Can four bars tell a story?

[pianogeek_cz]

This question arose in the What I learned during practice today...

Can a Czerny four-bar excercise and similar nano-pieces tell a story?*

I'd say it can. More less any progression of notes can tell a story. Some better than others, of course, but basically, it's a matter of imagination... The story might not be long, but does a story need to?

To elaborate: "I'm going to play the piano" (quoted as an example of what can be told via a 4-bar excercise in the aforementioned thread) is a very simple sentence. But it contains LOTS of information. Now, what's the emotional content of the sentence? Determination. I've made a descision and now you've revealed it to the world. Everybody hear, I'm going to play the piano.
It also means that I'm going to start just about now, after I've played this excercise. Therefore, I think this wasn't really "playing the piano". But why would I bother, then, to put a messagei into the excercise? Evidently, I'm not very sure what "playing the piano" actually means. Am I a professional, then? No. Am I a total beginner? Probably not, as I can put a message even into some boring Czerny. So that makes me some intermediate amateur, probably in the late teens, since I bother to put a message in the boring Czerny and therefore should well be after the stage of rejecting anything that doesn't sound Chopinisque or have at least four voices. I'm also probably an extrovert, since it somehow matters to me to say that I'm going to play. No closet pianist, then. I might actually like performing and at the same time acknowledge the importance of technical excercises. Well, that points to a person with a method, maybe aspiring for some higher musical education? Etc., etc. I'm sure you could come up with your own ideas of what the story behind that sentence is...

So, all in all, the 4-bar excercise can tell quite a bit.

Does it make sense, or is it an incoherent babble? Thoughts on this topic?

____________________________________________________________
*Thal disclaimer: a four-bar excercise does -not- mean ANYTHING close to alcohol consumption!

[asyncopated]

I claimed the opposite, so i suppose i  better make a stand. 

Firstly, I have to say this, I have nothing against czerny, well, not as much as i have against hannon anyway.

I suppose firstly lets put this into context.  You can extend or correct me if you see fit.  The first claim that you've made is to the effect that practicing czerny is good, in particular the 125 (?) exercises.  So, they are not too bad, I have to agree. I just said that i don't really like to practice these that much because they are too short, and you can't tell a story with most of these exercises (of course with the last few, they do become substantially longer and there is some content).

I suppose that first we need to difine a similar meanings for words like "story
, "sentence", "word" etc. in the context of music.  Sure you can say something with four bars.  That's i definately agree with,  if you take out four important bars in a great work, it work just falls to pieces.  Some how, it will not be ther same.

However, my current claim is that you can't weave a story with something so short.  So I suppose the question arises -- what do i mean by "story".  Here is more or less what I mean, its a structure where you set up what you want to say, there is some sort of plot twist (development) or climax or point, and an ending. 

To given you a few examples, take a simple ABA form.  Many great works follow this form.   I'm sure you have a few examples in mind, without me having to point out any.  In this form, some kind of plot device has already been injected.  Hence the B section.  it's usually a development or a contrasting section.  In fact, the sonata form is loosely based on an ABA form. 

Ok but sonatas tend to be long.  Even the early scalartti or haydn sonatas were about 2 pages long at it's shortest.  Do we have examples of short pieces or excerpt that have still have some "story" built in them.  In fact, I think we do.

To give you some examples, consider schumann's kinderszenen or carnival, or some of the chopin preludes.  Some are just 16 bars long.  There is a still usually some element of stating a main idea, having a development, or climax and a conclusion.    One can argue that these works were ment to be played as a cycle.   Fair enough, but each little exerpt is a small narration on its own, and is a self contained entity.  Btw, when schumann first introduced this type of writing (picture music) the was a big uproar about the form -- at the time the sonata form still rained supreme.

Ok so can we go shorter than that, still have some sort of point or character or interesting content?  In other words, it is possible to write what is equivalent of a musical haiku?  I can't think of any at the moment, but if you find something I will be interested to know.

Interestingly enough, with words and poetry this form is not really uncommon.  Many societies have develop an intellectual sense for "compressed" poetry.  Relating a deep and meaningful fable with as few words as possible.  In chinese, they were very found of this during the tang period, and thus have a classic work called the 300 tang poems
https://www.afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?l=Tangshi&no=1

In japan, as mention previously, there is the development of haiku as well as zen koans.

Haiku
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5910.0.html

Koans
https://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html

Is it possible to create a similar form for music?  Of course there will be problems -- how does one perform these pieces if they are so compressed/short?  Does this mean that there is no place for meaningful music to be so short?

Any thoughts welcomed.

[hyrst]

I think you are both saying the same thing, essentially. 

Language is very contextualised - we know what someone is communciating because we share both an understanding of the symbol system (sounds or written figures) and of the context (cultural, contextual, historical, etc).  Therefore, as pianogeek said, we can say volumes in a few words - but whether or not someone else understands what we are saying depends on whether they share the background of what is unsaid. 

Perhaps we don't need someome else to understand.  Therefore it doesn't matter what we say because we know what we mean at that point in time.  If we want someone else to understand, we have to make sure they share as much of the context as needed for this to happen.

This seems to be where Asyncopated is coming from.  To communicate in music in a way that is meaningful, just as in language, we have to give a certain amount of context to our audience so they can follow, they can grasp the meaning.  Harmonies provide context, the surrounding bars or movements provide context. 

I think we can communicate things in single notes or chords - e.g. the difference between a major and minor triad.  But, this can only be meaningful if the listener can identify feeling sad, thoughtful. or whatever, from their own experience - their own context. 

Sometimes we need to say more, to use more bars of music if you like, so that we can 'set our audience' up for the point that we want to make - the climax of the plot, as Asyncopated explained so well. 

I think this is where it becomes harder to say something when you use very repetitive 'pieces', like Hannon and Czerny.  It's like saying the same sentence over and over - your listener has no more idea what you were trying to say in the last bar then they did in the first.  (You can see I am not a fan of these exercises as well!)  Of course you could be communicating that you have excellent articulation, or you might have one interesting thought, or even that you are bored - the idea is to find something that is worth saying, that will give your audience jsut a little more understanding or wisdom.

[asyncopated]

I think this is where it becomes harder to say something when you use very repetitive 'pieces', like Hannon and Czerny. ....  Of course you could be communicating that you have excellent articulation, or you might have one interesting thought, or even that you are bored - the idea is to find something that is worth saying, that will give your audience jsut a little more understanding or wisdom.

I just remembered I was listening to some Phillip Glass this evening .  He's great!

[ksnmohan]

Hi pianogeek_cz!

Yes, yes and yes!.

For that matter even 4 Notes can tell a story (you have touched on that as well in your very first mail).

Most compositions are created from just the four or five notes one hears in  traditional/folk music.  Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Bartok all formed the core of many of their major pieces that way.

Some of today's Pop hits come from 4 or 5 notes appearing in classical music.

So if just 4 notes can tell a story, where is the doubt on 4 bars?

Best Wishes!

Prof K S (Mohan) Narayanan
Musicologist, Composer, Teacher
Chennai, India

[asyncopated]

Hi pianogeek_cz!

Yes, yes and yes!.

For that matter even 4 Notes can tell a story (you have touched on that as well in your very first mail).

Most compositions are created from just the four or five notes one hears in  traditional/folk music.  Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Bartok all formed the core of many of their major pieces that way.

Some of today's Pop hits come from 4 or 5 notes appearing in classical music.

So if just 4 notes can tell a story, where is the doubt on 4 bars?

Best Wishes!

Prof K S (Mohan) Narayanan
Musicologist, Composer, Teacher
Chennai, India

I think there is some miscommunication here.  We we say four bars of four note we mean EXACTLY four bars or for notes.  Not like a bach motif where the motif consist of a small number of notes, it is stated and developed. 

If you say for notes can tell a story, please give me an example of exactly four notes and what story it tells.  I don't know of any (official) piece that short.

For example here is a short story

E3 (quaver) F3 (dotted quaver) A3 (minum) rest (crochet) C4 (semi breve). 

This tells a story of a hero dying.  Why ?? I don't know I just made it up.

[ksnmohan]

Hi pianogeek_ez,

Your mail.  I also agree with the miscommunication, but that does not matter.
Your "story" of a hero dying is not bad at all. I have to look into some Chopin's scores - and am sure to find a story in 4 notes - e.g. birds in migration or a submarine sinking.

My understanding and usage of the word "story"  was in its larger sense  - the story behind the evolution or composition of  a particular piece of music. A classic example as you have stated was the BACH motif with its 4 notes B flat,  A , C, B natural (H) as a base for many works.

Keep up the "story telling"!

Regards
Prof Narayanan







 

[loops]

I was going to say 2 things. one was about haiku poetry.  Not sure that is a good analogy
as a word has a huge context of imagery, connotations etc attached to it. A musical phrase
won't have that, unless you put togethr 4 very well known one-bar-long phrases.

the other was about a motto used by actors, "there are no small parts, only small actors".
So, can you say, "!there are no small pieces, only small pianists"?
It reminds me of a Monty Pytjhon(?) sketch where an actor was saying the one line
of Shakespeare in N thousand different ways. And the classic, "what's that on the road, a head?"
(I'll stop now while I'm a head  )

[asyncopated]

...
the other was about a motto used by actors, "there are no small parts, only small actors".
So, can you say, "!there are no small pieces, only small pianists"?
It reminds me of a Monty Pytjhon(?) sketch where an actor was saying the one line
of Shakespeare in N thousand different ways. And the classic, "what's that on the road, a head?"
(I'll stop now while I'm a head  )

lol, thank you for your insight