Perfect Pitch

[prometheus]

Franzliszt2, by your definition, no. But neither do you. I just read many of your posts trying to find your age. You admit your absolute pitch isn't perfect and that you are still learning it.

So no, I don't really have it. I also never tried to learn it. But I did experience 'pitch colour'. It is just something my brain doesn't automatically pitch out of the sound the way it would in a person that does have excellent absolute pitch.

nortti, I am really good at it. THe problem is that that message wasn't aimed at you.


Yes, 'pitch colour' is frequency, obviously. The thing is that in the normal listening experience people are oblivious to frequency because it is irrelevant.

[franzliszt2]

MY PITCH IS BLOODY PERFECT, WHEN DID I SAY IT WASN'T? THE ONLY TIME I DON'T IS IF I HAVE 10 PINTS OF BEER AND IT GOES A SEMITONE FLAT!!!

I AM NOT LEARNING PERFECT PITCH, I HAVE IT, I HAVE ALWAYS HAD IT

i'M 18 YEARS OLD

[prometheus]

I have perfect pitch, and had s imilar mystery to you. I could recognise everynote, acurattly, all the time, but stick a key signature, and I'm lost. I just give it time, listened to music with an analitical ear. It's still not accurate all the time, but my teacher says it will be with more time.

Perfect pitch is the ability to name a pitch without any referecne to anoth. I have undeveloped relative, so i am bad at intervals. well wa bad, i developed loads. Perfect oitch comes in varying degree's. Some people, usually orchestral players, can tell you exactly how far falt or sharp you are, wherea I cannot, because I do not need to know that, but I can get things preety much perfectly in tune if I try.

Just keep listening and develop 

Your problem is that you for some reason decide to call what all normal people would call 'learning' something else in the case of absolute pitch. I have been trying to find out how long it would take you to realise why there is a disagreement. But here, I gave up.

[nortti]

I called it 'pitch colour'. It hasn't got anything to do with graphic colour. It is just the 'colour of sound' in terms of pitch.

That wasn't aimed at me? To me it looks very much like it was.
Anyway, we agree that pitch colour == frequency. So, I rather talk about frequency, as it's easier to understand. So, AP is the ability to accurately (within, say, a 1/4 step) remember and recall these frequencies, without a reference. And the question is, can this be trained, and to what degree, and in which phases of ones life?

[prometheus]

Well, if you meant only that I don't understand what got you confused. You may prefer 'frequency' but we don't use that for colour either while colour is the frequency of a ray of photons.

Like I said before, when it comes to musical sound humans generally don't hear, or don't listen to, the frequency. So it is not the memorisation of frequency but learning to listen to that specific part of the sound. And then remembering it as well.

The question whenether this can be learned or trained are two seperate ones. The critical age seems to be around 2 to 4 years, just like with phonetics. But that doesn't mean one cannot progress at all beyond the age of four, because this also isn't the case with phonetics. If you learn a language at a later age you can learn new sounds but you will never get them perfect. We can assume the same is true with absolute pitch though research here is lacking.

Also, almost all skills a human can posses are both 'Nature and nurture'. Sicnce the 'cognitive revolution' in psychology that took place in the 1950's most people feel the Nature vs nurture debate is dead.

[nortti]

You may prefer 'frequency' but we don't use that for colour either while colour is the frequency of a ray of photons.

Well, is the frequency of your clock ticking maybe "the colour of time" or something?
Color here is a bad term because a) it's already the name of the frequency of light, and b) it's also used for the timbre of sound.

Like I said before, when it comes to musical sound humans generally don't hear, or don't listen to, the frequency. So it is not the memorisation of frequency but learning to listen to that specific part of the sound. And then remembering it as well.

I'm not too sure about that. Play a note with different instruments and you can tell that they are the same note. Thus, you are listening to the pitch of the sounds. Without AP.

-- If you learn a language at a later age you can learn new sounds but you will never get them perfect. We can assume the same is true with absolute pitch though research here is lacking.

Why would phonetics and AP have anything to do with each other? Learning the sound of new vowels and consonants is a relative pitch thing. Also, most tonal languages depend on the melody rather than a specific pitch. And I'd think that even in those which assign a fixed pitch to syllables (like Yoruba), the pitches depend on the individual speakers and the others have to figure out the "tonal center" of the person they're talking to.

[franzliszt2]

I give up with you.

Don't you realsie that the "colour" of an F on the piano is different to the "colour" of an F on say the tuba.

Perfect pitch has nothing to do with language learning. I no people who can speak 5 languages, and don't have any sense of pitch, and I have perfect pitch, and struggle a great deal with languages, even though I have tried my hardest.


With comment to my other comment you posted. I was talking about my past. I said that I couldn't name keys accuratly all the time....why? Becasue my theoretical knowledge was not as fast as my ear. So I had to develop the abilty to link the sound to the key. Obviously now I can, easily, but then I couldn't. I developed it...now please isolate that word DEVELOP!! I was born with the ability to DEVELOP! Not learn, be taught. I could always get notes, that was easy, but key naming obviosly requires some tjeory knowledge

[prometheus]

That is called timbre.


I never said that it is the same as learning a langauge. I said the process is similar. There seems to be a critical age where one can learn, or develop as you call it, it perfectly.

The ability to learn, or develop, langauge is also inborn. Just as about everything else a human can learn. You cannot learn anything if there isn't a genetic basis.

[franzliszt2]

the process is not similar at all. Some things are inborn. Like total recall, you cannot develop that, thats just inborn abilty....Talent

[prometheus]

Eidetic memory doesn't exist.


There are organisations that do memorising competitions. These people are all normal people that practice and thus are good at memorising.


There are some people with 'unbalanced' brains where too much brain power is reserved for things like calculation or memory. These are not 'normal' people. I am talking about things like autism, Aspergers, etc.

[franzliszt2]

SHUT UP MAN

RACHMANINOFF MEMORISED A SYMPHONY AFTER ONE HEARING!!!

was he autistic? ummmm NO! I've read a lot of acounts, and he sounds pretty normal to me

[elevateme]

what do you mean by a "genetic basis"?

[pianowolfi]

perfect pitch is inborn. period.

[elevateme]

and im really sorry but if we're still talking about perfect pitch then the right side of the brain deals with music and the left deals with languages. they are learned totally differently and sorry but that's a fact

i dont think perfect pitch can be learned. i know people can hear the "colour" difference between 440 and 441, but thats not perfect pitch, thats relative pitch. Perfect pitch is when for example if someone plays a note on the piano you can name it without hesitating or thinking at all.

People can teach themselves to remember notes. But that's not perfect pitch. thats training yourself to remember a note that doesnt come naturally. therefore when you hear a note on the piano, you may be able to name it after a while, but you will have to think about it, and that isnt perfect pitch.

[thalbergmad]

Sheesh, this is like arguing with Pianistimo about religion.

I never insulted anytone. But I will now. Both of you are stupid because neither of you were able to understand what I said.

Well, you can put me in the stupid bracket as well, because i probably understand about 1% of your posts.

Labelling other members stupid is bad play.

Not everyone is a walking Encyclopedia.

Thal

[prometheus]

Do you believe stories like that? There are so many anekdotes like this about composers...


Anyway, Rachmaninoff was a trained pianist and composer. This means he developed his memory. He learned how to memorise music. Surely he was probably very good at memorising. But one cannot memorise everything. The brain doesn't work that way. It is psychologically impossible. Therefore eidetic memory doesn't exist.


Also, you cannot diagnose someone based on records.


Genetic basis is fairly simple from one perspective. It is that what is in the genes. But what does it mean? That is more complex. For example, for walking the genetic basis includes legs, of course. But also there needs to be a genetic basis for the motoric skills to develop. If you are going to program a robot that needs to be able to walk then this is very complex. Balance needs to be checked and calculated many times a second. Movements need to be coordinated with great precision.

Everything the brain can do it can do because it is 'preprogrammed' to learn to do. This means the human brain is not a 'clean slate' or an 'empty page'. But when it comes to humans there is very little they can do instinctively, without any experience or learning at all.

As for franzliszt2, look up the word 'to learn' in a dictionary.

[elevateme]

actually, "to learn" is a verb infinitive.
 "learn" is a word, under which in the dictionary you will find its meaning

[prometheus]

and im really sorry but if we're still talking about perfect pitch then the right side of the brain deals with music and the left deals with languages. they are learnt totally differently and sorry but that's a fact

This is a pseudo-science myth. One uses both sides of the brain for everything. The brain prosesses music in four parts; language, memory, tonality and rhythm. Tonality is more located in the right auditory cortex while language is more active in the left side. Musical ability, linguistical ability and word memory are located in the left side. So it seems that tonality is conneted with emotion and melody with language. Of course rhythm is handled by the functions that deal with rhythm/time, the control of the heart beat and the biological clock.

But it is all very complex and not well understood.

[letters]

on that note (no pun intended), you can take a perfect pitch test here:

https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/tunetest/dtt.asp

Hearing Test Results

You correctly identified 26 tunes (out of 26) on the Distorted Tunes Test. Congratulations! You have a fine sense of pitch.

yay. i think perfect pitch is inborn because its all about intuition. i would say that i have it but im not sure..... sometimes i get it wrong. but for example my frend played an A major chord i just knew it was A major because i instantly recalled that chopin polonaise in A major. is that perfect pitch?

[nortti]

There are some people with 'unbalanced' brains where too much brain power is reserved for things like calculation or memory. These are not 'normal' people. I am talking about things like autism, Aspergers, etc.

There's no such thing as a 'normal' person. Why couldn't AP be something caused by 'unbalanced' brains?

But it is all very complex and not well understood.

How the brains work is indeed not well understood. Yet you seem to understand it very well...

[franzliszt2]

Oh yeh, so I can train myself to memorise a full symphony in one hearing.. yeh I think I'll do that.

I know lots of amaziong composers, who are pianists, and they cannot do that at all.

It is true, you are just a guy who doesn't want to believe that some people are special.

You talk crap, you try to be clever, but you just look stupid, you insult people, you are ignorant about peoples talent. So if I train myself, I'll be the next Mozart?

Why can some people roll their tongues, and some people can't? It's called an inborn abilty. Why shoud I look up "to learn"? I'm fully aware of that word. You seem to be impyling that everyone is born the same. So therefore if I have a baby, I can go...umm, I think he'll be an astronaut, lets teach him the tricks of the trade, or maybe..he'll be a violinist, yeh if I teach him he'll do it.

NOOO

People are all born differently, born with different brains, with different abilty. Why can I play piano? I know people who have played for longer than me, had more lessosn than me, yet they are 10 times worse than me. Why do some people find maths easier than others.

You compare the brain to a robot, when really we are nothing like it.

And why don't you believe the stories about great people? I think just by hearing the piano concerto's alone prove he was a genius. And Richter, he memorised Prokofiev 7 in 4 days, that is amazing. And john Odgon, memorised Rach 2nd sonata on a plane, and could play it when he got off.

[shoenberg3]

The distribution of the IQ scores for this convo is terribly left-skewed.

Elevateme and franzliszt2, the indomitable duo, ever childish and dim-witted.


btw, I know I didn't have perfect pitch when I was younger. When I practiced more, the pitch scale/frequency became more familiar and familar until now I can claim that I have a perfect perfect pitch.

[leucippus]

The distribution of the IQ scores for this convo is terribly left-skewed.

Elevateme and franzliszt2, the indomitable duo, ever childish and dim-witted.


btw, I know I didn't have perfect pitch when I was younger. When I practiced more, the pitch scale/frequency became more familiar and familar until now I can claim that I have a perfect perfect pitch.

There you go.  It's settled.  We now have an example of someone who has learned it.

Can't argue with that.  The proof is in the pudding.   Those who claimed it can't be learned are obviously wrong and have no clue what they are talking about.

[shoenberg3]

To clarify "practicing," I don't mean I practiced for perfect pitch; that was never the case. Just normal practice but I guess a closer attention to tone maybe. Whatever  it was, it came naturally but it wasn't inherent.

[prometheus]

Oh yeh, so I can train myself to memorise a full symphony in one hearing.. yeh I think I'll do that.

I said you can improve it. Why not try it?

So if I train myself, I'll be the next Mozart?

Mozart was trained...

Why can some people roll their tongues, and some people can't? It's called an inborn abilty. Why shoud I look up "to learn"? I'm fully aware of that word. You seem to be impyling that everyone is born the same.

No, I never said everyone has the same potentional. I said mos things are learned but have a genetic basis.

If you were cloned and your clone would not get to hear any music before the age of 21 then your clone will never have the level of perfect pitch you have.

Why can I play piano?

Because you learned to play. No one is born able to play the piano.

Why do some people find maths easier than others.

No one is born knowing math.

You compare the brain to a robot, when really we are nothing like it.

How would you know? Have you read anything on human cognition?

And why don't you believe the stories about great people? I think just by hearing the piano concerto's alone prove he was a genius. And Richter, he memorised Prokofiev 7 in 4 days, that is amazing. And john Odgon, memorised Rach 2nd sonata on a plane, and could play it when he got off.

These anekdotes are almost always cooked up.

[leucippus]

To clarify "practicing," I don't mean I practiced for perfect pitch; that was never the case. Just normal practice but I guess a closer attention to tone maybe. Whatever  it was, it came naturally but it wasn't inherent.

I feel much the same way.  I'm learning to play the violin which has no frets of course.  So I have to start a lot of pieces off playing a note mid-fingerboard.  I'm getting pretty darn good at being able to instantly tell whether or not I am on the correct pitch.  This is just from practice.  It's not really my intent to practice "perfect pitch" it's just a side-affect of learning to play the violin.

I think a lot of people do this all the time.  They just don't run around claiming to have perfect pitch after they've learned to do this.  Any human who has good hearing should be able to discern all of the pitches.   That's nothing special.   Every human is born with this ability just like everyone is born being able to see all the colors.  What's the difference?  There is no difference as far as I'm concerned.  For one we use our eyes, for the other we use our ears.  

Anyone can learn to recognize absolute pitches if they want to.  It's a natural ability that all humans are capable of.  It's really no different than being able to learn to name colors.  It's just a matter of how picky you want to get about the actual hue of the color.  Same with pitches.

Who's to say what's a "Perfect blue"?  I'm sure that science has a definite frequency for like that can be called "blue".  But most people have no clue what it is.  Same goes with the notes.  We have standards for each pitch.  Once a person has learned what those standards are they should be able to learn to identify or produce them if they want to.

I know that I'm learning to do this on the violin.  There are no frets on the violin.  I have to do this with every piece I play! If I don't create the perfect pitches it isn't going to sound good.

All violinist ultimately learn how to produce perfect pitches.  They just don't think of it as learning "perfect pitch".  But ultimately that's what it is.

[shoenberg3]

I feel much the same way.  I'm learning to play the violin which has no frets of course.  So I have to start a lot of pieces off playing a note mid-fingerboard.  I'm getting pretty darn good at being able to instantly tell whether or not I am on the correct pitch.  This is just from practice.  It's not really my intent to practice "perfect pitch" it's just a side-affect of learning to play the violin.

I think a lot of people do this all the time.  They just don't run around claiming to have perfect pitch after they've learned to do this.  Any human who has good hearing should be able to discern all of the pitches.   That's nothing special.   Every human is born with this ability just like everyone is born being able to see all the colors.  What's the difference?  There is no difference as far as I'm concerned.  For one we use our eyes, for the other we use our ears.  

Anyone can learn to recognize absolute pitches if they want to.  It's a natural ability that all humans are capable of.  It's really no different than being able to learn to name colors.  It's just a matter of how picky you want to get about the actual hue of the color.  Same with pitches.

Who's to say what's a "Perfect blue"?  I'm sure that science has a definite frequency for like that can be called "blue".  But most people have no clue what it is.  Same goes with the notes.  We have standards for each pitch.  Once a person has learned what those standards are they should be able to learn to identify or produce them if they want to.

I know that I'm learning to do this on the violin.  There are no frets on the violin.  I have to do this with every piece I play! If I don't create the perfect pitches it isn't going to sound good.

All violinist ultimately learn how to produce perfect pitches.  They just don't think of it as learning "perfect pitch".  But ultimately that's what it is.

Agreed on every terms.

[andyd]

I have a limited learned pitch recognition, for the piano only.  Within two octaves either side of middle C, play a note and I can name it.  Any further away from middle C and I effectively start guessing.  This has to be a learned familiarity with the instrument.

I cannot recognise notes played on other instruments.


Franzlist2,  I'm interested to know whether you can name the 'note' of a car horn when sounded, or glass smashing, or the sound of a snooker ball being hit.  I assume from what you have said you can.  It's quite a rare ability, at least, I've never met anyone who could.

Regards

Andy

[franzliszt2]

Yeh I can recognise everything, car horns, engine noise, glasses, sometimes when people shout at me, like teachers at school, I used to no what pitch they were shouting at.

But your theories of the violin is not perfect pitch at all. You no that the F should lie just into the E string, so you can search for it, but bearing in mind you have 4 solid references, the G, D,A and E. So it is all relative. I could pick up a violin and play any random part of it and name the pitch, I can do it on any instrument, or anything.

But shoenberg....You surely were born with that abilty? You then became aware of it, and used it? So you did not think one day...I'll learn perfect pitch. You already had a sense of it.

Aspects of perfect pitch cannot be leant, they are inborn. Shoenberg didn't learn it though in the sense you are on about. He had it, and the more he practiced piano the better it developed.

You also claim that your theory is correct based on the evidence of 1 person. Yet there are more people say it can't be learnt.

You don't even have perfect pitch, you have no idea what it actually is, you seem biiter against people born with abilty. You say that Mozart was taught. Obviosuly, but he clearly had talent. Why do you compare everything to science, you think so mechanically, you base your theories around scientific theories that are debatable by the best scientists in the world. Mozarts abilities were inborn, as were Beethoevns,m Bachs, etc....
You just can't face the fact that people have talent, you don't realise that science has annomalies, which have to be examed, and often have no explanations. 1 in 10 000 people have perfect pitch according to most tests, so clearly it is a strange thing, it is unexplained.

I was taught maths in the same class as my friend, he's npow at oxford doing it, why am I not? Because he found it easier.

Elevateme and franzliszt2, the indomitable duo, ever childish and dim-witted.

right... get a life

[andyd]

https://www.perfectpitchpeople.com/

There are anecdotes for some - see Arrau, Heifetz, Segovia, Tatum...

Andy

[leucippus]

Yeh I can recognise everything, car horns, engine noise, glasses, sometimes when people shout at me, like teachers at school, I used to no what pitch they were shouting at.

How could you possibly know if you got these right?  Did you actually then verify these pitches.  I highly doubt it.   Car horns are almost always two horns of different pitches anyway.  Engine noise would certainly be a multitude of tones and not a single clean absolute pitch, as would be the breaking of glass.

Personally, I think much of what you believe you can do is in your own imagination.  Have you ever actually been rigorously scientifically tested for this ability by an unbiased tester?  Probably not.  If you had been, and you can really do all the things you claim, you'd be in the news. You'd be popular and you woudln't be trying to convince people on the Internet of your abilities.

In short, I'll believe this when it's been officially verified.

Moreover, even if you do have the extreme abilities that you claim to have they would go far beyond what most people mean when they say they have "perfect pitch". 

So you are saying that you can recoginze and name the pitch of any possible noise you hear?  Go to a laboratory and be tested for it.  If what you claim is true, you'll be in the world news the next day and by the end of the week your name will be known in every household in the civilized world.  You will no longer need to try to convince people on the Interent of your extrodinary abilities. You'll be famous!  You'd probably be offered a lot of career opportunities too.

 

[pianistimo]

leucippus, you blew his cover.  women, however are less likely to blow covers unless they are pilots.  i heard on the radio this morning (daughter's radio station) that this one lady who was inrecognizable to her pilot friends when she got dressed up - would regularly find them telling her that they were 'top gun' type pilots or navy seals.  then, other ladies started calling up and telling about boyfriends who lied about ages (claiming to be much younger so they could date the 16 year old) and what they did for a living.  makes me wonder about the five pianos, frankly.  do you REALLY have five pianos?  if you are a midgit - i'd be really surprised, though.

[leucippus]

do you REALLY have five pianos? 

Yes I REALLY have five pianos.  All accoustical.  I actually have an electronic keyboard too, so I guess I have six if you count that. 

These are all antiques, I'm into piano restoration as a hobby.  Some of these are in the middle of restoration so they aren't all currently playable.  One of them is a player piano.  They range from a spinet (one of them) to full-sized uprights.  One of them is a Victorian era piano (tunes to A=415 Hz).  It is actually called an "Upright Grand".  This is actually cast into the piano with the mfg's name.  It is 58" tall.  Unfortunately this one is in mid-restoration.  I can't wait to play it!  I can already tell that it's going to have very deep rich tonal qualities.

[nortti]

How could you possibly know if you got these right?  Did you actually then verify these pitches.  I highly doubt it.

Have you checked every time you saw something blue that it really was blue? Have you ever checked if you really can name colors without reference? You have clear color references all the time (the sky, grass, your skin color, your clothes, the ground etc etc etc). Try using some glasses that make everything grayscale for some time and then try to name the first color you're shown.

Car horns are almost always two horns of different pitches anyway.  Engine noise would certainly be a multitude of tones and not a single clean absolute pitch, as would be the breaking of glass.

But usually there's one pitch that's the most audible. I have a friend who has done similar things (I verified and he got them correct).

So you are saying that you can recoginze and name the pitch of any possible noise you hear?  Go to a laboratory and be tested for it.  If what you claim is true, you'll be in the world news the next day and by the end of the week your name will be known in every household in the civilized world.  You will no longer need to try to convince people on the Interent of your extrodinary abilities. You'll be famous!  You'd probably be offered a lot of career opportunities too.

You really believe people are that interested in something like this?

[franzliszt2]

How am I sure?, becasue I am, and I don't doubt it all..



You must be a musical retard if you cannot see that a horn has a pitch, and that the engine does rumble away, use your ears man. Why am I wasting my time with people like you. I have friends with perfect pitch....elevateme being one of them, and how come we always come up with the same notes? Also, if I'm in the house, and I hear a horn toot, I can go to the piano, and show other people I am correct, but I seriously don't need to prove that to people like you.

How would I be famous? This sudden amazment you seem to show shows you didn't no what perfect pitch was, otherwise you wouldn't be suprised at that, as that is a classic sign of someone with perfect pitch. Spend a day with someone with it, you'll soon find out that it's a unique abilty

I have been musically tested...ie..I was asked to name notes, sing notes. Name chords, name the key of multiple pieces of music, and also to listen to orchestral stuff, and name all the modulations, chords etc.. I was also played beeps on a tuner at different frequencies...441, 440 etc....

And I passed it quite easily. Therefore it is safe to say I do have perfect pitch. But you metion engines going at multiple notes...that is true, but I can identify them all, and there is usally one pitch that is the significant one. Smashing glass usually has a strong pitch from what I can remember, but I don't really smash glasses that often, but if you bash them together, you get a strong note.Have you never played musical dishes? Where you tune the kitchen dishes to notes using differemnt amounts of water and play tunes.

In the above post, you should gather all the information about what perfect pitch actually is. Most people see that as perfect pitch, but you and that other guy don't seem to grasp it.

[prometheus]

But many pitches in nature are not equal to the tones of western music. How does this work? Since you claim you can hear the difference between 440 and 441. Shouldn't you be able to say exactly how close a note is to E or F instead of hearing them as either E or F?

[pianistimo]

is it true that if one has musical parents that keep the piano at home always in perfect tune - there is no other choice but for the child to know pitch much better than say a parent who lets the piano go out of tune a complete whole step by the end of the year?  would you say two tunings should do it for most pianos in one year with children playing 1 or 2 hours per day?   my kawaii stays in pretty good tune - despite moving it, etc.  but i feel awful that i don't always tune it regularly.  now, acoustic pianos are always in tune, right.  so one could develop a more perfect pitch with acoustic if the regular piano is out a quarter? 

my favorite piano tuning is slightly flat in the very bass, going to moderate right-on tuning in the bass, moving to slightly sharp in the treble to very sharp in the higher treble.  is this mean tuning?  how mean should one get with perfect pitch?

[nortti]

But many pitches in nature are not equal to the tones of western music. How does this work?

How about 'a slightly flat F'. Or even, like, 3/16 tones flat? I don't think many have learned to name pitches that accurately, though, because it's pretty much useless.

[prometheus]

Well, yes. He claims he can hear 2.7 cents. So this means he should be able to recognise how many franctions of 1/37 each note is above or below the pitch in western music.


(What he means is that he can hear the diffrence between 440 and 446 through relative pitch. Not that his perfect pitch is accurate to 1/37 of a note.)

[elevateme]

if by that you mean after hearing two sounds he can tell you which one is 440 & which is 441, then yes, he can, and so can I. i'm sure everyone with perfect pitch can aswell.

it is because you don't have it that you find this so difficult to believe. i'm certain that even shoenberg will tell you that there is a massive difference in tone between 440 & 441, maybe not to your ears but to ours there is.

This is probably something you will never understand, but please try. and if you still can't understand it, then for god's sake let it go. just accept that some people can do things that you can't and probably will never be able to do. i'm sure you can do things we can't. we are all different.

[franzliszt2]

no I don't hear it relativly, I can tell you if it's in tune without any reference to anything, i just no if it's out.

I havn't analysed the science side of it.

I'll tell you what, you keep learning science and waffling on, but I'm the one with perfect pitch, and I'd rather have PP than no all the stuff in the world about sound. I have it, I don't care whether you believe in perfect pitch, you have clearly not met many musicians, becasue if you had, you would have met someone with PP. Perfect pitch is much more usefull than all your "knowlegde".

How would you feel if some guy learnt all there was to no about piano's, and then started telling you how to play? And saying that Alkan was impossible becasue it just cannot be done, the notes don't move that fast and told you loads of scientific proof. You wouldn't be happy would you?

By the sounds of things, you are denying the existance of perfect pitch. Which means you are officially silly, as it clearly does exist.

[elevateme]

im surprised prometheus doesnt understand, he seems to know a lot about this sort of stuff

[franzliszt2]

No he doesn't. I think it's clear by his posts he knows nothing about Perfect pitch

[prometheus]

But a tone with 441 has 0.02% more vibrations per second compared with 441. The difference is 2.7 cents. It is very little. Normal humans can recognise a difference of 6 cents through relative pitch. A# is 100 cent above A.

I asked a question. Do you know exactly where a note fits inbetween A and A#? With an accuracy of 2.7 cents?


Ok, then tell me if this is 440, 441, 442 or 439 Hz: Click.


Also, you must have me confused with Leucippus.


I could just as well argue that you two don't understand what absolute pitch is and therefore you must not have it... Whatever you claim you have, you have no idea what it is.
Stupid argument, yes.

[leucippus]

This sudden amazment you seem to show shows you didn't no what perfect pitch was, otherwise you wouldn't be suprised at that, as that is a classic sign of someone with perfect pitch.

I never said I was amazed.  I said I "would be" amazed if you passed the test 100% the way you claim.

I think you grossly underestimate the test I am talking about.  I'm pretty convinced that if you took the test they would tell you that you did great, but nothing exception that other people can't do.   Some of which were trained to recognize pitches.

They aren't going to be testing you against Joe Smoe on the street who has no clue how to name pitches.  

Moreover, you haven't shown a single shred of compelling evidence of why this can't be a learned skill which was the original question of the thread.  

I still hold that it is indeed learnable, and that you indeed had to have learned it. (logic dictates this)

Also the idea that people who have "perfect pitch" can actually hear things that "normal" people can't implies that they have extra-sensitive ear drums.   If you have extra-sensitive ear drums that would show up in a hearing test account for your increased ability to differentiate pitches.  That would answer why you can hear things other people can't hear.  That might also explain why you focused in on pitches and learned to categorize them while you grew up.  A learned skill still, but with the added advantage of having extra-ordinary hearing.

In short, anyone should be able to learn to recognize whatever pitches their eardrum can perceive.

No one has offered any reason why this can't be the case.

So the original question of the thread seems to have gotten lost.

[prometheus]

Moreover, you haven't shown a single shred of compelling evidence of why this can't be a learned skill which was the original question of the thread. 

He thinks it is 'developed' instead of 'learned'.

Also the idea that people who have "perfect pitch" can actually hear things that "normal" people can't implies that they have extra-sensitive ear drums.

It does not. That what we hear and that what we see is created by our brain. The mechanism of the ear is not the bottleneck, unless the person is aged.

A person with absolute pitch does does not hear any different but the person does interpret the sounds supplied by the ear to the brain in a different way. The brain is trained to listen to a specific part of the tone, the specific nature of the vibration.


But yes, franzliszt2 also claims to have extra sensitive ears because he can hear the difference between 440 and 441, meaning this person hears twice as accurate as normal people plus at the same time having 'perfect' absolute pitch (well, in may he said something else, but whatever).

[franzliszt2]

What? I don't know the blooody theory behind it, it doesn't intrest me, I like music, not cents and stuff. And the click doesn't actually do anything, it just says page cannot be displayed. Plus I'm in a public PC room, so no sound is on pc. But I could tell you if I could hear it. Anyway, who are you?Why should I have to prove anything to you, you are some random loser. Why shoud I waste my time even talking to you? I tried to post a useful post about perfect pitch since I have it, but you throw it back in my face. Your pathetic, you really are. You ask me a question, and when I answer you tell me I'm wrong! HOW DO YOU NO I'M WRONG? It's my hearing, not yours. I pity you I really do. You don;t listen to anyone unless they agree with you.

Testing me against joe who?? I'm at a music conservatoire, so they tend to be a lot of good people around to test me with, and there is only a small amount of us have perfect pitch.

AND FOR THE RECORD...IT'S NOT RECOGNISING PITCHES!!!!!! THATS ONLY A PART OF IT! AND IT'S NOT THE EARDRUM, ITS THE BRAIN. YOU NO, THAT THING THAT IS INBETWEEN THE EAR.

[franzliszt2]

so the test I did, can you tell the key of a piece of music and name all the chords and modulations with not pitch reference?

[shoenberg3]

Franzliszt, I developed it, but that's different from being born with it. I had the ability to develop it and that's it. There is no significant difference between "learning" and "developing." Some people may find developing/learning easier; some may not.

Anyway, now I too am able to recognize the pitch of horns/school bells. I verified them by playing on the piano. Again I emphasize I know i coudln't have done that a few years ago.

[prometheus]

What? I don't know the blooody theory behind it, it doesn't intrest me, I like music, not cents and stuff. And the click doesn't actually do anything, it just says page cannot be displayed. Plus I'm in a public PC room, so no sound is on pc.

Good excuse. The link does work.

But I could tell you if I could hear it. Anyway, who are you?Why should I have to prove anything to you...

Well, of course your response is irrelevant. But then you realise how you are talking air. You have no idea what 440 Hz means or what 2,7 cents means. But you claim you can hear the difference...

You are some random loser.

Well, I would challenge you for a game of chess and we will find out who is the 'loser', if that is what you meant, but with all those chess engines out there, I don't trust you. So keep your insults with you.

Why shoud I waste my time even talking to you?

You are asking me? Who is the wise guy here? Why did you waste time talking to me anyway?

I tried to post a useful post about perfect pitch since I have it,

You failed. You just started bragging. Next time you see someone ask a question about music please shut up and leave it to me or soemone else who actually knows something instead of just having an inflated ego because of some 'magical ability'.

Your pathetic, you really are.

I will remember it.

You ask me a question, and when I answer you tell me I'm wrong! HOW DO YOU NO I'M WRONG?

Maybe you should read more carefully. You mean that I argued against your absurd claims. What's wrong with that?

It's my hearing, not yours. I pity you I really do. You don;t listen to anyone unless they agree with you.

I don't listen to a 18 year old with no education, an attitude and a blown up ego because I can't learn anything from those kinds of people.