What is wrong with religious symbols?

[pianistimo]

for more on the canonization of the bible:

www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Bible/Bible_Canonization.html

[leucippus]

and, we are told in revelations not to change one jot or title - until all is fulfilled.  in fact, there is a curse on anyone who would change the words of the book

There is absolutely nothing in your entire lengthy post that rationally supports the idea that the bible is the word of god.  In fact, most of what you gave was just experts from the very book itself quoting from it like as if it is already established to be the word of god.  The fact of the matter is that it's all in your head.  It's all in what you choose to believe.  It's your "faith" to believe in a particular doctrine and you are supported in your belief by the many other individuals that make up your particular organized religion.

There are no rational reasons that can be given to believe a single word of it is the word of god.

Religions breed bigotry, prejudice and hate.  They are fundamentally a disease that has infected the spirit of mankind. They are pathetically disgusting superstitions left over from the dark ages.  Nothing good will ever come of them.  People who do good things in the name of religions would most likely do good things anyway.  All they need to do is believe in the goodness of mankind.  No need to bring superstition into the picture at all.

~~~

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

(Lyrics to "Imagine" by John Lennon) - If only men could believe in themselves.
 

[pianistimo]

people have believed in themselves up to this point of history - otherwise our governments would truly be 'under God.'  people are tired of wasteful spending, dishonesty, and untruthfulness.  if you say that we are experiencing heaven and there's no need for it - i think you are the one living in disillusionment.  i have not experienced heaven yet.  nor would i want to imagine their wouldn't be one.  at least, heaven on earth is not yet!

i think john lennon would see that the world IS becoming one - but under a spiritual influence pretty much the same as he was under.  a dark force.  one that caused him to want to commit suicide though he died of murder.

strawberry fields (forever) was connected sort of after the fact with a boy of eleven who died in strawberry fields after a bullycide.  he was tired of life.  depressing topics don't make good songs.

[leucippus]

people are tired of wasteful spending, dishonesty, and untruthfulness.

So what was your point?

We already have a Christian president and we are getting everything you mentioned here in abundance? 

Thus giving further support to the fact that religion is a farce and obviously doesn’t help things in the least.

[pianowelsh]

Im sorry leucippus - ive just realised i have been spelling your name incorrectly.. my apologies. Lets be clear mens wisdom and God's wisdom = Very different. God says your ways are not my ways and your thoughts are not my thoughts, you think im altogether like you, but im not!!! the foolishness of God is wiser than the most advanced wisdom of men. Put it simply we think we are wise - compare to God we is idiots! I dont know where you are getting the idea that God is prejudice???(please clarify) the scriptures say there is no partiality with god.  You know it dosent matter what any one of us were or are EVERYONE in the world sits under condemnation of God and because of the rebellion and hatred in men towards God the world is going to be done away with - it has a very limited shelf life. Noone is deserving of Gods mercy towards us noone is intrinsically worth saving from the mess that is the world. We are frankly all worthy of the trash can. BUT God in his wisdom NOT ours. decided he would relent and save those who would trust him from destruction.  This is why he sent Jesus (no other reason, Jesus didntneed to come to earth to show people how to live proper Or to teach God what its like to live on earth). He came to buy salvation for those who would believe. NB not everyone, those who would call on the name of Jesus... NOW this is going to present an issue for many here. Becuase at the same time as salvation is a gift to anyone and everyone (making it the most non-exclusive religion in the world)  it is also ONLY for those who believe Or more acturately those who will recieve the gift.  if I came to your party with a big present and you stopped me at the door and said - no thanks I dont want anything to do with you - in fact im not even sure you exist..and take your present with you. tell me wno is it that looks foolish?? I had every intention for you to enjoy my company and enjoy my present but you turned me away..I had no choice but to take my gift and leave you alone.   Similarly Jesus came to earth to accomplish salvation so that those who believe he is the son of God and trust him that the work he has done is enough to save them from the wages of sin and death would be saved..at the risk of being very un PC this means that he came to save people who are muslims, buddists, athiests, agnostics, nihilists, EVEN (shock horror) religious Christians.. the way is open to all the gift of salvation is there and yet many the bible says will refuse it and do refuse it. Just as in the example of me coming to your party with a present there are consequences of you not accepting Jesus's gift and as I eluded to at the beginning they are serious. How you can say this is dangerous?? Its dangerous for you and everyone NOT to consider it. In regards to a misunderstanding which seems to have come up earlier Christians arent BETTER than nonchristians as I said here all are worthy of judgement it is God's Grace(undeserved favour) that saves anyone. Its a bit like a free promotion in town when a company is giving away something on the street, most people will be skepitcal and not take it, some will take it and chuck it when the person who gave it isnt looking, because they really didnt want it. Its only the people who take it and use it who benefit. Now does that make the people who have recieved it better - No?!? They just responded to the offer. Gods love for us is way better than a store owner with a promotion and he desires that noone should perish, so Jesus like the store owner has paid the price and there is enough to let everyone who responds recieve the gift.  So God through his word says today is the day of salvation. The offer is on near you today, you CAN respond while there is opportunity, it wont always be there.

If people have genuine questions and issues with what is said ask.  I dont mind clarifying anything which isnt clear. just because I dont hold the same position as some of you dosent mean im against you - so there is really no reason to be bitter and insulting (that is directed at noone in particular). Forums are for discussion of ideas and sharing differences of opinion. so lets share them without rubbishing oneanothers input as it is infectious and rather grotesque.

[leucippus]

God says your ways are not my ways and your thoughts are not my thoughts,…

God says?  Again I need to point out that I don't believe that god has ever said anything to mankind via written words.  And I also don't believe that Jesus was God.

God is wiser than the most advanced wisdom of men.

I certainly agree with that, but I totally disagree that the bible has anything at all to do with God.

You know it dosent matter what any one of us were or are EVERYONE in the world sits under condemnation of God and because of the rebellion and hatred in men towards God the world is going to be done away with

I'm sorry to hear that you have such a dismal picture of God and mankind.  I think much more highly of both.

Noone is deserving of Gods mercy towards us noone is intrinsically worth saving from the mess that is the world.

I'm also sorry to hear that you have such a pathetic view of mankind to believe that they are undeserving of anything.

(just for the record "noone" isn't a word.   It's actually two words "no one") 
Sorry, but that particular error is a pet peeve of mine just thought I'd point it out.

We are frankly all worthy of the trash can. BUT God in his wisdom NOT ours. decided he would relent and save those who would trust him from destruction. 

You don't trust in God at all.  You put all your faith in doctrines written by men, and sadly those doctrines paint a very ugly picture of both mankind and of God.

This is why he sent Jesus (no other reason, Jesus didntneed to come to earth to show people how to live proper Or to teach God what its like to live on earth). He came to buy salvation for those who would believe. NB not everyone, those who would call on the name of Jesus... NOW this is going to present an issue for many here. Becuase at the same time as salvation is a gift to anyone and everyone (making it the most non-exclusive religion in the world)  it is also ONLY for those who believe

Those who believe in what?  The dogmatic belief's that you have been brainwashed to believe?   

I believe that if Jesus were here today, he would denounce organized religions (Especially Christianity) and he would be very much in agreement with what John Lennon was attempting to propose in his song "Imagine".

Forums are for discussion of ideas and sharing differences of opinion. so lets share them without rubbishing oneanothers input as it is infectious and rather grotesque.

Exactly,

I'm telling you what I believe (i.e. that organized dogmatic religions are not the way to know god)

You're telling me what you believe (i.e. that YOUR chosen dogmatic religion is the ONLY way to know god)

The mere fact that we are stating our individual beliefs necessarily appears as "rubbishing" the other's. 

If you don't care to discuss your faith on a public forum why bother bringing it up in the first place on a public forum? 

It's true that you brought up the topic of "Religious Symbols" and perhaps did not want to get into the topic of what's behind the symbols.  But how can we not go there?  It is, in fact, what the symbols represent that give importance to the issue.

My whole point, which fits in perfectly with your topic is that, religious symbols do indeed represent dogmatic thinking.

You may sit in a restaurant and publicly pray, or display a cross, or whatever other religious symbols you care to publicly display.   To me they just shouting out, "I believe in dogma!".  In other words, I don't seem them as having anything at all to do with God.  They are just symbols that shout out what you personally would like to believe.

You may look at me sitting at another table doing nothing at all that appears to have spiritual significance.  Yet I may actually have a much deeper spirituality that you will ever know.  I personally see religious symbols and public actions of prayer as the external signs of hypocrites who most likely won't actually act in a loving way toward their fellow man.  So because of this I've come to dislike people who flaunt their religious symbols in public.

Did you know that Jesus actually told people to pray in private and not make a public spectacle of themselves when they pray like the priests do?  Yep he said that.

Funny how the so-called Christians seldom behave the way that Jesus suggested they should behave. 

I see the public display of dogmatic religious symbols as the act of egotists who are more concerned with pushing their beliefs onto others than they are with getting to actually know the loving spirituality of the universe.

That's not meant to "rubbish" them.  It's simply my honest perception of them based on observing their hypocritical behavior.  And this is why I don't like to see people display religious symbols in public.  What they should be displaying instead is simply the LOVE that is supposed to behind their religion.  But you seldom see them display that.

[pianistimo]

leucippus, i agree with much of what you say - because the christian process is over a lifetime.  we don't suddenly become converted and act that much differently until we are probably in our 60's or 70's.  i can't say why this is...but perhaps it is allowing God to do the work and not rely so much on ourselves when we are willing and able - and think that we are correctly reading the Word of God.  in truth, we may be miserable specimens of christianity.  but, to God - we are very important.  just as with children.  you don't toss them out - even if you are forgiving the 70x7 sin. 

i think what makes us different is repentance.  we make a mistake.  we acknowledge it.  we repent.  and we try to do better.  it is a constant process of renewal.  but, we know - in our heads, that God heard our prayers and is willing to continue to work with us when we try.  it is an issue not of perfection but willingness. 

and, even if some cling to symbols or don't - as you say - it all ends up being fulfilled in love and not a symbol.  a symbol is a thing.  love is a sort of unspoken connection with God that no symbol can replace.  also, many symbols have a pagan origin that most people aren't even aware of.  i don't think God holds people responsible for what they are not aware of.

[pianistimo]

i also believe that God quietly works with some people on His own.  i do not doubt, leucippus, that you distinguish between true christians and false christians.  i hope, for your salvation, that it proves a worthy route to finding out if christianity is true at all.  what convinces some (like me) is to find so much order in the universe, and in our own lives.  things that seem to be 'preordained.'  and, the carefulness of the love of God.  in my own experiences it has been far beyond my wildest dreams.  all of us desire to be loved - and yet our parents and spouses cannot fulfil every space of our hearts.  when we take time during the day to turn our thoughts to God Himself - He seems to beam down as though we are perceiving God in His realness and technicolor - by talking to our thoughts.  this may seem bizarre to some - but it is real for others.  we have so many emotions.  so whatever emotion we are having (at the moment or on that day) we express to Him without reserve.  it might even be anger at someone or something that is bothering us.  we 'let it out.'  after praying about things - our nature seems more peaceful and calm because of trusting that God will take care of everything that we have discussed.  i think of God as not only a praiseworthy Being, but a Being who understands better than any living person our intimate self.  whether we are self-righteous, or too humble - he can lower us gradually - or build us up gradually -but he never works from hate.  He is always gentle as a parent - and lately i am realizing also as a lover.  when we love Him and His truth - we are allowed small glimpses of the joy that is a reality to all those who are 'born again' of spirit.  it is like when you hear a wonderful piece of music.  your heart leaps.  just as john the baptists' mother felt the baby leap in her womb when she met mary.  there is something innately energetic about the Spirit of God.  it revives us when we feel basically dead or like nothing.  you can have even the worst possible of experiences - and feel the joy of the Spirit.  it transcends what is here on earth.

ps i wish to add that christians rarely doubt one another.  that is because we each know that we are responsible to God alone and that He is our judge.  so, even if we don't believe someone is - we are less likely to judge them openly because God might judge us the same way.  also, we hope for everyone to come to a knowledge of God - so it would be at cross purpose to wish someone's damnation.

[pianistimo]

somehow, tonight, i must be too talkative or soemthing.  this whole thing reminds me of when Peter wanted to walk on the water like Jesus Christ.  so, he walks a bit and then looks down.  it's kind of humorous - but all of us are like that.  how can we not be.  to experience the divine is mysterious.

[pianowelsh]

Im very secure in my faith thanks very much. Nor do I have any problem sharing it with you or anyone who will listen. In fact I consider it a privelidge.  However I believe you may be speaking out of turn to say ' you dont trust in God atall. you put your faith in the doctrines of men'  It is absolutely impossible for you to make such a judgement because what you are proposing is a purely spiritual aspect which is non tangible to the human eye.  I agree that there must be such a relationship But for me that is expressed and supported by the teachings of scripture.  Take away the bible I still have a relationship with God (a direct phone line as someone mentioned) but He has expressed himself through his word and that is why  am so passionate about scripture. you dont have to agree. I agree with you on one point - if jesus were to come today he would do away with all organised religion.. we would all be on our faces in worship of him 'at his name every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord'. Some will greet him as saviour, saved by grace and totally unable to boast,  others will cringe before a righteous judge, facing condemnation.  Anyway this has got way off topic.  My origional question was to do with peoples right or not to display outward symbols of their faith. Without retribution. Would seem its not going to happen anytime soon.

[ahinton]

Im very secure in my faith thanks very much. Nor do I have any problem sharing it with you or anyone who will listen. In fact I consider it a privelidge.  However I believe you may be speaking out of turn to say ' you dont trust in God atall. you put your faith in the doctrines of men'  It is absolutely impossible for you to make such a judgement because what you are proposing is a purely spiritual aspect which is non tangible to the human eye.  I agree that there must be such a relationship But for me that is expressed and supported by the teachings of scripture.  Take away the bible I still have a relationship with God (a direct phone line as someone mentioned) but He has expressed himself through his word and that is why  am so passionate about scripture. you dont have to agree. I agree with you on one point - if jesus were to come today he would do away with all organised religion.. we would all be on our faces in worship of him 'at his name every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord'. Some will greet him as saviour, saved by grace and totally unable to boast,  others will cringe before a righteous judge, facing condemnation.  Anyway this has got way off topic.  My origional question was to do with peoples right or not to display outward symbols of their faith. Without retribution. Would seem its not going to happen anytime soon.

Despite what I have written (and it was I who questioned - and indeed still do question - your alleged ability [and/or indeed anyone else's] to "hear" words directly from God), I do not take the view that displaying symbols of religious faith in the ways discussed above are necessarily to be discouraged; much nevertheless depends on the extent of blatancy of those displays (and in some cases must depend also on a general view as to whether such displays may affect an employee's ability to honour his/hjer contract of employment), but I do not think that the case, for example, of the Brisith Airways employee holds any credibility whatsoever. There happens to be a chain of wooden rosary beads in my house, just inside the front door. I am not a Christian. I am not, however, anti-Christian either. No Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jew or Christian - still less Buddhist - has ever expressed objection to the presence of this (and I wouldn't take especially kindly to anyone who did). Whatever my beliefs, I know well that people who come here may not share them and/or may have others to which they are entitled.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

agreed about kindness.  it's really a matter of respect.  what other people believe is their own business - and if your expression of yourself and your beliefs is mostly in your own house - noone will really fight over semantics anyways.  if you are overt - as with an employee of an airlines - it may distract people from questions about business to religion.  usually airline employees have a dress code.  perhaps the attitude of the employee to customers would reflect on her christianity more - but, i understand about freedoms being taken away.  personally, i'd prefer the 10 commandments left around county courthouses...but i wasn't going to go down to alabama and sit there to make sure it happened.  i think that people have a right to go into a courthouse believing that they will get equal opportunity under the law.