Perfect Pitch

[amanfang]

I'm sure there's been a topic on this before (or several), but......

Can perfect pitch be learned?  The thought intrigues me.  I saw an ad for this in a magazine...  https://www.perfectpitch.com/   They have a money-back guarantee.  Any thoughts?

[jre58591]

on that note (no pun intended), you can take a perfect pitch test here:

https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/tunetest/dtt.asp

[amanfang]

    That was pretty funny.  Sounds like some of my students sometimes....

[leucippus]

As far as I know it's only possible to have perfect pitch when playing



  Horseshoes 





Really

[invictious]

Well perfect pitch can't be trained, but you can be trained to recognize the notes played etc.

That'd be called pitch memory or whatever, but you can't train perfect pitch as far as I know


Many of you think it'd be perfect to be synaesthetic and have perfect pitch at the same time, and YES IT IS!!
(I am just in case you didn't know)

[prometheus]

Of course perfect pitch is learned.

[Kassaa]

Of course perfect pitch is learned.

Can you explain how? I don't actually think you can.

[prometheus]

Obviously one has to learn it because the pitches of western music were chosen arbitrarily. They were even different in the past.

How can these numbers be hard wired in our genes?


I am not saying everyone will be able to learn it, though this is probably true as well. I am saying that everyone that does have absolute pitch had to learn it.



How it is learned? I don't know. But how is it part of instinct?

[invictious]

I'd that be called pitch memory, which certainly can be trained, but perfect pitch is innate, and well, they have perfect pitch.

2 types:
active: They can recognize and sing the note out
passive: they can recognize only

That's why singing is so difficult.

[prometheus]

Again, if they don't memorise the sound of the music then how can it be innate? How does the sound of our music get into their DNA?

[leucippus]

but perfect pitch is innate

This is a very common myth that necessary has to be false for the reasons that Prometheus gave.

The western scales are contrived by men.  Nature has no knowledge of western scales.  To suggest that someone could be born with perfect absolute pitch would be no different than suggesting that someone could be born already knowing the alphabet.

Now some people do seem to have a better natural ability to categorize and remember specific tones.  And it could be argued that this ability is innate.  But that's not the same as actually being born with perfect pitch.  The pitches must still be learned.

Moreover, many would argue (including myself) that most humans are born with the ability to categorize and remember specific tones.  It's just that most humans don't see this as being important.  So most people just simply don't do it.  It's not that they can't do it.  They just never saw any value in trying to lock onto an absolute pitch when the real essence of music is in the ability to produce good relative pitch or intonation.

[prometheus]

Of course humans have the innate ability to learn

Humans have the innate ability to understand language, something you don't just 'learn' or 'memorise'.

The same goes for music. Everyone has the ability to 'activate' absolute pitch up to some degree. But not everyone does this. This does not mean that you don't have to 'activate' or 'learn' it.

When something is learned it does not mean everyone can do it.

[steve_m]

2

[franzliszt2]

Perfect pitch is inborn. I was never taught it, I just assumed that everybody could recognise notes and name the key of pieces of music. I instantly hear a pitch as a specific pitch. I don't no why, or how, but I do. I can do it with any noise, even when people fart. Being able to recognise notes is not perfect pitch. It's just relative. I no loads of people who can recognise notes on there instruments, or who can sing an A or whatever, but thats not perfect pitch.

It's like colour, you cannot teach a colour blind person to have perfect colour co-ordination. Only most people are tone deaf. If you need more than a second to recognise a pitch, or a chord, you do not have perfect pitch. It's an INSTANT recognition. Can you hear any piece of music and name the key ? and always be accurate

I conclude that perfect pitch cannot be learned, and it's better spending time developing relative pitch if you don't have perfect pitch. Plus perfect pitch can be a bit irritatating, but also helpful in strange situations. Like I can tell what every beep in my kitchen is, I no the cooker is B, microwave G, washing machine C#, so I don't have to see if my food is cooked everytime I hear a beep. Comes in very handy

[prometheus]

Perfect pitch is inborn.

[...]

I don't no why, or how, but I do.

You contradict yourself.

Plus perfect pitch can be a bit irritatating, but also helpful in strange situations. Like I can tell what every beep in my kitchen is, I no the cooker is B, microwave G, washing machine C#, so I don't have to see if my food is cooked everytime I hear a beep. Comes in very handy

This is even worse. You claim that it is irritating. Then you want to explain why. And when you are finished explaining you claim it is handy.

Now, 'handy' and 'irritating' aren't totally contradicting but this just doesn't make any sense.

[leucippus]

Perfect pitch is inborn. I was never taught it,

I instantly hear a pitch as a specific pitch. I don't no why, or how, but I do.

I conclude that perfect pitch cannot be learned,

No one ever said that it had to be taught.  They only said that it can only be learned.  It is perfectly reasonable that you learned this on your own even though you may not have been consciously aware that you were learning it.  We all learn to do a lot of things without realizing that we are learning them.

Also, you conclude that perfect pitch cannot be learned.  But what do you base this conclusion on?

It's already been pointed out that western scales are arbitrary conventions chosen by humans.  It's absolutely, positively, unequivocally impossible to be born with perfect pitch because of this fact.   For that to happen, not only would nature need to know ahead of time what tones where arbitrarily chosen by men, but nature would also need to be biased about who to chose to bestow with this ability.  After all, if you were born in a culture that doesn't use western scales you're so-called western "perfect pitch" would be totally imperfect.

There is no question whatsoever that it is a learned ability.  It simply has to be.  The better question to ask is why do some people chose to focus on absolute pitches (even if subconsciously) and therefore lock absolute tones into their memory, while the vast majority of people don't see this as being important and therefore don't bother to do it?

Obviously it's not important.  People who have learned to remember and thus produce or recall absolute pitches haven't shown any advantages from having acquired this ability.

It may be true that some people who have learned absolute pitch also just coincidentally happen to be gifted in other ways (perhaps musically).  However, there is definitely no correlation between having perfect pitch and being a good musician.  There is a lot more to being a good musician than being able to remember precise tones.  In fact, being able to remember precise tones is not even important at all to becoming a good musician.

I don't know why people are so insistent about claiming that they are "born" with this ability.  Like as if it's something innately special.  It's not.  And I don't mean to be bursting their bubbles by saying that.  But really, logic dictates that it's impossible to be born with perfect pitch.  Western pitches are arbitrarily chosen by men and have even been changed over the ages.  So the whole notion of being born with perfect pitch is simply absurd.  It is necessarily learned.  In fact, they wouldn't even be able to name the tones until they are old enough to have at least learned the alphabet.  Unless they want to claim that they were born already knowing the alphabet too! In that case maybe they are reincarnations and they can even remember what their previous name used to be too! 

[steve_m]

f

[leucippus]

It isn't coincidental that people with perfect pitch are also musicians.  You say yourself it is learned, but if you didn't play an instrument, when would you learn? 

I certainly agree with you on this.  But I didn't say that people with perfect pitch coincidentally happen to be musicians.  I said that it's coincidental when they are gifted musicians.

In other words, there are a lot of gifted musicians who don't have perfect pitch (probably the vast majority of gifted musicians don't have perfect pitch). 

Moreover, there are a lot of musicians who claim to have perfect pitch, but their performance is fairly average or even below average. 

So my only point is to wonder why any musician would even be concerned with how to learn perfect pitch.   It just doesn't seem to have any musical value at all.   Unless of course, what they really meant was "perfect relative pitch" which is actually a whole different thing.  Most musicians do have a pretty good sense of relative pitch, and that can certainly be taught and/or learned via practice by most anyone.

[franzliszt2]

How am I contradicting myself. If you read what said, I said it can be irritating, BUT, can be handy. It can be both irritating and handy, how on earth is that a contraditction. Obviously it's annoying when I go to a country with different tuning. We use 440, whilst in Germany the use 442. That can be a bit irritating.

And how is saying I don't no how or why, but I do contradicting. I have no explanation for my perfect pitch. I did not in anyway attempt to learn it. I didn't no what it was til I was 15, I assumed that everyone could hear like I do. And what do you mean we learn things without realsing it? I started playing at 11 and could recognise the pitches and assumed that was normal. Everyone I've met with PP was born with it, how can you explain otherwise. How do you no what colours are?? How do you no red is red? Obviously someone told you, but you had the abilty to retain that information and recall it in an instant. Why? How can you do that? Nobody know's! Why are people colour blind? They don't no. It's exactly the same concept.

Leucippus you are so wrong in so many ways. How can you learn it? Tell me, I no loads of people who have "learnt" it, and they are never accurate all the time, NEVER. Recognising notes is not perfect pitch. Best test, is to sit through an orchestral piece and name every chord, and every modulation accuratly. Obviously I can get confused sometimes, but that lasts 2 seconds at most, and thats in complex works, lke Wagner etc..

And you say it has no musical value at all?? It is the most useful thing ever in aural exams. Perfect relative pitch is in with perfect pitch, I can hear intervals, but I can name the individual notes, so obviously using theory can work the interval. Perfect pitch has nothing to do with performance, it doesn't help me How is it coincidental?? Theres a large proportion of perfect pitch people at my conservatoire, and certainly in others. You sound to me like a person who's bitter against people with perfect pitch, you would obviously have it if you were offered it.

The reason you get people with perfect pitch saying it is inborn is because it is, and people without it think they can learn it. They never will. They can recognise the note of a piano, but ask them what note the airplanes engine up above is, and they can't.

Hope theres no contraditctions there for you to pick up on, if there is please let me no, becasue I don't want to 

[prometheus]

Did you attempt to learn your native language?

You are just ignorant about human cognition and confused about what you want to say.

[franzliszt2]

How on earth am I ignorant? How am I confused? It's obvious what I'm saying.

Did I attempt to learn my native language? What has this got to do with bloody language? It's a pianoforum, not english language grammer correct forum forum is it? Fair enough I'm not good at grammer, but what has that got to do with perfect pitch. You seem hellbent on believing perfect pitch can be developed, and as soon as anyone dissagrees you shoot them down with all this human learning stuff. Perfect pitch is a mystery, there has been so signifacant theory's to prove how it is developed.

You seriously don't get perfect pitch, it is not memorising or learning what things sound like. It's an abilty, if you could develop it every musician would have it. How am I ignorant about human cognition? You are claiming that perfect pitch can be "learned" Why not check out the english language yourself before trying to inslut mine.

Why don't you inderstand that it is not linked with memory? When I hear music I get a feel for the key. I just know what key it's in, and the is reinforced by the fact I can hear all the notes. I think you must find this confusing to understand, but you must understand, I find it confusing that people can not hear the key of pieces and name pitches etc.. BECAUSE I don't no any different, I've ALWAYS been like this, hence I did NOT learn it. As soon as I found out the name of the pitches (CDEFGA etc..) I could name them all by hear. Now please tell me if you don't understand that.

Could some people with perfect pitch please back me up here, maybe someone else can explain it in simple terms to this guy.

Also, you conclude that perfect pitch cannot be learned.  But what do you base this conclusion on?

The fact that out of all the people I've met who have tried to learn it still don't have total and absloute perfect pitch. Yes they can identify pitch, but they still don't have it. And I've never heard of anyone who's develped it. If you're theory is correct, why don't they teach perfect pitch to people at conseravtoires? 

[leucippus]

You sound to me like a person who's bitter against people with perfect pitch, you would obviously have it if you were offered it.

Just using logic alone I'm convinced that it is impossible to be born with perfect pitch.  I think the logic speaks for itself to any rational person.  You can't even begin to name notes until you've at least learned the alphabet.  That should be obvious.  And the arbitrary choice of tones by humans just blows away any possible questions concerning that matter as far as I can see.

I also believe that most people with good hearing could learn perfect pitch if they really wanted to because it's obviously an acquired skill.

Finally, I'm just as convinced that most people wouldn't want to bother learning it because it has no practical value especially with respect to music.

You say you can name chords as you hear them being played.  So how is that helpful to your musicality other than possibly saving you money on buying written score.  I think most people who merely have good relative pitch can probably do that.  Especially within the context of a concert.  Heck, I used to transcribe rock & roll music by ear myself when I was a teenager, and I don't even have perfect pitch.  I ultimately might have transcribed it into a different key, but so what?

It's all relative.  It's still music.

I'm not bitter against people who have perfect pitch.  I'm just saying that it's not possible to have been born with it.  That's simply impossible in light of the fact that the scales are arbitrarily chosen by men.   How can you argue with that?

If you take that as an insult, that's your problem.  I'm just saying that you necessarily had to have learned it whether you are aware of having learned it or not.  You couldn't possibly have been born with it.  Nothing bitter about that.  It's just an obvious fact as far as I'm concerned. 

[prometheus]

How on earth am I ignorant? How am I confused? It's obvious what I'm saying.

First, because you claim to know that one cannot learn perfect pitch, but at the same time you think that the nature of perfect pitch is a total mystery. They just contradict.

The other example is where you claim to explain why perfect pitch is annoying but then go on to tell us why it is handy.

Did I attempt to learn my native language? What has this got to do with bloody language? It's a pianoforum, not english language grammer correct forum forum is it?

Because music is a by product of language. One learns about music as one learns about language because the same system is in operation.

Fair enough I'm not good at grammer, but what has that got to do with perfect pitch.

You totally missed the point. I am not trying to correct your grammar. My point was that all people learn language without trying to learn it. This shows the nature of learning in humans. The fact that you claim that you have not learned perfect pitch because there wasn't a concious attempt to do so means nothing. Humans often automatically learn something. Most of the things you have learned you just absord automatically from your enviroment.

Humans are born with the genetic potentional to develop things like language, morality, social constructions. Under influence of their enviroment these systems develop in a particular way. This means one cannot teach a human, or animal, through reward and punishment. A child needs to be subjected to the right kinds of influence and these abillities will literally 'grow' in the right way. Really as organs, though we are talking about neurological connections.

This means all humans, that are healthy, have the natural ability to develop language. They aren't born with the ability to understand language. They do have the ability to automatically learn when one is subjected to language. When one is no longer a child one has to learn language differently. You have to actively learn it.
When one is not subjected to langauge one will never learn, no matter how talented.

If one lacks the genetic basis to learn langauge one will never be able to do so.

The same is probably true with perfect pitch. Of course through pure logic one can deduct that one can't have all this programmed in their genes. But when you understand the way humans learn something you know how perfect pitch may develop. Both contradict your ideas.

Perfect pitch is a mystery, there has been so signifacant theory's to prove how it is developed.

Again you contradict yourself.

You seriously don't get perfect pitch, it is not memorising or learning what things sound like. It's an abilty,

You are right here. You need to listen to a particular kind of element in the sound of a note. Once you condiction yourself to be aware of this you will slowly start to learn it, or not. Fact is that you have to be conditioned.

...if you could develop it every musician would have it. How am I ignorant about human cognition?

Every human can learn Mandarin or Finnish. Of course many people speak Mandarin and very little speak Finnish, but not everyone can speak it just because it can be learned. This is silly. The most difficults fields in math, everyone can learn it but very few people know it.
The fact that something can, or must, be learned does not mean everyone can do it. Obviously.

Also, eventhough these languages are learned not everyone trying to learn them will succes. It has nothing to do with the fact that it is learned or not. Learning doesn't mean you can do something when you try eventhough you couldn't before.

You are claiming that perfect pitch can be "learned" Why not check out the english language yourself before trying to inslut mine.

Why do you think I 'insulted', or critisized your English. If you found errors in mine, I am not a native speaker. English is my third language.

Why don't you inderstand that it is not linked with memory?

I never used the word 'memory' in that way. You are making a straw man. Learning langauge isn't 'just memory' either. Learning perfect pitch doesn't mean just memorising those notes. But if you don't you will never be able to name notes.

I think you must find this confusing to understand,

Why would I be confused?

BECAUSE I don't no any different, I've ALWAYS been like this, hence I did NOT learn it.

And I don't remember a time where I did not understand Dutch, my first language. Does that mean I never learned it? Uuh...

Could some people with perfect pitch please back me up here, maybe someone else can explain it in simple terms to this guy.

I know what perfect pitch is.

The fact that out of all the people I've met who have tried to learn it still don't have total and absloute perfect pitch.

Yes, it is very hard to learn. Most that try to learn it at later age will never become 'naturals' at it. But that doesn't mean the 'naturals' never learned it.

And I've never heard of anyone who's develped it. If you're theory is correct, why don't they teach perfect pitch to people at conseravtoires? 

They do teach perfect pitch at some conservatories. Why I don't teach it? I switched careers.

[franzliszt2]

It's a total mystery because people don't no how people have it!! People with PP have not went out of there way to learn it. So it is a mystery! That is quite simple to understand, I'm sorry if you don't, but that really is your problem. You are born with the abilty, then when you learn the alphebet, and learn the names of the notes, you have now aquired the skill to name them. So perfect pitch has been there since the start.  You are born with the abilty to recognise colour yeh? But you can only use it when you are told what each colour is called. It's exactly the same concept.

HANDY AND ANNOYING!! Going to the toilet is handy yet annoying. Don't you get that? Things can be good and bad. ok, lets put it simple..

Handy.......Pass aural exams, can tune instruments, can transcribe things with ease.

Annoying.....When things are out of tune, or use different tuning systems, when people play stuff in the wrong key.


Get it? Thats not a contradiction.

Perfect pitcch cannot be linked with language learning. However surveys show that Asians have a higher percentage of perfect pitch people, because a lot Asian languages depend on pitch. We learn language because we are taught it by our parents. My parents didn't sit and go....A..., Bb... on the piano. Therefore I was NOT taught perfect pitch. As I said, I was not aware of it until I was 11.

The contraditon, I meant to say it is a mystery, NO significant theory's have be made to prove anything about it. Again, even though I used the word so, It's not a contradition., man you need to learn the meaning of that word.

What conservatoires teach perfect pitch? In my conservatoire, we do tests, and the people with perfect pitch are put in a different class, BECAUSE they have huge advantages, ie.. what key does it modulate to, a million times easier for someone with perfect pitch.

But people are born with abilties that other people are not. Thats the mystery, why can some people remember HUGE amounts of information wirth ease, how can people play piano, it's an inborn abilty. Obviosly it has to be developed, like perfect pitch. Obviosly in early days,m someone with PP cannot name the key of a piece of music, becasue they don't know what a key is, but once they get told, E major, C major, they do recognise it. But that abilty IS inborn. Every human is different, the way you put it is that all humans can learn whatever they want. WRONG! I no people wjo are at Cambridge, Oxford, super intelligent people, who are terrible at maths, or terrible at english, yet they have tried to learn it. WHY? becasue they don't have that abilty.

I feel outnumbered here, people on the forum with perfect pitch PLEASE I BEG YOU help me here.

[elevateme]

no, im sorry, perfect pitch cannot be learnt. simple as that. you either have it or you dont.
as for all the times you've quoted franzliszt2, i suggest you grow up lol he is trying to make a decent point and you are just picking holes in everything you find. it's really immature.  however it did make me laugh when you put;

"Because music is a by product of language. One learns about music as one learns about language because the same system is in operation."

hahaha that is a true statement but absolutely nothing to do with what you said. You said "did you attempt to learn your native language?" and you were trying to insult him. A simple 'sorry' would have been nice.

And finally, he is NOT NOT NOT contradicting himself when he says it is irritating and handy. I'm sure it's not too difficult to comprehend, even if english is not your first language. he says it can be irritating, he used germany's 442 as an example, and it can also be handy, for which he uses the beeps from his kitchen as an example. that is absolutely not at all contradicting himself, you can try and explain it but at the end of the day there is no point because you know that i'm right.

[prometheus]

Sheesh, this is like arguing with Pianistimo about religion.

I never insulted anytone. But I will now. Both of you are stupid because neither of you were able to understand what I said.

[Kassaa]

"The ability to attach labels to isolated auditory stimuli on the basis of pitch alone" = Perfect pitch. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_pitch) If you look at it from this way the argument about the Western tone system being hard wired into our genes is not right because it is for any frequency and not just those which form the Western tone system. So someone with perfect pitch would be able to use it also for, let's say, the Arabic tone system.

It seems a lot more likely now that you either have it from birth or you don't.

[prometheus]

Maybe you should read the complete wiki page...

[arbisley]

What I hate about arguments is when people don't understand 100% of what someone says because they perceive it differently. For intsnce, certain voice inflexions irritate my mum and she has a go at me for being rude, when I really didn't mean to.

I think that bit about language was just to show that language was something you never really tried to do consciously, but did learn by association with what your parets said, the tone of their voice etc. I agree with most of what both sides have to say, because I can "feel" in some cases what is happening, and get certain associations in my mind, but I cannot actually define it because I have never, subconsciously, tries to do it.

Maybe stop trying to inslut people just because you can't get them to understand you. It's what I find most difficult about socialising, is actually not getting pissed off because I have a slight accent in something, or my syntax in a sentence is weird, but at the end of the day, we are just working on the sum of our previous experiences and emotions.

And it's a bit like the thing about association; you learn because you associate something, a sound for instance, with something else, a letter say. You might be able to recognise the sound at the beginning by other means, the tingle of hair in your ear, and subconsciously register information. By the time you have learned the alphabet, you will know how to name what you hear with what you were already able to do beforehand. You could actually write a PHD on perception of sound, visualisation, association, learning, the origin of music and so on, but it's really no up to anyone to give lectures about these things, because everyone will necessarily be biased about things. Even me trying to speak objectively is formed onto how I think influenced by greek philosphy, that I am male, 16, it is a bit too hot for me in the room, and a thousand tiny things I feel and register and animate in my brain at the same time I am trying to type this on a computer.

I hope this makes sense, but the gist is, get on with people and don't get into a fling of emotion on the computer or with anyone just because you cannot relate to what they think. Just try to associate, but keep away if you really can't.

[franzliszt2]

You are the stupid one, considering me and elevate me have perfect pitch, we understand exactly what it is like to have it, you are just some random guy that likes to deny the fact that you don't have it.

And considering you called me ignorant, I think that you are the ignorant one calling us stupid. You need to stop looking at things so deeply, and giving stupid reasons for them.

I really wish I could just give you perfect pitch for a day, it would shut you up, you'd realise how different it is.

And why did you insult elevateme, he's posted ike 1 post on this topic, and you insulted me after my first. You seem to me like an immature loser, who wants perfect pitch, and is convinced that you can get it. Well good luck with that, I cannot be bothered with you anymore, your just an argumentitive a rse.

[arbisley]

I agree that it's inadmissible that you should insult someone just because you don't agree with them, or rather, they don't agree with you. Perfect pitch might be something you can learn, but you have to give in and say that it can't be learnt to the same degree for everyone, and that you should try giving in a little because strictness won't help anyone.

And please kindly stop the insults 

[leucippus]

no, im sorry, perfect pitch cannot be learnt. simple as that. you either have it or you dont.

This is totally not true.

People learn absolute pitches all the time.  They just don't call it having "perfect pitch".

Singers learn to sing songs all the time where they start out with the leading note.  They do it by ear.   Violinists learn to start pieces all the time from mid-fingerboard.  They do it by ear all the time.  I know because I'm learning to play the violin myself.

Anyone can learn to recognize and produce absolute pitches if they want to.  Many musicians do it all the time.  Most people just don't have a need to do it so they don't bother with it.  Also most of those who do learn it know that they learned it from experience and practice.

The bottom line is that we put numbers on the frequencies arbitrarily.    Forget about the notes!  Just think about 440 hz for example.  What is that?   That's 440 oscillations per second.  Well, what's a second?  A second is an ARBITRARY length of time chosen by man. 

In other words, even the frequencies have no absolute basis in nature.  There is nothing anymore special about 440 Hz than there is about 441 Hz, or 442 Hz and so on.  In fact, these whole number frequencies aren't any more special that fractional frequencies like say, 440.7384 Hz for example.  In other words, nature has no clue what a "second" is.  That's an arbitrary length of time chosen by mankind.

It's simply IMPOSSIBLE to be born with an innate ability to recognize specific tones like as if they have some absolute meaning or existence in nature.  They don't.  It's all just conventions of man.  There are no absolute tones in nature!

Logic clearly shows that the idea of being born with "perfect pitch" is necessarily hogwash.  Prefect pitches simply don't exist in nature.  It’s as simple as that. You can't be born having an innate ability to recognize something that doesn't even exist in nature!  These are all arbitrary conventions of man.

It is necessarily a learned ability.  And therefore anyone can learn it.

People who claim that you can only be born with perfect pitch and that it can't be learned are simply wrong on both counts.
 
That's not intended as an insult to their intelligence.  That's simply a fact for the obvious reasons stated above.

I'm sure there's been a topic on this before (or several), but......

Can perfect pitch be learned?  The thought intrigues me.  I saw an ad for this in a magazine...  https://www.perfectpitch.com/   They have a money-back guarantee.  Any thoughts?

In response to the original author of the thread:

Perfect pitch can indeed be learned.  That's the only way it can be acquired.  There is no other way to acquire it. 

People learn to recognize and produce absolute pitches all the time.   It's quite common.

[franzliszt2]

But learning to sing notes, or recognise them is not perfect pitch. It's strong relative

What do you mean about the numbers? Of course theres a difference, a huge difference. To me 441 is sharp, very sharp, and 442 is VERY VERY VERY sharp. 339 is flat. Thats becasue I'm so used to 440. The numbers are significant in every way, the frequency is the pitch. I no if summit is in 440, 441, 444, BECAUSE I have perfect pitch. That is perfect pitch. Obviously it is different from 440.44322, the human hear does not go that far. People have different aural abilities, hence you can not hear the difference between 440 and 441, and I can.

440 is the name given to a pitch, the oscilations will go on forever, and all human has done is cut a fragment of that out, lets say a second does not exist, and we have the......negrotation (made up word), and that is 4 secsonds long. An A will still sound like an A, yes??

You can't say that no perfect pitches exist in nature. Thats just stupid.

Have you ever met anyone with perfect pitch? I mean actually met them, and stood and asked them about it, tested them? You will soon notice that they are very different to you. Why not learn it?, you never will.  It's not possible, and please, you have to realise that recognising a pitch is NOT perfect pitch.

[leucippus]

You can't say that no perfect pitches exist in nature. Thats just stupid.

I'm not saying that no perfect pitches exist in nature.  On the contrary I'm saying that every possible frequency imaginable is just as perfect as any other frequency as far as nature is concerned.   So what's to recognize?   All pitches no matter what frequency are just as valid as any other.  In that sense there can be no *special* perfect pitches. 

The only thing that could possible make pitches special would the human ear drum itself.  But most normal people are born with a functioning ear drum.  So in that sense, everyone is capable of recognizing pitches.

Have you ever met anyone with perfect pitch? I mean actually met them, and stood and asked them about it, tested them? You will soon notice that they are very different to you. Why not learn it?, you never will.  It's not possible, and please, you have to realize that recognizing a pitch is NOT perfect pitch.

Just because a person has an ability to recognize or produce a lot of absolute pitches accurately doesn't imply in any way that they were born with that ability.

I totally disagree with your assertion that it's not possible to learn this ability. 

Where's your evidence?

As far as I'm concerned I've given all the evidence needed to prove that you can't possibly be born with this ability.  That's pretty conclusive as far as I'm concerned. 

You're barking up the wrong tree here.  I really don't care what you believe.  You're obviously wrong. 

[prometheus]

This person just thinks that she or he is some special musical talent and that all those that don't agree with her/him are people that envy this ability. This assuption is made without the person knowing if her/his victim has or does not have perfect pitch. The victim may even have better absolute pitch than this person herself/himself.

leucippus, absolute pitch is inside the brain. Not in the mechanism of the ear. One just needs to get the brain to listen the right way. Sound needs to be perceived and organised the correct way. Eventhough people here deny it, music is a byproduct of language. The system that evolved to process language processes our music as well.

There are languages that use 'pitch colour', like Vietnamese, meaning some form of absolute pitch is required to speak it correctly. If absolute pitch could not be learned only a few select 'musical genuisses' (sorry I am going to counter by using the staw man fallacy myself) would be able to learn to speak Vietnamese.


It is like phonetics of langauge. Once you are too old it becomes extremely hard to learn them. There are quite some languages that have different phonetics that are only perceived as different if you grow up with them.

If you have learned a difficult language you will know that at first some phonetics of a language sound indistinguishable. But over time you learn how to listen. In your native language you will not even be aware of the fact that phonetics are almost the same unless you think about it consciously.


Also, for the person that critisized me for pointing out the holes in other peoples arguments while 'they were right'. If their arguments are flawed how can one know if the point their are making is right? No. One needs to provide arguments. If they can't no one should buy what they are saying.


Of course there exists no 'perfect pitches' in music. What the hell is a 'perfect pitch' anyway?

[franzliszt2]

It's nothing to do with the eardrum, its the brain. Now please don't tell me that all brains are born the same, becasue then I will become seriously worried about your biology education.

My evidence is that I have never in my life met or heard of anyone devloping total perfect pitch. That to me is pretty conclusive. Where is your evidence?

I'm not saying you cannot develp[ the ability to recognise notes, or ing them, my point is that is NOT perfect pitch.

I find it so interesting that you are preaching about perfect pitch, and you don't even have it! It's fasinating.

Explain this......

Glenn Gould aged 3...he was in a room and his mum played a note on the piano, he came and pressed the exact note. He could do that aged 3. How do you explain that, he had no theory knowledge, he diodn't no what ity was called, but he somehow knew that it was the right note.

But I was born with the abilty!! And don't say I sub consiously learnt it, becasue I didn't. As soon as I was told what a pitch was called I new it from then on, with ease. I didn't try to remember it or anything. How can you learn that abilty? please tell me how yopu could go about learning it? You could sit and listen to the note for ages and ages, but what for? Thats just memorising the sound of that, if you change the timbre of the note, then you can't do it.

Ok, and heres one for you,. my friend went and memorised all the pitches, and he done this by relating each pitch to a piece of music. Ok, so I tripped him up, I hit a note, and started singing a piece which started on the note, and asked him whatit was. He didn't no what the piece was, therefore confused the note, and had no idea. So thatmethod does not work.

You're barking up the wrong tree here.  I really don't care what you believe.  You're obviously wrong

hahahaha, yeh I'm wrong, I have to be. I'm the one with perfect pitch, not you, so if anyone is wrong it's you, and your wild theory's. Do an experiment, get a random person, and teach them all the notes, and then see if they can dictate a full Bach chorale with np pitch reference. If they can, then you win.

hey, are you the guy who says that it doesn't help people? How did you come up with that theory? It seems a very odd thing to say, because of course it helps.

I really want to know why more people don't have Perfect pitch. I mean 1 in 10 000 have it, so if your theory was correct, then more people would sit and learn it. becasue mostmusicians want it.

[prometheus]

I wanted to type another post. But I see you are just repeating those arguments I already refuted.

[nortti]

Seems like a great deal of confusion in this thread is caused by people not agreeing on what absolute pitch is... Also, some seem to use a term "absolute perfect pitch". What is that? I thought absolute pitch and perfect pitch were synonymes.

There are two different things, which seem to get a bit mixed up here. One is pitch memory, and one is the ability to name the pitches.

Pitch memory is the ability to remember pitches.. Almost everybody seems to have this to some degree (you can say if a sound is high or low at least). Some, though, have a much more accurate memory. So accurate that they can tell apart individual notes, and this is where it becomes absolute pitch. By this definition there are many levels of AP -- some can differentiate between a half-step, some between 1 Hz etc. I'm not sure if this is a "static" property or if it can be refined later in childhood or even as adult, but this, I think, is what we should be debating about.

The other thing, naming pitches, is clearly a learned thing. This is what the "western scale -argument" defends and thus I think it's an invalid argument in this debate (which should be about refining pitch memory).

Just my thoughts..

[prometheus]

The difference between 440 and 441 Hz is 2.7 cents. A human ear can measuer up to a 6 cent difference. Note this has nothing to do with absolute pitch per se. Absolute pitch is hearing 'pitch colour'. The colour will be 6 cents off. The hearing of the colour is absolute pitch. Not the accuracy of hearing the pitch. If you notice a 'colour' that is off 10 cents this hasn't got to do with absolute pitch. A normal person will hear the same thing, except that he will not hear the 'colour'.

It's not that some people are 'confused' some are just 'full of ***'.

[nortti]

The difference between 440 and 441 Hz is 2.7 cents. A human ear can measuer up to a 6 cent difference.

Whatever. That was not my point at all.

So. What is this "colour" you're talking about? A pure tone, like a sine wave, has really no other varying properties than the pitch. The "colour" must be something that happens in the brain (because of pitch memory).

[prometheus]

I called it 'pitch colour'. It hasn't got anything to do with graphic colour. It is just the 'colour of sound' in terms of pitch.

[franzliszt2]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I HEAR A PITCH AS A PITCH AND NOTHING ELSE!

as soon as I hear an A  I no it's an A, not becasue of colour or anything, I just no instantly. Which is why I cannot explain to someone like you, becasue you will never understand that. You go ahead and hear colour, and stuff, your full of S hit, you really are.

[prometheus]

I said 'pitch colour', not 'colour'. I don't mean 'colour' in the conventional sense. I even added an extra bit for people who would otherwise be confused. Why did I use the world 'colour'? Because there is no other word for it.


'noooooo....  '

[franzliszt2]

Obviously I get that that, but still, I hear no colour to notes. And I mean colour in the musical sense, like I did in the last post, but you clearly missed the point. Each note has a sound, which is the pitch!!

Man you really are annoying

[franzliszt2]

And I really don't understand your hearing, I mean it's amazing, all this colour stuff, I hear a note as a note, and hear the overtones if I listen carefully.

[franzliszt2]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
IUNDERSTAND....

ABCDEFG are white
A#C#D#F#G# are black

 

Gotcha

[prometheus]

That's what I mean. Humans normally don't listen to pitch. They listen to the difference of sounds in language and the notes in music. Not to their actual pitch. The sound of musical pitch I called 'pitch colour' because each pitch has a special charactaristic that can be recognised. Isolating this part of the sound when hearing is how absolute pitch works.

[prometheus]

You really are unredeemable, except when you are still a child of course.

[franzliszt2]

Can I ask, do you have perfect pitch?

[nortti]

prometheus, you seem to be really bad at getting the point of a message.
I didn't say I meant "colour" in the usual, graphical sense. Maybe you try answer this: "How else do two pure sine-wave notes of different pitch differ from each other, except for the pitch (ie. frequency)?" If there's no other difference, then it must be that pitch colour == frequency, no?