.  they are green.  they are fairly useless with language as we know it.  and, they cannot understand what you say.  angels are different.  they speak our language and can make 'flashy eyes.'  i don't know if they can rotate their heads completely around, though.

suppose that i should be serious.  otherwise, prometheus will call me silly again.

[mephisto]

ok. mephisto.  i should have known from your name.  you're playing devil's advocate only sometimes - so that i will shut up.  well, very well. 

Me, the devils advocate? Keep in mind that I have actually been to almost all of the holy places described in the Bibel.

[pianistimo]

so have i.  i'm an angel (you can tell by my good looks).  you're a devil.  (i can tell by your name).  let's have a duel.  tell me - what's in the water over there.  i simply had some ice in a drink and ended up getting 'montezuma's' and missed the bus tours.  so i practiced the piano when i was in israel.

[mephisto]

Liszt was an abbe, and he named one of his pieces mephisto waltz.

You should not drink the water over there, you have to buy the water i bottles. or get a cleanser.

[pianistimo]

mephisto is another name for mephistopholes.  i think he dances waltzes regularly around people that he is trying to influence.

[mephisto]

Waltz is quite a new dance.

[pianistimo]

he tangoed before that.