grosse fuge op. 130 or 133

[pianistimo]

as i understand it (and someone please correct me) the op. 130 is the string quartet of which the grosse fugue is included.  the op. 133 would then be the two piano, four hand arrangement that beethoven later made? 

i would really like to see the two piano - four hand arrangement.  can anyone find out from copies of copies?  or must i wait until 2009   20009!  for julliard to open the score up.  where can one see the score?  has it been published?  i'm so anxious.  i've been biting my fingernails for approximately 4 months.  it is to the point that i am not sleeping well.  please help!

[dnephi]

No.  It was originally meant to be the finale to the Op. 130 but Beethoven changed his mind.

Doesn't Grosse Fugue sound plain ugly? :$

[thalbergmad]

Two pianos

[pianistimo]

where did you find this?  CD sheet music had it?  amazing.  but, this is not beethoven's arrangement.  correct?  so, i must keep searching - although i will study this one in the meantime.  i love you i love you i love you.

do you think the two arrangements are quite similar?

so, rontgen was beethoven's friend?  and, then beethoven said - 'no, i can do it better!'  now i REALLY want to see beethoven's arrangement to see what he did differently.  now, as i understand it - schoenberg and stravinsky both saw the original score.  how it ever ended up in a seminary in pa, i'll never know.  then, to southeby's.  then, sold for bukcoo bucks.  but, others must have made copies.  maybe MAYBE i'll go to that seminary and just hang out.  maybe they have a copy of it hanging somewhere?  or, in the library?  or, i could mail $50. to julliard and pleasantly ask if i could get a copy?

one wish always leads to another.  now, i want to get carl cranmer to play one or the other part WITH me, of course.  i want this to be part of my grad recital - whenever i get unwithdrawn.  can a person become unwithdrawn - when they withdrew from uni - or do you have to start from square one again.  if so, that's ok.  i want three more semesters of piano lessons anyways - but i don't want to have to take those other classes again (excepting 'the piano concerto'). 

[dnephi]

from wikipedia: Opus 127: String Quartet No. 12 in E flat major (1825)
Opus 130: String Quartet No. 13 in B flat major (1825)
Opus 131: String Quartet No. 14 in C sharp minor (1826)
Opus 132: String Quartet No. 15 in A minor (1825)
Opus 133: Große Fuge in B flat major for string quartet (1826), originally the finale to op. 130
Opus 134: Piano arrangement (4 hands) of Große Fuge (1826)
Opus 135: String Quartet No. 16 in F major (1826)

[pianistimo]

ah.  he separated it.  ok.  thanks!

ps why did you call it grobe fuge?  it's sounding worse and worse.  and yet, i must detangle it all.

i am now looking for Op. 134.  thank you so much!

[thalbergmad]

i love you i love you i love you.
  

Does this mean i can be horrible to you for a few days?

Thal

[pianistimo]

do whatever you like.  eat snozeberries in front of me.   let them dangle out your nose.  you are one VIP. 

[pianistimo]

ok.  i forgot.  anton halm was the guy beethoven first let arrange this piece.  twould be interesting to see that version, too.

i've printed out this entire version of the grosse fuge.   i am in a vast antarctica of musical wasteland and decided to spend an hour sidetracked on dick's blog (a musicologist who studied the possibilities of the 'immortal beloved' https://witf.blogspot.com/2005/04/beethoven-his-women.html

ok.  so back on track.  i would like now to somehow obtain anton halm's version.  where do i go for that?  and, of course, also beethoven's.  now it is my understanding that the op. 134 WAS published (several times?) but then, the score was lost.  did the published copies go missing - or are they available somewhere?

love to heather carbo (librarian at austen k. deblois library at palmer theological seminary) for recognizing beethoven's own hand.  https://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/10/13/201333.php   and who found out many things

also, two more sites:

https://lafolia.com/archive/walt/walt200412ratatouille7.html

www.culturekiosque.com/klassik/news/beethoven_manuscript_grosse_fugue.html

the last link is quite extensive and interesting!

[thalbergmad]

I think you have got more chance than me of getting a copy my little princess, as it was re-discovered on your doorstep almost.

No doubt copies have been made, but i don't fancy your chances.

Thal

[pianistimo]

so, it's pretty much a known fact that there isn't any published version of it available to the average pianist?  or, does somebody have it.  and WHO might i ask would it be.  i suppose i could try several libraries - as it seems that sometimes they don't recognize what's in it for several decades.  perhaps PERHAPS i shall go and do the dust mite thing.

i should have been digging up dirt years ago.  i am inclined to look up that librarian, too.  i can't imagine she didn't make a copy for herself. 

why is julliard so possessive of it?  i am thinking of sending the $50. if i don't find it anywhere else.  but, thal - you are AMAZING in your contributions.  i really think i can get a 'feel' for the piece first - this way.  and then, start adding pieces to the puzzle.  who knows.

[pianistimo]

i have just found out that stokowski arranged it for orchestra (op 133) and i'd like to find a recording.  stokowski and muti are my two favorite conductors.  maybe a glimmer of light will appear.

the only thing to explain a bit about the meanderings, perhaps in beethoven's thinking, was that between march (when i think the two piano version was published or composed) and july - beethoven was dealing with an unruly and depressed nephew Karl - whom in july bought two pistols and pointed them right and left at his temples.  one totally missed and the other just grazed his forehead.  of course, beethoven, having already lost his mind - lost the energy to deal with Karl and decided sometime (or perhaps days after) that Karl must go live with the other brother johann?.  anyway, so he takes Karl in december to the other brother.  on the way back, catches a terrible cold.  and, so it goes.  the family did him in.

now, if you want to get really wierded out on this story - if you follow dr. dick's blog - karl (the nephew) could have actaully been the love child of ms. riess and beethoven - but married karl senior (beethoven's bro) who died.  now, this would explain a bit of beethoven's obsessing over karl.  who knows.  i don't really think that it would have been easy for beethoven to be married.  but, this guy really does make an interesting life for himself.  and, it would be interesting, after all these years - with dna testing to see if any flames actually carried the beethoven bloodline.  not that it is so important - but it would clear up a few mysteries. 

[moi_not_toi]

I also have been searching for this, so I guess we'll just have to wait 3 years.
Sometimes the best things you just have to wait for.

[pianistimo]

yes.  all i keep thinking is that sometimes we don't even know what we are wishing for.  i mean, if it was in the last box at the bottom of the box - maybe someone thought it was trash.  but, if it was in beethoven's hand - it certainly wasn't trash.  just that it possibly represented an image to us of what it is like to be deaf.  will you let me know if there are things to be done in the meantime?  like anton halm.  what about his version?  did it never get past publishing?

[pianistimo]

well, i found the first two artaria versions through the 'digital archives' of beethoven haus in bonn.

www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=5098&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=5057&_ug=pieces%20for%20four%20hand

[pianistimo]

so fun!