Looking for Sheet Music - Chopin Waltz

[FrancaV]

I have been reading this forum with great interest but have not joined previously because it looks as though technically I don't qualify for membership. (I am an adult returning to the piano after many years away from it, and am not a college student, though I am taking lessons.) I am sure everyone here is more knowledgeable and experienced than I am and I will try not to annoy the membership with silly posts. I beg your indulgence on this question - it may be elementary for most of you.

There seems to be considerable disagreement as to what constitutes the "Complete Chopin Waltzes". I have seen as few as 15 and as many as 21 waltzes included on such lists. So far I have been unable to find sheet music for a specific waltz, a Waltz in E Flat Major op. posth. of which there appear to be at least three - all sometimes referred to as Waltz No. 17. It doesn't help that not all sheet music vendors on the internet list which waltzes are included in their collections of "complete Chopin waltzes", but it seems fairly certain not to be included in any collection of fewer than 17 waltzes.

This waltz appears as the final track on both Vladimir Ashkenazy's (Decca 1986) and Jean-Marc Luisada's (DG 1991) CDs of Chopin waltzes. I would be most grateful if someone could point me towards a copy of the sheet music for this waltz!

[schnabels_grandson]

https://www.sheetmusicarchive.com  This site has two posthumous waltzes.  

[FrancaV]

Thank you very much for the link - unfortunately I had checked those and neither of them is in E flat major. This waltz is highly unlikely to appear as a free download anywhere, and I'm afraid it won't be included in any published collection of "most popular" Chopin music as it seems to be an oddity. A collection claiming to be the complete works for solo piano by Chopin includes only 15 waltzes ... I'm wondering what other posthumous solo piano pieces it may be missing.... Anyway, the search for my missing waltz goes on!

[Rach3]

No, no, no! It's NOT .COM, its .NET!! When will the people learn?

http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net

Of course it WON'T help you, the two posthumous waltzes are different ones in E minor and E major, respectively. I am looking at my complete waltzes (dover) and I see the one you are talking about, I have heard a recording of it once not Ashk or Luisada but I forget who; anyway I don't think you can find it online. Btw to my knowledge there are 17 Chopin waltzes, the one I am referring to is the 17th.

Oh wait this is a mystery... just checked the Henle online catalog, they have 19 waltzes in all, including another Eb major posthumous one, bringing the total to two... can you check there website and find out which one it is? They have a thematic index under "sample pages". (http://www.henle.de)

[FrancaV]

Well, I admit I'm feeling a little better now that I see that perhaps this is not quite such an easy question. Neither of the E flat major waltzes on the G. Henle site is the correct one. However, there are *three* posthumous waltzes in E flat major, and the one I am looking for would (I believe) appear last in any chronological listing of Chopin waltzes.

OK, let's try this. This link should take you to a page where you can select and listen to the last track on the Ashkenazy CD:

<https://www.iclassics.com/iclassics/album.jsp?selectionId=903>

This should at least identify the waltz I am trying to find and I am hoping someone will recognize it and say, "Oh, I have the sheet music for that waltz!" and tell me where I can find it.   Thanks for all of your help so far!

[Rach3]

Link doesn't work, probably dynamically generated or something took me to a blank page within the domain... anyway I this is quite a mystery, never seen the complete 21 waltzes you claim to exit. I've tried some googling, not very helpful, although anyone here with lots of patience might find something useful.

Tommorow afternoon (for those on other continents, about 18 hours from now) I will examine my local library's million-volume COMPLETE chopin works for everything and will hopefully be able to locate this oddity. I will also ask my piano teacher (PhD in musicology) for assistance.

[FrancaV]

For some reason the link in the forum message picks up the separator bracket at the end (but not the one at the beginning!) causing errors on the page, but if you manually edit the link to remove the closing bracket it works. Here it is without any brackets at all, which worked fine when I previewed my message and tested it just now:

https://www.iclassics.com/iclassics/album.jsp?selectionId=903

[FrancaV]

If I wasn't already confused enough ... now I've found a CD that lists 23 Chopin waltzes! Chopin: Complete Waltzes / Jerzy Sterczynski

https://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=2211&name_role1=1&comp_id=761&genre=138&bcorder=195&name_id=37494&name_role=2

Most CDs claiming to have all of the waltzes list 19 of them, but again, there is this strange disparity where some have fewer and some have more. Deeply puzzled....

[bernhard]

Only eight waltzes were published while Chopin was alive. Up to thirty years ago, most editions published only 14 waltzes, and these were the ones performers and public liked to think as the “complete” set. Then, as  research and scholarship developed, new works kept appearing (the posthumous Waltz in A minor was first published as late as 1955!).

Some of these recently discovered works (not only waltzes) maybe incomplete. Maybe Chopin would revise them extensively (he was known for that) before allowing for publication, had he not died. Maybe some are not by him.

As far as I know (and since I am not a Chopin scholar, it is really irrelevant what I know), there are now 19 published waltzes. The two editions I like the best are the Paderewsky edition and the Henle edition. The Henle has all the 19 waltzes, the Paderewsky 17 (the usual fourteen plus E major, Ab major and Eb major – nos. 15, 14 and 19 in the Henle edition).

As for your Waltz, it is no. 19 (Henle edition). You can also get it on the Paderewsky edition on the volume of Minor Works. By the way, this Waltz (composed in 1829/30) has had its authenticity questioned. In his set of the complete Chopin piano works (Decca), Ashkenazy plays it (Henle) on CD 8 – track 19.

I hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[FrancaV]

Thank you, Bernhard! I'll go have another look at Henle. I rather suspected that the reason this waltz appears so infrequently is that not everyone believes it to have been written by Chopin.

I find all this quite fascinating and if I were just starting out in a music career I might dig further. It would be interesting to know who else might have written the waltz, for instance. At this stage, however, I don't really care whether or not Chopin wrote the waltz - I just like it. There are a number of other Chopin waltzes that are favorite "old friends" to me; I was introduced to them as a child on my parents' Dinu Lipatti album. This waltz struck me as I first heard it about ten years ago and it was clearly different from the others. I am not at all surprised its authenticity has been questioned, but I am grateful that someone thought it to be Chopin, otherwise I would likely never have heard it.

[bernhard]

You are correct.

Most pianists will not bother with this waltz (and other works as well) unless they are recording a complete set. And to add insult to injury,  this waltz is considered musically inferior to his other waltzes.  
As one critic put it:

"The dubious authenticity of this piece is reinforced by the uncharacteristic lumpy patterns of the RH" (E. Bailie)

Not very flattering, is it? (Like you, however, I actually like it ).

[FrancaV]

LOL! Extremely *un*flattering. But no matter. I knew from the start I would never make a professional pianist. While I can admire and appreciate great piano works played well by others I'm not really interested in playing pieces that don't speak to me in some way. I admit that with perseverance I have sometimes found a connection in pieces that I disliked initially, but for the most part I feel there are so many pieces I love that I'm unwilling to waste my precious piano time playing those that I don't.

I am currently playing a Kuhlau Sonatina (Op. 55 No.1), which is not a piece I had ever played when I was younger. It is not at all a difficult piece, of course, but it is a bit more challenging than the extremely easy (and familiar) pieces I had chosen to "warm up" with before I started taking lessons again. The first time I played the Kuhlau for my teacher she said, "You like this piece, don't you?" Yes, it's always quite obvious whether or not I like what I'm playing. Ah, well ....

I have ordered the Henle edition of the Chopin waltzes. Something to look forward to as I get my fingers back in shape. Thanks so much for your help!

Franca

[bernhard]

You are welcome!