What is wrong with religious symbols?

[pianowelsh]

Hi, I dont know if you guys saw the MSN news about a lady at Heathrow who was sent home for refusing to remove her cross but this seems to be a big issue in these days. The public display of any organised form of religion seems to be becoming more and more offensive to people (or at least governments) Is this the same where you guys live and if so why do you think it is so??

[henrah]

To me it seems like the minorities have more power than the majorities. If all the Muslims in England outraged about how they don't like to see Christians kissing the cross around their neck, then it very well could be banned.

Do you happen to know who complained about the woman showing her cross, or is it a written rule now?

[thalbergmad]

Henrah is right here and i would go so far as to say that England appears to be full of whinging and extremely sensitive Muslims.

Personally, i could not give a monkeys if anyone wears veils or crosses and neither should anyone else.

The Muslim community would ban Christmas if they could. Already, some councils will not be displaying any lights because complaints have been made in the past.

GET REAL.

Thal

[prometheus]

Islam and Christianity are the same. Christians and Muslims have the same interest. They ally when it comes to things like these.

It's the atheists that want to reduce the role of religion in public life. Not muslims. Genarally muslims are more pro-christianity than moderate christians.

[ahinton]

Henrah is right here and i would go so far as to say that England appears to be full of whinging and extremely sensitive Muslims.

Personally, i could not give a monkeys if anyone wears veils or crosses and neither should anyone else.

The Muslim community would ban Christmas if they could. Already, some councils will not be displaying any lights because complaints have been made in the past.

GET REAL.

Thal

There's no point in asking anyone here to "get real", as none of them are the legislators, regulators or employers concerned. That said, I agree with what you write here, except to add that (a) it's not just about Muslims (as the cross issue proves) and (b) even the Muslim-oriented issues are not entirely generated by Muslims themselves. In the "white shiraz" thread in this section of the forum I wrote earlier today about the latest nonsense in the ongoing steamroller of creeping "nanny-state" political correctitude in UK; this has nothing to do with any religion but is, it seems to me, motivated by desires that are not necessarily dissimilar - i.e. those that centre around the determination to tell more and more people how they must live every aspect of their lives.

The "Muslim community" wouldn't ban Christmas in UK; a handful of particularly vociferous Muslims might wish for this, but it is not a general desire among British Muslims, any more than is the imposition of Sharia law in UK.

Islam and Christianity are the same. Christians and Muslims have the same interest. They ally when it comes to things like these.

It's the atheists that want to reduce the role of religion in public life. Not muslims. Genarally muslims are more pro-christianity than moderate christians.

That is neither strictly correct nor is it wholly untrue. Islam and Christianity are no more "the same" than are the various demoninations within Christianity itself; however, they all do (or are at least supposed to) share certain ideas and ideals, so your reference to a common interest is far from wrong and it is also true that some Christians and some Muslims do ally over certain issues. Not all atheists "want to reduce the role of religion in public life"; in fact, I suggest that only a relatively small proportion of them would seek to go that far (there are, after all, few "born-again atheist fundamentalists" around).

To me it seems like the minorities have more power than the majorities. If all the Muslims in England outraged about how they don't like to see Christians kissing the cross around their neck, then it very well could be banned.

I don't think that your first  point is quite true and, in any event, the Muslim population in UK is not exactly a "minority", even though its is not (yet) a majority either (and given the anticipated influx of people from other non-Muslim nations, I suspect that they will not be so in the foreseeable future either). If all English Muslims did protest as you suggest, it is still relatively unlikely that a non-Muslim government would get away with legislating against it, even if it tried; however, what is far less likely still is that all English Muslims WOULD protest about such a thing.

Do you happen to know who complained about the woman showing her cross, or is it a written rule now?

I cannot recall all the circumstances, but I believe that it was British Airways censuring one of its employees, who is going to sue her employer for this; it is most certainly not a "written rule" in the sense that it has become illegal.

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Henrah is right here and i would go so far as to say that England appears to be full of whinging and extremely sensitive Muslims.

Personally, i could not give a monkeys if anyone wears veils or crosses and neither should anyone else.

The Muslim community would ban Christmas if they could. Already, some councils will not be displaying any lights because complaints have been made in the past.

GET REAL.

Thal

The last christmas our familly had a visit from a muslim friend of my father. He celebrated christmas just like us(like most norwegian famillies do). We even ate pork(he didn't), and drank wine(he did), we gave eachother presents and he even helped to decorate the three.

so you GET REAL

[zheer]

. Genarally muslims are more pro-christianity than moderate christians.

  It is said in the Koran, that the muslim faith has great respect for the christian faith.

[zheer]

). We even ate pork(he didn't), and drank wine(he did),

   Ha hahaha i also dont eat pork, i did once then i was told by a jewish girl what are you doing eating pig, i believe Jews also dont eat pork

[Kassaa]

The last christmas our familly had a visit from a muslim friend of my father. He celebrated christmas just like us(like most norwegian famillies do). We even ate pork(he didn't), and drank wine(he did), we gave eachother presents and he even helped to decorate the three.

so you GET REAL

LIEK THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS ZOMG N00B GO EAT PIE!

[thalbergmad]

LIEK THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS ZOMG N00B GO EAT PIE!

You have saved me a post and i could not have put it better.

Thanks

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The "Muslim community" wouldn't ban Christmas in UK

Not Christmas anymore, i think we have to say winter festivities.

Please remember this when you put your festive lights on your winter tree.

I hope i am on your winter celebration card list.

Now, where is my crucifix??

Thal

[Kassaa]

You have saved me a post and i could not have put it better.

Thanks

Thal

You are very welcome!

[prometheus]

Here some muslims are turning Eid ul-Fitr into a kind of christmas. Meaning it is being secularised. Kind of the 'Everyone is invited...' thing.

No way western Muslims are against christmas. They just want Eid ul-Fitr(sheesh english doesn't have an English version of this word yet? I mean, I never heard of Eid ul-Fitr. I know it by a dutch name ) to be national holydays. Almost all national holydays in the Netherlands are christian holydays.

I oppose all forms of theism. But this is just non-sense.

There's tons of muslims that join in with secular chistmas as well. Christmas is already totally secularised. Christmas is also celebrated in Japan, for example.

[ahinton]

Not Christmas anymore, i think we have to say winter festivities.

Please remember this when you put your festive lights on your winter tree.

I hope i am on your winter celebration card list.

Now, where is my crucifix??

Thal

Yes - "winter festivities", indeed! You were the one that mentioned "Christmas" in this context and I responded accordingly, but you are quite right to point up yet another of these ludicrous (allegedly) politically correct euphemsims where with we are all as beset in UK as we are willing to be (which, in your case and mine, ain't a lot!).

Do remember that I have no more truck with all this rubbish that you do when you counsel me what to remember when next I decorate a Christmas (sorry, Winter Wonderlandfest) tree...

Card list? Well, being the old Luddite that I am, I don't send e-cards to anyone, so you're off my list at least unless and until you provide me with your street mailing address...

I have no idea where your crucifix is. Just try to think where last you put it - and, while figuring this out, try not to get too - er - cross...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Here some muslims are turning Eid ul-Fitr into a kind of christmas. Meaning it is being secularised. Kind of the 'Everyone is invited...' thing.

No way western Muslims are against christmas. They just want Eid ul-Fitr(sheesh english doesn't have an English version of this word yet? I mean, I never heard of Eid ul-Fitr. I know it by a dutch name ) to be national holydays. Almost all national holydays in the Netherlands are christian holydays.

I oppose all forms of theism. But this is just non-sense.

There's tons of muslims that join in with secular chistmas as well. Christmas is already totally secularised. Christmas is also celebrated in Japan, for example.

Not only this - but when I was in Mauritius (Ile Maurice to the French speakers among you) - admittedly 16 years ago - at this time of the year, the Hindu festival Divali was being celebrated, principally (of course) by the island's Hindus (of whom there were probably rather more than members of other groups), yet it would not have been what it was for those Hindus had it not been an excuse openly to celebrate their religious festival with Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Jews - which is what happened. Not only that, when in Mauritius's second city ("city"? - it's a big village!), I was in a shop which was selling linens, lace and such when I heard someone ask for directions to the synagogue (I'd not realised at that time that the island even had one) and the reply came "it's up the hill, first right, past the Roman Catholic Church and you can't miss it - it's opposite the mosque". Now I do not know if this was a joke and I had no time to check it out, but the very fact that this was even said at all must count for something.

It is a sad thing that Christmas has become secularised, as you say it has; it is not because of this that some Muslims "join in" with Christmas celebrations - indeed, some Muslims that I know deprecate the way that Christmas has been commercialised, almost as though this fact somehow threatens to endanger their desire to involve themelves in it along with its genuine Christian celebrants...

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

"it's up the hill, first right, past the Roman Catholic Church and you can't miss it - it's opposite the mosque". Now I do not know if this was a joke and I had no time to check it out, but the very fact that this was even said at all must count for something.

This is common in India as well, I have heard.

Well, I am not for commercialization. And yes, there are also muslims that fear their religious festivals suffer the same fate christmas has. But this does not really concern me. I don't see why one should want to keep their traditions 'pure'. I am for diversity of culture and for secularization as well.

[wishful thinker]

Islam is the greatest threat to western civilisation.  Discuss. 

[thalbergmad]

A "politically correct" version of "deck the halls with bows of holly".

Approved by the Labour Party and the Muslim Council of Great Britian.

Deck the halls with boughs of non-endangered plant species
Fa la la la la, la la la la
'Tis the season to be self-actualizing,
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Don we now our alternate-lifestyle apparel
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Toll the ancient non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday carol
Fa la la la la, la la la la

See the blazing log of non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday-non-endangered wood before us,
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Play the harp without unnecessary brutality and join the chorus
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Sing we emotionally stable in a collective group effort,
Fa la la la la la la la la
Heedless of the weather patterns despite the effects of global warming,
Fa la la la la, la la la la

Fast away the mature year passes
Fa la la la la la la la la
Hail the new year without any implicit ageism, ye persons
Fa la la la la la la la la
Dance in a non-hierarchical manner in merry measure,
Fa la la la la la la la la
While I tell of non-materialistic, non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday
treasure,

Fa la la la la, la la la la

Massive respect to the composer.

Thal

[prometheus]

Islam is the greatest threat to western civilisation.  Discuss. 

Postulating such opinions and not providing any arguments yourself is unethical. even if it is a joke, which of course it is in this case. But that's not really relevant. Some person may just jump on this. Which may be wat you want.

[ahinton]

A "politically correct" version of "deck the halls with bows of holly".

Approved by the Labour Party and the Muslim Council of Great Britian.

Deck the halls with boughs of non-endangered plant species
Fa la la la la, la la la la
'Tis the season to be self-actualizing,
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Don we now our alternate-lifestyle apparel
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Toll the ancient non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday carol
Fa la la la la, la la la la

See the blazing log of non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday-non-endangered wood before us,
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Play the harp without unnecessary brutality and join the chorus
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Sing we emotionally stable in a collective group effort,
Fa la la la la la la la la
Heedless of the weather patterns despite the effects of global warming,
Fa la la la la, la la la la

Fast away the mature year passes
Fa la la la la la la la la
Hail the new year without any implicit ageism, ye persons
Fa la la la la la la la la
Dance in a non-hierarchical manner in merry measure,
Fa la la la la la la la la
While I tell of non-materialistic, non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday
treasure,

Fa la la la la, la la la la

Massive respect to the composer.

Thal

And at least as much for bringing this to our attention, Thal! Is this something of your creation, or have you merely reproduced it? Either way, you'll surely bring plenteous joy - sorry, "self-actualising" - to all those that read it here!

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

LIEK THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS ZOMG N00B GO EAT PIE!

 

There are of course exeptions, as I prooved. How can you know how many muslims who want to bann christmas? For all you know most muslims have no desire to bann christmas.

btw: I am an atheist.

[pianistimo]

if you want to be politically correct - you would see that in jerimiah 10:3 - cutting down a tree and decorating it had nothing to do with Christ.  'for the customs of the people are delusion; because it is wood cut from the forest, the work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.  they decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers so that it will not totter.  like a scarecrow in a cucumber field are they, and they cannot speak; they must be carried, because they cannot walk!  (evergreen tree worship was observed before Christ was born - as it was a symbol of fertility through the dead of winter).  do not fear them, for they can do no harm, nor can they do any good.'

here's a site for anyone interested:

www.strike-the-root.com/4/wasdin/wasdin30.html

ps i realize some people like thal save their trees.  i'm all for conservation.

[ahinton]

A "politically correct" version of "deck the halls with bows of holly".

Approved by the Labour Party and the Muslim Council of Great Britian.

Deck the halls with boughs of non-endangered plant species
Fa la la la la, la la la la
'Tis the season to be self-actualizing,
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Don we now our alternate-lifestyle apparel
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Toll the ancient non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday carol
Fa la la la la, la la la la

See the blazing log of non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday-non-endangered wood before us,
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Play the harp without unnecessary brutality and join the chorus
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Sing we emotionally stable in a collective group effort,
Fa la la la la la la la la
Heedless of the weather patterns despite the effects of global warming,
Fa la la la la, la la la la

Fast away the mature year passes
Fa la la la la la la la la
Hail the new year without any implicit ageism, ye persons
Fa la la la la la la la la
Dance in a non-hierarchical manner in merry measure,
Fa la la la la la la la la
While I tell of non-materialistic, non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday
treasure,

Fa la la la la, la la la la

Massive respect to the composer.

Thal

Or maybe even

The Tony and the Gordon,
When they are so full-blown,
Of all the prats that are in the House
The Gordon takes the crown.

The rising legislation
And the running up of tax,
The playing up of merry cronies
Sweet stabbings in the backs.

The Tony bears an image
As white as the lily flower
But it’s totally discredited
So he’s soon to lose all power.

Oh, the rising legislation
And the running up of tax,
The playing up of merry cronies
Sweet stabbings in the backs.

The Tony bears all Blairites
As pink as any blood,
But he’s giving way to sour Gordon Brown
Who will drown us all in mud.

Oh, the rising legislation
And the running up of tax,
The playing up of merry cronies
Sweet stabbings in the backs.

The Tony bears a prickle,
As blunt as last year’s corn,
While Gordon waits – sweet Jesus Christ –
Until old Tony’s gorn.

Oh, the rising legislation
And the running up of tax,
The playing up of merry cronies
Sweet stabbings in the backs.

The Tony bears a bark,
That shows his utter gall,
To let Gordon Brown be foisted on us
And ruin Britons all.

Oh, the rising legislation
And the running up of tax,
The playing up of merry cronies
Sweet stabbings in the backs.

The days of old New Labour
Are well (un)truly done,
And of all the twits waiting in the wings
We’ll have David Cameron.

Oh, the rising up in protest
And the running from UK
To Spain or France, or the Caribbean –
Thank God we got away!


Best,

Alistair

[lisztisforkids]

btw: I am an atheist.

 As if we already dident know... 

 

[pianistimo]

not only religious symbols but sites can be built over.  if you google wikipedia and then 'christianised_sites'  you'll find that the vatican was built over a site that was used to worship mithras.  the similarities of the worship practices were supposedly similar in that 'eating the body and drinking the blood ' as with the symbols of bread and wine - were actually blood and flesh in mithrism.   

https://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa052902a.htm

[leucippus]

~~~

I think religions should be banned from planet Earth.

Religious people are hateful troublemakers.

They should be viewed as vile criminals that are out to destroy the loving spirit of mankind. 

They are infestations of evil.

~~~

[pianowelsh]

You ought to be carefull leppicus...very soon a statement like that will be considered insightfull to racial hatred and you will be whipped off to prison and sent to correctional classes.
I want to make it very clear that I left this thread deliberately wide open and I mentioned only the cross incident.. this was in no way designed to turn into an examination of fundamental islam as it seems it has turned out to be by and large. I think its rather unhelpfull to lambast peoples firmly held beliefs myself...that dosent mean that they cant be discussed and hotly argued..of course there is always a place for the difficult questions..BUT some of the posts here blatantly insult for the sake of it. I ask again 'What is wrong with the display of religious symbols?'

Its news to me the girl was kissing the cross??! I heard that she was merely wearing it..which is of course quite different..by all acounts its absolutely tiny too. were not talking a life-sized replica cast in silver...it was smaller than a postage stamp!

I have many instances in my own life when people have complained/ridiculed me for doing overtly christian things in public...in what is called a Christian country..but for now i would rather not comment.

[ahinton]

You ought to be carefull leppicus...very soon a statement like that will be considered insightfull to racial hatred and you will be whipped off to prison and sent to correctional classes.
I want to make it very clear that I left this thread deliberately wide open and I mentioned only the cross incident.. this was in no way designed to turn into an examination of fundamental islam as it seems it has turned out to be by and large. I think its rather unhelpfull to lambast peoples firmly held beliefs myself...that dosent mean that they cant be discussed and hotly argued..of course there is always a place for the difficult questions..BUT some of the posts here blatantly insult for the sake of it. I ask again 'What is wrong with the display of religious symbols?'

Its news to me the girl was kissing the cross??! I heard that she was merely wearing it..which is of course quite different..by all acounts its absolutely tiny too. were not talking a life-sized replica cast in silver...it was smaller than a postage stamp!

I have many instances in my own life when people have complained/ridiculed me for doing overtly christian things in public...in what is called a Christian country..but for now i would rather not comment.

I do not think that it is any longer realistic to continue to refer to Britain as a "Christian country". I presume that you do so largely because Christianity is the "official" religion (insofar as there is one at all) in England, at least to the extent that the term "the established Church" is still generally understood here - both by most Christians of all kinds and by certain non-Christians - as representing "the Church of England", despite the fact that this is nothing more than a political status, since Roman Catholicism and the various branches of non-conformism nevertheless prevail here.

The British Airways incident was, however, of such absurdity that, had one not known its source, one might have been forgiven for crediting it to the present government, so obsessed as it is about matters of "inclusiveness" and "cohesion" (or any other meaningless portmanteau word you care to choose) and about interfering with the lives of the electorate.

You are to some extent correct in your warning to "leucippus"; the extent to which you may not be is illustrated as follows.
1. It may not apply if does not reside in UK.
2. By "racial hatred" I think you meant "religious hatred", but then if the present persuasions continue to hold good and develop here it will soon be censurable to say "good morning!" to someone, since what's good for one person may not be so for the next and since what's "morning" in UK is "evening" in Australia.
3. He probably won't be "whipped off to prison", since prisons are already full to bursting point in UK, a country which apparently has the highest prison population per capita of any Western European nation.

I am not being frivolous here for the sake of it - the questions of "incitement to religious hatred" and "incitement to racial hatred" are undoubtedly as important as they are serious. That said, who - and on what grounds laid down by whom - should realistically determine how and when anyone may specifically and unequivocally have "incited" either? It's governmental interference again - no more, no less. In fact, if anyone is risking such incitement, it is the preesnt government by constantly gnawing at these issue and inflating them beyond their importance, so that journalists and the like pick up on them and just won't leave them alone; in so doing, it is arguably making it harder for people of one religious persuasion to "rub along" with those of different religious persuasions or none. That said, lambasting people for holding beliefs - or lack of them - other than (or in apparent conflict with) one's own is a similarly unhelpful and unwelcome practice and is accordingly to be deprecated, if for no stronger reason, because it is so plainly unnecessary.

A Muslim that I know - a genuinely devout one who generally keeps his Islamic beliefs to himself (in the sense of carrying them with dignity, letting them inform the manner in which he conducts his life and not forcing them down the throats of others) - attends sung Mass in Latin at a Roman Catholic Church once every month in addition to the customary patterns of worship that befit a Muslim; he began to do this only after seeking out the priest, identifying himself as a Muslim and asking the priest's permission (if you please!) to attend such services. Of course he is unable to participate to the extent of being able to partake of Holy Communion, but in no way does he find his presence at such services at odds with, or undermining of, his Islamic faith. Those of his Muslim friends who are aware that he does this have no problem with it either.

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

Alistair,

I find this incredible    How did he manage to find a proper mass amongst all the folkey clappy post Vatican II embarassments?  Hats off to him 

Presumably he hasn't the foggiest what's going on (not, presumably, being a latin speaker), so why does he go?

[ahinton]

Alistair,

I find this incredible    How did he manage to find a proper mass amongst all the folkey clappy post Vatican II embarassments?  Hats off to him 

Presumably he hasn't the foggiest what's going on (not, presumably, being a latin speaker), so why does he go?

A rather greater prevalence of the dreadful kinds of what you call "folkey clappy" activity masquerading as religious worship is to be found nowadays within the various areas of the Protestant Church than within the Roman Catholic Church in Britain, but - non-conformism aside - it is usually possible to find, within both the Protestant and the Roman Catholic Church in Britain, places to worship that eschew this kind of thing altogether.

The person of whom I wrote is fluent in English, French and German, has a reasonable knowledge of Spanish and Italian and had attended what in Britain is quaintly called a "public school" (i.e. a fee-paying private school) where, among other things, he was educated in Latin to A level standard, so he knows precisely what is going on in those services, otherwise he would presumably have chosen instead to attend Mass in English (which is far more frequently given).

Hats off to him indeed! - although in echoing your sentiment here I am not necessarily recommending his course of action to all Muslims who happen to have learnt some Latin; it is up to each individual to do what he or she wishes to do in this regard. It is just fortunate that it has given rise to not the slightest animosity within his family or circle of friends.

Best,

Alistair

[leucippus]

You ought to be carefull leppicus...very soon a statement like that will be considered insightfull to racial hatred and you will be whipped off to prison and sent to correctional classes.

Like I care.

The entire planet Earth already is a prison of correctional classes.

Where have you been?

[pianistimo]

perhaps in all situations - broadening ones horizons only to narrow them again - is most likely to happen for all people regardless of  religion or political persuasion, etc.  i think it's sort of 'what did you grow up with.'  what are you comfortable with?  what usually makes us comfortable is some kind of reminiscences - as with a certain recipie of mom's or whatever.  i can't typically see someone totally comfortable in an 'outsiders' situation - but stretching the boundaries can be illuminating. 

also, not speaking out of turn.  i suppose i would take offense at some things i say about religious symbols if i were catholic.  so, unless i am asked - i usually don't say that i don't pray with beads.  but someone gave me something pretty similar that was a prayer chain bead necklace from iraq.  i kept it and thought when i saw it 'how similar are people all over the world.'  things to bring comfort, hope, and joy come in various means - and who are we to take away someone else's joy.  whatever brings them hope and joy!

noone can convince anyone else by retribution (especially if they are minding their own business and worshipping as they feel is correct).  it's madness to blow up churches, mosques, temples,e tc.  no real reason there - and it certainly wouldn't have much basis in true christianity.

[ahinton]

perhaps in all situations - broadening ones horizons only to narrow them again - is most likely to happen for all people regardless of  religion or political persuasion, etc.  i think it's sort of 'what did you grow up with.'  what are you comfortable with?  what usually makes us comfortable is some kind of reminiscences

Fair enough, as far is it may go - but what about those who "grew up with" nothing at all in the way of religious or even atheistic influence?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

i think other things take the place of religion.  perhaps philosophy.  interestingly enough, Christ was actually quite philosophic in places, but not as much as the apostle paul.  the only thing lacking for completing the questions, though, is that the answers appear to come 'out of nowhere.'  but, the way Christians look at it - is 'revelation.'  this is hard to accept for someone trained for critical thinking.  in fact, it seems quite absurd. 

but, you have to admit that there are a lot of things that are unexplainable to the deepest most profound levels of understanding.  i happen to love old shows of jaques cousteau.  he was, to me, a real thinker and wanted to find out the mysteries of the oceans.  though i respect him very very highly and think he did soooo much (as did the crocodile hunter) - you can tell that even THEY were still mystified at the end of their lives by things that they still did not understand.  so a lifetime of learning can still leave one almost as perplexed as when one looks around the world as a newborn baby.

 

[ahinton]

Fair enough, as far is it may go - but what about those who "grew up with" nothing at all in the way of religious or even atheistic influence?

i think other things take the place of religion.  perhaps philosophy.

What - in all cases? Do you therefore believe that those raised without the provision of religious or atheistic example invariably end up finding that, for them, "other things take the place of religion...perhaps philosophy"? If so, why do you suppose that this might be? And do you therefore exclude the possibility that those raised without either such examples are not themselves likely to turn at some time to any form of religion, or indeed to atheism? I don't quite understand your stance here - or your reason for it (whatever it actually is).

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

i can't speak for you - but for myself at age 16 - i was sort of awe struck when it seemed like God was performing a few miracles for me.  i never ever before saw a miracle in my life - so the first time i was fairly shocked.  i should have been in a head on collision.  my boyfriend was driving on icy roads and we went around a corner and slid into oncoming traffic.  i shut my eyes as i saw headlights coming at me - and prayed.  the next thing i knew we were continuing on as if nothing had happened.  in that split second of prayer - i truly believed.  but, then i forgot again (almost a week or two later) - so then a similar thing happens twice more.  we are sliding backwards down a ski hill (again in the car) - it does several turns around and could have gone off an embankment.  but, after prayer - it turns straight down and we continue driving.  then - we go off in mid-afternoon one time skiing and get stranded between two mountains and almost freeze to death.  i start praying - and these two snowmobiles come and rescue us.  and they both have tow lines.

growing up in inclement weather - this whole thing probably started much sooner.  but, i didn't realize it fully at the time.  when i was 8 - my father and mother and younger brother decided to fly a single engine plane to fairbanks - to circle hot springs.  the weather was bad and they turned around - but my plane (who was flown bya  friend of my dad's and his wife continued on).  the plane engine just decided to quit.  thankfully he was a good pilot and gently landed on snow as if nothing happened.  we were 30 miles out of fairbanks and it was 30 degrees below that night.  i am thankful they were prepared for anything and brought a coleman stove, some food, a tent, some extra wool socks and of course matches and the know how of putting it all together.  so, we had a nice time for a while - until aroiund 10pm when the cold was really biting.  we started puttin gon more socks and huddling closer together.  after spending the night and part of the next day - we were rescued by helicopter (we marched an SOS in the snow and i think that helped a bit) - but inbetween that time i think i started praying.  probably as a child prays.  'please let the helicopter see us.'  it was quite exciting to be rescued - but i always attributed it to God especially later.

now, it has been about 40 years of seeing fairly miraculous things quite freqently.  i don't think anyone can explain them rationally.  for one thing, i consider my husband and children fairly miraculous.  my husband wasn't really looking to get married - and i had prayed for a best friend (as i had given up on marrying a bit - after some disillusionment).  it ends up we get married faster than i would have ever thought with my careful nature.  and, we really get on well.  and, i am most thankful that the birth of my son was fine as he was 3 1/2 weeks overdue.  my daughter alexis had to be resuced by the side of the road one time - as she passed out. and someone came to our aid within a minute!  each of the children has had some kind of emergency or other.  also, we've gone through times of unemployment and hardship - and wierd happy things happen.  one time a neighbor three houses down came to the house with boxes of food and said that their  refrigerator stopped working and they needed to unload the food before it went bad.  it was towards the end of the month - during a period of unemployment for my husband.  i was working odd jobs - but they were paying the bills and not so much for groceries.  so i was grateful and attributed these miracles to God.

several times recently, people in my church have been healed of various problems.  it's hard to convince someone else - who might say - well, there's probably a scientific explaination.  to me, there's really not.  it's 'random' and yet 'planned.'  i see God's hands in everything now.

sorry if i got off the track of your original question about why i think that philosophy takes the place of religion sometimes (i think it is not necessarily in all situations).  from my perspective - really bright people need accurate answers.  they are not satisfied with other's personal experiences.  sometimes they don't experience the same things in their lives and i don't know why.  perhaps God waits until each one of us is fully convinced (with even a mustard seed of faith) that He is.  when you believe that He is and that He can do anything - you start seeing that it is really true!  it's like you believe before you really believe.  you have 1/100th belief and 99% unbelief.  but, the little bit of belief - seems to tide one over.  then, gradually the frequency starts making you believe the unbelievable. 

[ahinton]

i can't speak for you - but for myself at age 16 - i was sort of awe struck when it seemed like God was performing a few miracles for me.  i never ever before saw a miracle in my life - so the first time i was fairly shocked.  i should have been in a head on collision.  my boyfriend was driving on icy roads and we went around a corner and slid into oncoming traffic.  i shut my eyes as i saw headlights coming at me - and prayed.  the next thing i knew we were continuing on as if nothing had happened.  in that split second of prayer - i truly believed.  but, then i forgot again (almost a week or two later) - so then a similar thing happens twice more.  we are sliding backwards down a ski hill (again in the car) - it does several turns around and could have gone off an embankment.  but, after prayer - it turns straight down and we continue driving.  then - we go off in mid-afternoon one time skiing and get stranded between two mountains and almost freeze to death.  i start praying - and these two snowmobiles come and rescue us.  and they both have tow lines.

growing up in inclement weather - this whole thing probably started much sooner.  but, i didn't realize it fully at the time.  when i was 8 - my father and mother and younger brother decided to fly a single engine plane to fairbanks - to circle hot springs.  the weather was bad and they turned around - but my plane (who was flown bya  friend of my dad's and his wife continued on).  the plane engine just decided to quit.  thankfully he was a good pilot and gently landed on snow as if nothing happened.  we were 30 miles out of fairbanks and it was 30 degrees below that night.  i am thankful they were prepared for anything and brought a coleman stove, some food, socks, a tent, some extra wool socks and of course matches and the know how of putting it all together.  so, we had a nice time for a while - until aroiund 10pm when the cold was really biting.  we started puttin gon more socks and huddling closer together.  after spending the night and part of the next day - we were rescued by helicopter (we marched an SOS in the snow and i think that helped a bit) - but inbetween that time i think i started praying.  probably as a child prays.  'please let the helicopter see us.'  it was quite exciting to be rescued - but i always attributed it to God especially later.

now, it has been about 40 years of seeing fairly miraculous things quite freqently.  i don't think anyone can explain them rationally.  for one thing, i consider my husband and children fairly miraculous.  my husband wasn't really looking to get married - and i had prayed for a best friend (as i had given up on marrying a bit - after some disillusionment).  it ends up we get married faster than i would have ever thought with my careful nature.  and, we really get on well.  and, i am most thankful that the birth of my son was fine as he was 3 1/2 weeks overdue.  my daughter alexis had to be resuced by the side of the road one time - as she passed out. and someone came to our aid within a minute!  each of the children has had some kind of emergency or other.  also, we've gone through times of unemployment and hardship - and wierd happy things happen.  one time a neighbor three houses down came to the house with boxes of food and said that their  refrigerator stopped working and they needed to unload the food before it went bad.  it was towards the end of the month - during a period of unemployment for my husband.  i was working odd jobs - but they were paying the bills and not so much for groceries.  so i was grateful and attributed these miracles to God.

several times recently, people in my church have been healed of various problems.  it's hard to convince someone else - who might say - well, there's probably a scientific explaination.  to me, there's really not.  it's 'random' and yet 'planned.'  i see God's hands in everything now.

sorry if i got off the track of your original question about why i think that philosophy takes the place of religion sometimes (i think it is not necessarily in all situations).  from my perspective - really bright people need accurate answers.  they are not satisfied with other's personal experiences.  sometimes they don't experience the same things in their lives and i don't know why.  perhaps God waits until each one of us is fully convinced (with even a mustard seed of faith) that He is.  when you believe that He is and that He can do anything - you start seeing that it is really true!  it's like you believe before you really believe.  you have 1/100th belief and 99% unbelief.  but, the little bit of belief - seems to tide one over.  then, gradually the frequency starts making you believe the unbelievable. 

Yes, you did indeed digress abit until your final paragraph. What strikes me is that, whilst people are invariably to some extent (and for some time during the earlier part of their lives) some kinds of product of their environments, the religious / non-religious thing is nevertheless likely (for those brought up outside it) to end up taking as many different routes as there are people to take them; I do not think that one can generalise - and this is one area where I find it hardest to address certain poeple of one or another kind of religious persuasion - i.e. the apparent desire to generalise. As the composer Delius is credited as having said (albeit about the various manifestations of what he saw as a general dance obsession across parts of early 1920s Europe), "Dixie, Duncan, Dalcroze, Dyaghilev...we don't all dance the same way home".

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

sorry to go on.  but, the most recent miracle has been my leg healing straight as i broke not only the tibea but the fibula (the long thin bone behind it).  the tibea was broken in the middle and the fibula up under the knee.  i thought - ok, with a closed reduction  - i'll at least get the tibea to line up and possibly (just possibly)heal straight.  but, to get the fibula in line and stay that way.  hahahaha.  it's a really fidgity bone. 

i had a strange experience the second day (in which had to wait the entire day - only to find out at 7 pm that i wasn't getting treated until wednesday - and the accident happened on a monday afternoon).  that night, several people came in to pray over my roomie who had knee replacement.  they asked if i wanted a prayer for myself - since i said 'amen' to her prayer.  i said 'sure.'  they prayed that the bones would not only heal straight - but that they would be stronger than before.  so, i was believing - and yet probably had an element of unbelief until i saw the x-ray 8 months later.  both bones had healed straight, correctly, and amazingly withoiut surgery of any kind.  (closed reduction was done by simply manipulating the bones from the outside- which he told me that during the procedure it was likely they would have to cut my leg open to really get things to work into place). 

so, now - i look at many things in my life with awe.  just because i had an accident didn't mean that i couldn't learn more about God and his power.  i think He allowed me to experience some hardship for learning more about Him and having a certain amount of compassion for those that break bones.  i am grateful that he has always been there.

not just for things that i want - but also prayers taht i pray for others.  if someone disbelieves, but asks a person of faith - they can have two or three people pray for them - and find out that their problem (because of going to God for the solution) is no longer a problem.  or, resolves in a way that is unexpected or works out for good later.  sometimes you don't see instant results - but the wait is worth it.

[pianistimo]

sorry if i offended you by 'generalizing.'  it is just that i wish to share a belief structure that to many who are non-religious seems fairly silly.  to believe before seeing.  i mean, non of us has seen God or Christ and all we have is faith, the bible, and history that is proven to be consistent in certain areas regarding what is said - coinciding with that period of history and archeology.

of course, there are many ways to come to God.  He is there whether we believe in Him, on Him, around Him - whatever!  and, i think He is merciful and loving.  He wants all to come to a knowledge of the truth.  the truth is what sets you free. 

philosophers search for truth sometimes as a sort of 'byproduct' of logic.  but, this faith based kind of truth is 'truth first - logic later.'  that doesn't set well by most logical thinkers.  Christ came to tell us the truth.  that we are sinners.  if He didn't tell us - we'd think we were pretty good.  the logic and truth goes together and always has been together - it's just that we don't see it at the beginning.  it seems false to believe in someone you can't see. 

[ahinton]

sorry if i offended you by 'generalizing.'

Please be assured (if you really need to be) that you have not "offended" me by anything!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

i'm so glad.  i have a wandering mind.  sometimes it doesn't take much to go off topic - and several people have said they have a hard time following my train of logic.  perhaps i don't have what most would call 'logic.'  therefore, there's really nothing to follow.

but, in my own defense, i would say that sometimes the best things that happen to us in life - are seemingly very random experiences.

[ahinton]

i'm so glad.  i have a wandering mind.  sometimes it doesn't take much to go off topic - and several people have said they have a hard time following my train of logic

OK - but, since you have so far put forward such a litany of potential obstacles and discouragements to your own plans to travel to Jonathan Powell's recital next month in London, may I please counsel you not to consider travelling thereto by train - of your logic or otherwise - otherwise you'll get very wet on the way...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowelsh]

Hi.....I only went to the shops and taught one student I didnt vanish for like a thousand years lepiccus.

Anyway my point was not so much the Christian angle as such.  You just have to look at the story of Daniel to see that God interceeds for his own when government and foerign powers come against his people. My concern is more that the governments insitance on political correctness and religious intolerance is becoming very invasive and is attempting to control and restrict people of all faiths - this cannot be tolerated. It is naive to say that it is really only doing it for everyones good so that all extremists are silenced and that people can be free to believe whatever they want without comeback.. Really the culmination would be noone would believe/hold to anything but that of their own imaginings. there is noone who doesnt grow up with some worldview(which may or may not take the form of 'organised religion'). freedom is the right to express your own beliefs and hopes..freedom is not being told you are not allowed to have any publically expressed beliefs and you have to keep what you have to yourself!! There is no freedom in that atall! What will they do to music next?? Oh you can do that it's too provokative it represents something we dont accept in this society anymore. Oh that music is far too filled with patriotism - thats dangerous and incitefull..we can have that. Oh that music is too strongly associated with a religious ideal, we shouldnt hoist our views onto other people therefore we cant programme it. etcetc.  Say waht you like but there are already shades of all these things happening now!! Its regression as a nation in striving for freedom we are tying ourselves up in an iron web.  What greatly concerns me is the way religious groups that previously had good relationships and were open to friendly dialogue and discussion and now becoming radicalised and are increasingly ghettoised. Which is exceedingly unhelpfull and it is occuring because the government are taking away the rights for people to just be themselves and thus compounding their beliefs and causing them to fight harder for them to be recognised.  Mr hinton I admire your muslim friend and while I do not understand his reasons for attending mass I welcome the openness and inquiring mind he displays.  I would however Like to see a Christian wearing a cross around their neck walk into a mosque in the east end of london or the middle of Bradford..unfortunately im not sure they would get quite as open a response, although in somecases im sure they would. it is true however that broadly speaking churches in the UK exclude noone from attending services ( I cant answer for any isolated circumstances when someone may have been refused entry??!). I an my friends have however had issues reccently. The Christian unions posters welcoming allcomers were ripped down and a nasty letter sent in saying that the jewish community were offended that they had not been invited to the union and wanted to know why they didnt have thier own union. We could only say 'allcomers means allcomers and if you want a union speak to the students union commitee'.  On another occassion a group of us were in town and were out for a meal. We as is our custom said thanks by way of a grace for the food... we were asked on our way out not to frequent the venue again by the management as they felt that the overt show of faith was inappropriate for a public venue...I hasten to emphasise this was not a charismatic prayer meeting...it was a relatively discrete saying thanks to God for the food. These are just personal examples and are of course specific to christianity but I believe instances like this are on the increase for all adherants of the major faith groups and I find this lack of tolerance extremely distastefull.

[leucippus]

You just have to look at the story of Daniel to see that God interceeds for his own when government and foerign powers come against his people.

I personally don't respect any doctrine that suggests that God has chosen people.  I refuse to believe that God is so shallow and stupid as that.   As far as I'm concerned any doctrine that makes any such claims was obviously written by egotistical men.  Of course, other people are free to believe whatever they like.  But to believe that God has a chosen people is to automatically believe in prejudice and bigotry.

freedom is the right to express your own beliefs and hopes..freedom is not being told you are not allowed to have any publically expressed beliefs and you have to keep what you have to yourself!!

I disagree.

There are a lot of things we are not free to do.  Human societies will never be 100% free.   To do that would require removing all laws and law enforcement agencies altogether.  That's never going to happen.   Even having to pay taxes, and abide by building codes, or have a driver's license, etc, etc, etc, are all restrictions on your freedoms.  There can be no such thing as a completely free society.  It simply isn't possible.

Moreover, being free to have religious views is one thing.  Being free to shove them in the face of other people is another.  Where is the freedom of the other people not to have these things shoved in their faces?  Just like it's illegal to walk around naked in most places.  People have a right not to have religion shoved in their faces too.   Every time you give a freedom to one person you take a freedom away from someone else.

Modern day societies simple can't be 100%.  That's a fact. The only way they could implement that would be to proclaim "Every man for himself!" and just get out of everyone's way. 

You mentioned a restaurant where the proprietor did not care to have you display your religious ceremonies in his establishment.   Well, are you suggesting that he should not have the RIGHT and FREEDOM to choose that?  To give you the freedom to do it would require revoking his freedom not to have it done.

You just can't have a WIN-WIN situation it a 100% free society.

What freedom really means to me is that YOU have the freedom to go find another restaurant where you can perform your religious ceremonies.  That's FREEDOM.  Pushing your religious ceremonies onto everyone else by claiming that YOU should be free to hold your religious ceremonies in anyone's establishment is to deny THEM their freedoms.

You don't even have a sense of the word FREEDOM.  You think it just means that YOU should be able to do anything YOU want with total disrespect for other people's freedom.  That's not freedom in my book.  That's nothing more than self-centered arrogance on your part.

[pianistimo]

    in defence of the idea of freedom - i think more christians should have access to billboards.  we cannot control what we see nowdays in the media and on billboards, and what we hear in restaurants (which can often be loud music or profanity by customers).  naked people are nothing, leucippus, in large cities.  billboards, movies, tv shows, etc. are all about this too.  we lose a sense of who we are and who we want to be when faced with a barrage of all this.

freedom for the masses can also still be freedom for individuals - but there has to be a certain even playing field.  obviously this is not just the work of people - but of Satan himself.  He doesn't want people to come to the knowledge of God and salvation.

personally, i kind of like this one house in pa that created their own billboard and frequently change scriptures on it.  and, certain churches write kinda funny things - but are usually combined with a scriptural idea and make you think about positive things on the way to work or to the store. 

Christianity is really the least of all possible worries.  in it, you have the freedom to be imperfect, and yet a desire to love and appreciate all that God does - so you don't want to take your freedom forgranted.  because He first loved us...we want to love others.  not a pushy love really.  in fact, in the bible it says that if someone questions our faith - we should attempt to give an answer according to the faith that lies within us.  also, we are told to be ' anxious for nothing.'  this is very different than the views of the modern world.  to be argumentative, consider ourselves first, and be anxious about everything.  in Christianity we are always told to basically put ourselves mid to last.  it takes away some of the pressure and worry.  we don't care if someone else goes first or even gets the better of us in some situations.

i get the sense you are already like this in many ways, leucippus.  the fact that you can live comfortably without a lot of extraneous things.     

[pianowelsh]

Dear leppicus, you clearly didnt read my post thoroghly as you have gotten the wrong end of the stick several times per sentence.  i have to say though God does have a chosen people and most world religions would claim this - its not exclusively Christian although we might not agree on who God has chosen.  Let me also say We are noone to tell God what he can and cant do.. He formed us and sustains the whole of creation, if he decides to save some of the pitifull specimines that this fallen world contains its Grace to us.  He has the perfect right to choose or not choose anyone He wants - thats why He's God. He Also really clearly laid it out in his word, which by the way for the record dosent come from men - its inspired of God and written by a ton of authors throughout different generations many of whom didnt have knowledge of he other's writings (or at least full knowledge) and yet somehow it agrees.  Your view is precisely what Anne Widecombe was mentioning that its fine that anyone else can express thier views but not Christians - you may not be aware of it but implicit in that is that Christians are less human than people of no particular persuasion and the should be forced to be silent and be like you Or be repremanded.  Im sure you wouldnt express it like that...but its not a million steps away.  I dont suggest that modern society should be 100% free...Only in regard to freedom of religious expression. Which this country has been for hundreds of years and has been up until reccently. The 'every man for himself' you mentioned is precisely the feuding situation which government is trying to make law which will actually curtail religious expression not help it. Regarding the proprietor - no im not suggesting he dosent have the righ to do that - although law might. I was proposing that he was showing a lack of religious tolerance with regard to christians..but im sure he would happily serve someone wearing a hijab( I can say that having seen both the proprietor and the restaurant clientel). I have to make straight we didnt push our ceremonies on anyone..we were in a quiet corner of the restaurant, we were quiet, it lasted less than one minute and it wasnt announced to the whole restaurant it was for our own group.

[pianistimo]

dear leucippus,

i think a great misunderstanding is that whomever God chooses is somehow more important.  all through history - usually they are the prophets or someone like that who suffers greatly for expressing the gospel.  they are servants of the people.  even Christ said, 'you know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.  but it is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for MANY.'

because of how much effort was expended...i don't think He wants any lost.  in fact, he leaves the 99 for the one lost sheep.  perhaps the idea of 'chosen' is a sort of misnomer - because Christ expressed many times that He came not into the world 'to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.'

it's basically an invitation to everyone.  noone is neglected or left out.  the parable of the wedding supper was only that some people were not ready for Christ's return.  that was because they had no oil (Holy Spirit) and no proper clothing (deeds).  These are important, no doubt.

[pianowelsh]

Agreed the call goes out and those who respond are saved - thats the way God ordained it. Its not like a fee paying members club .  if you hear the voice of God telling you to call out to him for salvation then you need to do it...the provision has already been made for you to come to him..you just need to walk it out.  My point was that once you are one of God's people the way you relate to God and God relates to you is VERY different to those who dont know him. Christians are adopted into the family of God and he becomes our Abba father. Even in earthly terms we see the way a father defends his kids before an attack, God has redeemed his Children by the blood of Jesus so we are precious to him and he jealously protects his own. This is why Daniel in the old testament and people like stephen in the new testament could be bold to the point of death and beyond because they were secure in the Love of God.  Christians do not cease to become christians if you strip away our religious symbols our freedoms to meet publically or even to meet together atall in an organised service, you could ban the right to own and or display a bible outlaw praying out loud and still the church would grow.. God is not limited and he has a supernatural way of ministering to his people in their time of need.  So in one sense you could say there is no value in wearing a cross for the Christian and ok in one sense Yes..there isnt but we have been brought up in a free culture where we have been educated to express our differences is a positive thing..all of a sudden there is a U turn. Thats a disorientating thing. Ultimately a persons spiritual/faith convictions cannot be subverted and boxed out..so the laws will run into major problems if they continue in their current vein.

[leucippus]

Let me also say We are noone to tell God what he can and cant do..

Of course not.  I would never suggest any such thing.  I was suggesting that any doctrine that makes God out to be a stupid prejudice fool must obviously not be the word of God.

He Also really clearly laid it out in his word, which by the way for the record dosent come from men - its inspired of God and written by a ton of authors throughout different generations many of whom didnt have knowledge of he other's writings (or at least full knowledge) and yet somehow it agrees. 

Clearly?  I think if you read the history of how "The Bible" came to be you will clearly see that all of the stories that went into it were arbitrarily (and quite selectively) chosen by men.   I simply do not believe that those arbitrarily chosen stories are "the word of God".  I personally believe that to accept such a notion is utterly absurd.

You view the bible as "the word of God".  I do not.  So with that basic difference we are probably never going to agree on anything.

if you hear the voice of God telling you to call out to him for salvation then you need to do it...

The very fact that Christians believe that people need salvation is what makes Christians so dangerous.

[pianistimo]

the bible was written for 'doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness'  according to some of the NT writers.  and, if God's word is truth - it is teaching directly from God.

the first prophet that we are aware of is Moses - from whom we get the directive from God's own hands.  God himself wrote the 10 commandments on the tablets of stone.  ex. 32:16 and second tablets ex. 34:1.  these tablets contained the ten commandments - and also, God gave to moses the testimonies and judgements for israel as a nation.  they were to be a unique people and were given these law and testimonies to keep forever.  generally, people look to israel even today because of the finding of the dead sea scrolls which confirm the writings that the jews had previously - and authenticated it.

usually, the jews expounded the law and the prophets - and Jesus himself quoted from that when He lived.  the two commandments that He considered most important were quoted back to his 'flock' (to love God and love your neighbor as yourself) because they were already familiar with that part of the bible.  matt. 22:40.  paul went on to convince people after Christ died to realize that the law and the prophets foretold the coming of Jesus Christ (isaiah 53) and he preached to them from morning to evening acts 28:23 out of the law of moses and the prophets.

because of the detail and precision of the writing in the bible...there's not much to dispute.  the law that Christ was talking about having in one's heart - is the same as the ten commandments - and more precisely the two most important commands as 'fulling all the law and prophets.'  love.  the bible is written from this point of inspiration and all the books fully fit together, as pianowelsh pointed out, by this inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  there is no other book that could be premonitive, historic, and fortelling - in such a precise fashion.  on that alone - many have faith.  that Christ was foretold to come and many details were given in isaiah 53 about him and about his purpose.  also, handel wrote 'the messiah' on the basis of His destiny to be King and Messiah, and Lord of Lords. 

just because these books were put together for public consumption later - doesn't mean that when the books were individually written by scribes and the apostles (esp john) that they didn't have inspiration at the time they were written.  they did!  and, we are told in revelations not to change one jot or title - until all is fulfilled.  in fact, there is a curse on anyone who would change the words of the book (not just revelations - but the entire bible) rev. 22:19.  just as with deut. 4:2 'you shall not add to the word which i am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.'  (this was including the statutes and judgements to israel).  of course, today, we feel a certain freedom - but in the millenium it is said that God's law will be in people's hearts (so it will be known again).

'surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.  for what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the Lord our God whenever we call on Him?  or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgements as righteous as this whole law which i am setting before you today?'  deu. 4:7-8  we can trace the beginning of the law of the united states to the first publishing of the bible as one of the first acts of congress!