~ Teaching Eccentric Students ~

[leucippus]

Note: For the sake of always typing him/her, I'm just going to refer to the hypothetical student as "she".

~~~

What would you do if a student came to you with a notebook full of pieces that were far beyond her skill level.  She sat down with you and showed you that she could play the first few measures of each piece (maybe 5 or 6 measures).    Some of them she played HT, others she could only play the right and left hand parts separately. 

She is asking solely for help with technical abilities, and she's not interested in paying for instructions in musicality.

You also noticed that she has actually changed some of the notes on the score especially with respect to certain chords.  When you asked her about this she says that she prefers to play it that way and this is how she would like to learn it.

She cannot sight-read music fluently and says that she has no interest in learning to do that.  All she is interested in is comments, suggestions and possible exercises to help her learn the best technique to accomplish what she's trying to achieve. 

Furthermore, she says that she's not the slightest bit worried about how long it will taker her to learn these pieces and that for right now, her only interest is with cleaning up the measures that she has already learned, and she would like some tips on how to best put the measures that she has learned HS together.

Finally, she declines any offer to learn entire lesser pieces as "exercise" and she says that the only exercises she would be interested in are exercises that are directly made from the actual pieces she's trying to play, like possibly scales and or arpeggios, that sort of thing.  She doesn't want to waste her time learning entire simple pieces that she has no desire to add to her repertoire.

Would you be willing to help a student like this achieve her goals in the way that she wants to go about it? 

Or would you tell her that you don’t teach that way and politely send her off to learn on her own?

[jpianoflorida]

sounds familiar!  I have taken students like that before and it didn't work out! you be the judge but what happens is you are no longer the teacher! they are the teacher and you are the paid help because they aren't going to do anything other than what THEY WANT!  so you have to decide if you are willing to deal with it.

[ada]

Well it depends how badly you need the money, doesn't it? 

If her approach is totally abhorrent to you on a pedagogical and philosophical level, just suggest to her that you aren't the right teacher for her and perhaps she should find someone else who is happy to teach according to her ideas.

If, on the other hand, you view this as job and yourself as her "employee", just do the best you can within the scope of what she wants to do and think about the money. However you'll need to make clear that in your expert opinion this isn't the optimal way to go about things.

I am not a qualified piano teacher but I am currently teaching an 8 year old beginner to play and I've taught other subjects at university level.

Hope you find this helpful!
 

[Bob]

What about breaking the piece up into parts that can be exercises?  It could take years, but... it's still the same piece that way, sort of.

I might take it out of interest.  Advise against it, but if the student is willing to pay... could be interesting.  You might be able to turn the student around later anyway.

[lostinidlewonder]

First of all I would try and tell her that if you want to increase your technical capabilities at the piano you must learn many peices of music. One very difficult piece or a piece way above your standard WILL NOT improve you at a fantastic rate. However studying smaller pieces and being able to play them well will!

I would most definately work with this hypothetical students on the pieces she wants to, but since I am the teacher and have at least some say about the learning process, I would force her to do other easier music as well, otherwise she can find another teacher. I have never had a student who would be as pig headed as this hypothetical student (although I have one student who will ONLY play Bach and nothing else, but that is different than havng an addiction with just one or a few overly hard pieces). It is almost as if they know that they want so why would they need a teacher to guide them? A teacher cannot magically pass thee golden rod of technique and make the student play music much higher than their current standard. You basically study with a teacher so they can reffer you to repetoire as which they determine will be best to develop your technique.

For my advanced students I do let them choose what they want because they have the right to! They can sight read well, they have a good learning rate, still I will target factors which increase their learning rate all the time (as we all have to do!). Students who have an advanced grasp on how to learn the piano also have learnt a lot of easier music to get to their standard. I am yet to meet a student whos first piece on the piano is something very hard. It is like trying to teach grade 1 primary school kids to study quantum physics.

[pianistimo]

i am not as patient as lostinidle - but he is right!  if you give a little sometimes, as a teacher, you can get a little more flexibility from the student.  i would start with comfort and ease at the piano - and then, a few scales.  if that didn't scare her off - i'd give her a few exercises- chord patterns.  if that didn't scare her off - then i'd say - ok.  let's take a look at book 1 sightreading/melodies/technique. 

AFTER the lesson - let's take a look at these other pieces a little.  maybe even 15-20 minutes of freebee stuff.  i just like teaching - but not at the expense of learning.

[sarahlein]

Would you be willing to help a student like this achieve her goals in the way that she wants to go about it? 

Yes

The student you refer to is most definitely not a young child. My guess is that she is an adult with clear goals in mind and she should be treated as such.

You say, she

... came to you with a notebook full of pieces....

well , let's see what is in that notebook. It's full of pieces, surely some are technically easier than others. One of the first things I'd do will be to arrange them in a progressive order-who knows, perhaps they already are

She is asking solely for help with technical abilities, and she's not interested in paying for instructions in musicality.

Understood!
As a teacher I know that musicality is what determines which movement/s (technic) must be used but I'll keep this to myself. For now.
The time will come when she will ask why. Why must I do it this way,or why this works and this doesn't.  Well when that time comes I might elaborate on the answer-You see she can't appreciate the solution until she understands the problem  -sound familiar?

You also noticed that she has actually changed some of the notes on the score especially with respect to certain chords.  When you asked her about this she says that she prefers to play it that way and this is how she would like to learn it.

That's ok, as long as she can provide a valid reason for doing that.

She cannot sight-read music fluently and says that she has no interest in learning to do that.

I don't see why this has to be a problem. Sight-reading will improve as we go along.

All she is interested in is comments, suggestions and possible exercises to help her learn the best technique to accomplish what she's trying to achieve.

That's what I do best 

Furthermore, she says that she's not the slightest bit worried about how long it will taker her to learn these pieces and that for right now, her only interest is with cleaning up the measures that she has already learned, and she would like some tips on how to best put the measures that she has learned HS together.

excellent!

Finally, she declines any offer to learn entire lesser pieces as "exercise" and she says that the only exercises she would be interested in are exercises that are directly made from the actual pieces she's trying to play, like possibly scales and or arpeggios, that sort of thing.  She doesn't want to waste her time learning entire simple pieces that she has no desire to add to her repertoire.

My thoughts exactly!

So leucippus when should we say we start the lessons?

[pianistimo]

imo, if an adult is truly a beginner - which most don't realize they are - because they can only play four bars and get no further in advanced music - they don't realize the speed at which they can progress if taken back a few notches. 

for my own students - if i find a level (say level 5-6) is better than level I - fine.  but, usually A LOT has been skipped over to make them 'feel good.'  i don't care if students 'feel good.'  i hope they experience the pain and sufferring of a good practice session - and then - enjoy the joys of the work at some later date.

it took me three years as a youngester to get proficient at sight reading.  THREE years.  now, an adult can do this in ONE year.  but, they have to be consistent.  also, sight reading is only 10% of a lesson (or less).  technique (exercises/scales) is also another 10-20%.  music terms 5% - 10%.  understanding harmony/theory 10%  (if you don't understand this - you are wasting time playing - it helps with memory and analyzing the forms of what you are playing so you can remember it) and just playing A LOT (rest of %)- easier pieces that you FINISH.  this is much better, imo, than playing for a year something you never really 'get.'

[jpianoflorida]

for my own students - if i find a level (say level 5-6) is better than level I - fine.  but, usually A LOT has been skipped over to make them 'feel good.'  i don't care if students 'feel good.'  i hope they experience the pain and sufferring of a good practice session - and then - enjoy the joys of the work at some later date.

Hope you aren't serious?   pain and suffering of a good practice session?   I wouldn't have any students at all with that approach! you must have kids whose parents will make them do lessons no matter what! A lot of kids today if they say "I don't want to do it anymore" then Mom pulls them out! At least the area I'm in.

[pianistimo]

when i was teaching - i rarely had any cancellations.  usually, even if a student didn't fully 'get' what we went over the previous week - i'd repeat the stuff and not make it painful in the sense of meanness or anything. 

students like the feeling of being proficient at something much more than playing difficult music.  when they start realizing this - they progress to the difficult music in no time.

i've sort of copied what my prof. in college did.  he gave us a lot of work.  perhaps 2 hours of practice each day.  there were different categories of things that we worked on.  i remember sightreading bach chorales (i'd start adults with easy stuff first and work up to that), working on czerny - the school of velocity and hanon's the virtuoso pianist (learning scales at one octave, two octaves, three, and four and finally five - at the fastest speed),  chords, five-finger exercises (and variations and various composer's exercises), many many different types of composer's works (from baroque to twentieth century) - and he also helped us with performance as we had a master class to perform what we practiced every friday.  even if it was only a portion of what we learned - we performed it.  this REALLY helped get over jitters and PRACTICE memorizing.  if youhave no deadlines - you just sort of put it off sometimes.  recitals are really helpful.

the students that i've had - had really motivated parents.  they always brought them on time.  and, even if they ate in the kitchen - (say a sis and bro) and switched places to do  homework and eat - they were always there.  of course, with adults - you don't have to worry about time management so much - and the lessons are more casual and informal and not so much 'you must do this or must do that.'  a suggestion is made and hopefully the adult student takes it and practices the amount that is suggested.  usually more.

[pianistimo]

music, to me, is like a science.  you have a lot of very interconnected things.  so if you only know about one area - then you might need to boon up on another area.  i think what turns adults off is that they think they might fail at something.  to compensate for this type of worry - i always break things into very very small chunks and then start gradually adding more each lesson. 

when i say very very small - i mean very very small.  but, proficient playing of those small chunks.  also, i'm not a perfectionistic * - (excepting that i try to be in my own playing) and i oftentimes work through one or two items at a time and not try to overwhelm students with many thoughts at once.  this seems to be a good thing to keep students as well. 

just as if you are teaching chess- you don't teach all the rules in one day.  and, i don't see piano as 'rules' but rather generalized guidelines.  i have a plan - is what i am saying.  i follow this plan to get results.  the results are that a student does not pass to another level without knowing everything about that level.

if they are at level 8 and know nothing about the inside workings of the piano and what the damper pedal does - we go back and explain so they understand more about the instrument itself and what it is capable of.  sometimes students teach me.  i learn from a lot from each student.  and, i think piano lessons are ultimately a way to share.  if you learn piano only to play for yourself - it's kinda selfish, imo.  but, if the goal is to share music with others - there are PLENTY of venues.  retirement homes especially!  and, student/teacher duets are fun.

[jpianoflorida]

pianoistimo..i like what you have to say...i hope you didn't take my comments wrong...what i meant was most of the parents I deal with if the kids say " i don't like it, it's too hard, etc etc" they will just pull them out!   I hate to generalize but that is somewhat the "modern" trend with a lot of parents! I wish it wasn't ..they are some kids that really really need to be pushed and pushed and made to follow thru, unfortunately for me those are the parents that have spoiled little johnny and johnny decides what johnny wants to do--so I either try to somehow get thru to them or give up and I don't like to ever give up.

[pianistimo]

i value what you say very much, too, and feel that you are doing a good job to keep their interest peaked.  it's a fine balance.  sometimes we can become too harsh without meaning to - so if a student is having trouble balancing homework and piano - i usually acede too.  but, in the summer - it's probably a good idea to give them more to practice on.  and, vacations!  guess we just maximize the time available.

[leucippus]

So leucippus when should we say we start the lessons?

Yes, I am the hypothetical student.   And based on what you've posted I'd say that we should start lessons ASAP.  I'm glad to hear that there are actually teachers out there who can genuinely work with an adult student.  Some of the other posts leave me with the impression that many teachers can't think outside of the institutionalized box.

The student you refer to is most definitely not a young child. My guess is that she is an adult with clear goals in mind and she should be treated as such.

Exactly, and I would want a teacher who recognizes that and respects it, not one who will view me as being pig-headed and pompous.  The latter is a sure-fire way to begin an adversarial relationship.   I don't want to have an adversarial relationship with my teacher.  I want to work with a teacher who feels that we are a team working toward the same goals.   I want a teacher who values mutual respect and doesn't feel a need to have an authoritarian view of things. 

well , let's see what is in that notebook. It's full of pieces, surely some are technically easier than others. One of the first things I'd do will be to arrange them in a progressive order-who knows, perhaps they already are

Yes, this is really one of the very first questions I would want to hear from a potential teacher.  All the others are already going off half-cock in a defensive posture and they don’t even know what's in the notebook yet!  They're more interested in building an adversarial relationship with the student that establishes that they are in charge and the student is stupid.

As a teacher I know that musicality is what determines which movement/s (technic) must be used but I'll keep this to myself. For now.
The time will come when she will ask why. Why must I do it this way, or why this works and this doesn't.  Well when that time comes I might elaborate on the answer-You see she can't appreciate the solution until she understands the problem  -sound familiar?

Of course.   And this is perfect, because by the time you get to this point you will have already established a friendly team-based relationship with the student and the student will be very open to your mentoring by this time. I'm also quite confident that much progress would have been made prior to getting to this point as well.

I don't see why this has to be a problem. Sight-reading will improve as we go along.

That's the student's feeling too.  It's not that the student has a mental block against sight-reading.  It just that the student feels that sight-reading will come along naturally over time so let's just focus on other techniques during lessons and let the student deal with learning to sight-read on his/her own time.

That's what I do best    excellent! My thoughts exactly!

These comments all had to do with creating exercises from the actual pieces, working with scales and arpeggios, and not being overly-anxious to move too quickly.

Hearing a teacher embrace these concepts is music to my ears.  This is a teacher who knows how to teach efficiently without having to resort to any standard institutionalized path.  Let's focus on precisely what the student wants to learn and deal with reaching those goal specifically.  So what if the student isn't learning every possible nuance along the way?  That's not the students goal, the student made that clear at the very beginning.  A teacher who understands this approach is well suited to working with individuals on a mature adult level and will ultimately build up a friendly "team" spirit between the teacher and student.  This teacher/student relationship has potential!

Those teachers who resort to becoming defensive about it and immediately start taking an authoritarian stance are displaying the mentally of an institutionalize approach where the teacher teaches a "program" and the student just follows the teachers lead.  I don't believe that attitude is conducive to teaching adults who have specific goals in mind.   

In short, I would gladly hire a teacher like sarahlein, but I would be very reluctant to waste my time and money on teachers who want to ignore what I'm trying to do in favor of some standard institutionalized approach.  That's simply not what I'm looking for.  I'm looking for a very special unique teacher who can think outside of the institutionalized box.  I'm glad to know that there are such teachers out there.  But they are rare, and hard to find.

Sarahlein is precisely the type of teacher that I'm seeking. 

[jpianoflorida]

you also have to remember that a teacher should be honest with the student..and if the teacher feels that what the student wants to do isn't in their best interest, then the teacher should say so.   If i go to a mechanic and say I want to get the battery fixed, that's all I want to do, he tells me it's not the battery, it's the alternator and I say "I only want the battery", guess what happens? now some of you will say that isn't a good analogy and maybe it's not the best but think about that before you criticize it.

ultimate goal: I want to play these pieces in my notebook...(need to work on what is necessary to play these pieces, maybe not just "these pieces"-I need my teachers knowledge and input)

ultimate goal: I want my car to run(need to do what is necessary to get it running, maybe not just what I think I need...I need my mechanics input)

[leucippus]

you also have to remember that a teacher should be honest with the student..and if the teacher feels that what the student wants to do isn't in their best interest, then the teacher should say so.   

I didn't see anything dishonest in Sarahlein's approach.

At least Sarahlein is starting off with a very positive approach that creates a friendly and trusting teacher/student relationship.  Your approach, on the other hand, is very argumentative, authoritarian, and suggestive that you only know one way to skin a cat.  That's not the type of teacher/student relationship that I'm willing to pay for with my money.

I also disagree with your battery analogy because I know of people who have learned to play difficult pieces well without having to learn a lot of simpler pieces.  So why would I want to hire a teacher who's going to argue against what I already know to be true?   

The bottom line is that Sarahlein already has me signed up for lessons while you are still arguing with me.   I don't want a teacher who's going to argue with me.  I want a teacher who's going to give it a shot with a positive attitude.   It's as simple as that.

[pianistimo]

words come back to haunt people, you know.  how many successful pianists have you talked to in your life that started out playing difficult music ('far beyond skill level' - to quote you) and progressed from there?  i haven't talked to any.

[jpianoflorida]

I didn't see anything dishonest in Sarahlein's approach.

At least Sarahlein is starting off with a very positive approach that creates a friendly and trusting teacher/student relationship.  Your approach, on the other hand, is very argumentative, authoritarian, and suggestive that you only know one way to skin a cat.  That's not the type of teacher/student relationship that I'm willing to pay for with my money.

I also disagree with your battery analogy because I know of people who have learned to play difficult pieces well without having to learn a lot of simpler pieces.  So why would I want to hire a teacher who's going to argue against what I already know to be true?   

The bottom line is that Sarahlein already has me signed up for lessons while you are still arguing with me.   I don't want a teacher who's going to argue with me.  I want a teacher who's going to give it a shot with a positive attitude.   It's as simple as that.

wow...not sure how you got that from my post....argumentative ?  sorry for just expressing my opinion.....why would you think I"m arguing with you? you posted wanting opinions and now i"m arguing because i gave you one..hmnn    Also, I want a teacher that will be honest with me and tell me and tell me what i need to know and not just WHAT I WANT TO HEAR.

[leucippus]

how many successful pianists have you talked to in your life that started out playing difficult music

But that's just the point.  Where was it ever suggested that the goal should be to become a successful pianist?

The only goal the student mentioned was to learn the pieces that are in the notebook.  Nothing more.

[leucippus]

wow...not sure how you got that from my post....argumentative ?  sorry for just expressing my opinion.....why would you think I"m arguing with you? you posted wanting opinions and now i"m arguing because i gave you one..hmnn   

But you misunderstand.  I'm not suggesting that you are arguing with me.  I'm suggesting that you would be arguing with the hypothetical student.

Although, in short there would be no argument because you'd just say that you aren't interested in teaching in that situation and the student wouldn't be interested in learning the way you want to teach so you would just part ways.  And that's fine. 

I'm not arguing with that.   But I do disagree with your battery analogy. 

[jpianoflorida]

But you misunderstand.  I'm not suggesting that you are arguing with me.  I'm suggesting that you would be arguing with the hypothetical student.

Although, in short there would be no argument because you'd just say that you aren't interested in teaching in that situation and the student wouldn't be interested in learning the way you want to teach so you would just part ways.  And that's fine. 

I'm not arguing with that.   But I do disagree with your battery analogy. 

NO i wouldn't argue with the student at all! I would try my best to convince that student that what they needed was to work on what they were interested BUT also they needed to work on other materials as well!    Maybe my post didnt' come accross that way.....you also have to keep in mind that some people think "ok, all i want to learn is this piece" then they get FRUSTRATED when they can't play it because they haven't had the foundation! If the student already knows some music then they may be ok, if they don't and have no musical background,then there is a good chance they will get frustrated no matter how much they say " I won't get frustrated, I don't care how long it takes". I"ve had plenty of students like that.   It is not as simple as saying "I won't get frustrated, I dont' care how long it takes".   Sometimes they don't know what they are getting into.   

[lostinidlewonder]

I have always thought it was wrong to feed the fantasy of a student who wants to play a peice which is too advanced for them, although I have to admit I have WASTED time with students before who insisted we spent an entire lesson on a piece they really want to try. I believe it is wrong to teach a student overly hard pieces because it encourages inefficient study. If a student comes to me and says lets do this and ABSOLUTELY nothing else for today I would say fine, lets do it. I could easily waste 1 month or more on that single piece if they wanted to, that would be easy money for me! The student would be happy because they think they are doing something special and I can put my feet up and just work on small bits until they get it.

I believe anyone can learn anything, I could easily teach a beginner to play, say a Chopin etude, thats no problems, but it would take ages. It is like reading through a tough book full of big words with a child, you have to sound out everything for them, fill in all the gaps in their knowledge for them, and even then they probably do not understand what they are saying.

I think students miss the point if they want to play the piano because of a few pieces they have heard. You study the piano so you can get to a level so that the peice you like to play are easy to play and not a mount everest. When I was a kid I loved Beethoven Sonatas but my teacher warned me not to waste my time with things that where too hard for me. It took a year to learn a complete Beethoven sonata and that rate would not increase if I didn't increase my experience in actually learning music (which came from experiencing a lot of easier pieces). Now it would take on average a week to totally learn a sonata. But I didn't get to this rate by studying hard stuff, I did it by understanding about HOW to learn the piano which came from many many pieces and getting use to the general procedure we face when playing piano.

[ingagroznaya]

Note: For the sake of always typing him/her, I'm just going to refer to the hypothetical student as "she".

~~~

What would you do if a student came to you with a notebook full of pieces that were far beyond her skill level.  She sat down with you and showed you that she could play the first few measures of each piece (maybe 5 or 6 measures).    Some of them she played HT, others she could only play the right and left hand parts separately. 

Sounds like she came from Bernhard. I'd send her back to him to continue her hypothetical learning.

[counterpoint]

Sounds like she came from Bernhard. I'd send her back to him to continue her hypothetical learning.

Bernhard, as I know him from this forum, is a very open minded person.
How do you accuse him for "hypothetical learning" (besides this: what a funny expression  )

I think, the "eccentric" student is someone, who don't want to be influenced too much by her teacher, but only helped to overcome technical problems. The thing is, that most "technical" problems are based on musical cases, so if you want to solve the problem, you must think about the music in another way. I guess, Bernhard would be an excellent teacher in this field.

[ingagroznaya]

The thing is, that most "technical" problems are based on musical cases

There are all sort of .... "cases" out there. Don't you know?

[ingagroznaya]

I guess, Bernhard would be an excellent teacher in this field.

Good point. He "would" be.

[ingagroznaya]

Not the case though. Bummer.

[sarahlein]

Sarahlein is precisely the type of teacher that I'm seeking. 

Too bad since we seem to live in different continents!

I have always thought it was wrong to feed the fantasy of a student who wants to play a peice which is too advanced for them, although I have to admit I have WASTED time with students before who insisted we spent an entire lesson on a piece they really want to try. I believe it is wrong to teach a student overly hard pieces because it encourages inefficient study. If a student comes to me and says lets do this and ABSOLUTELY nothing else fortoday I would say fine, lets do it. I could easily waste 1 month or more on that single piece if they wanted to, that would be easy money for me! The student would be happy because they think they are doing something special and I can put my feet up and just work on small bits until they get it.

I believe anyone can learn anything, I could easily teach a beginner to play, say a Chopin etude, thats no problems, but it would take ages. It is like reading through a tough book full of big words with a child, you have to sound out everything for them, fill in all the gaps in their knowledge for them, and even then they probably do not understand what they are saying.

I think students miss the point if they want to play the piano because of a few pieces they have heard. You study the piano so you can get to a level so that the peice you like to play are easy to play and not a mount everest. When I was a kid I loved Beethoven Sonatas but my teacher warned me not to waste my time with things that where too hard for me. It took a year to learn a complete Beethoven sonata and that rate would not increase if I didn't increase my experience in actually learning music (which came from experiencing a lot of easier pieces). Now it would take on average a week to totally learn a sonata. But I didn't get to this rate by studying hard stuff, I did it by understanding about HOW to learn the piano which came from many many pieces and getting use to the general procedure we face when playing piano.

I most definitly agree however, most teachers who replied so far take it for granted that all the pieces in leucippus notebook are advanced.

How do you know if you haven't seen what's in it?

Oh, is it because he says he plays the first 4 bars only?

But why should difficulty be the only reason for that? Could not lack of time or regularity also be the culprit?

Why must everything we do be graded and categorised?
Put in a box and served-take it or leave it?

[timothy42b]

I suspect that an adult with clear goals would be willing to listen to a suggestion that there is a more efficient method to meet them than the one he's come up with. 

I suspect that you would have to explain fairly clearly why, and maybe even be willing to debate the point a bit, and cite some evidence you are correct.  Perhaps there would be an agreement on a trial period, say three months with your method, three months with his.

I suspect that if the answer is no, that's not the way I do it, I always do it this way, I've done it for 30 years this way, etc., that it would be like waving a red flag in front of a bull, er leucip..., er a hypothetical adult. 

[lostinidlewonder]

..... most teachers who replied so far take it for granted that all the pieces in leucippus notebook are advanced.

when he wrote: "What would you do if a student came to you with a notebook full of pieces that were far beyond her skill level." A piece being "Advanced" is relative to the students ability of course.

Why must everything we do be graded and categorised?
Put in a box and served-take it or leave it?

Things must be graded so that you can establish the most efficient path through your musical journey. There is so much music out there most of us will die before we learn to play everything we would like to on the piano. To achieve the maximum of your musical life at the piano you must start at the bottom and work your way to the top, just like anything in life. You don't put a graduate engineer in a mangement position for the first time they are out of university, so too you don't overextend yourself in the pieces you learn at the piano and ask yourself to manage elements you have never faced. Do you fail as a manager for 5 years and learn from that, or do you work your way up to the right to be a manager and be sure of yourself what you need to do and how to tackle any challenges you face.

[ingagroznaya]

Eccentric student needs an eccentric teacher with enough eccentricities to override the student's own. This debate is not about new hypothetical teaching method some mathematician is trying to promote on this site, nor it is about the drive, wants and current technical/musical ability of the student.

I did look up the Chang book site. I could not finish the first page - it was a total nonsense.

[timothy42b]

I did look up the Chang book site. I could not finish the first page - it was a total nonsense.

It might be worth one more try.  His language is full of hyperbole and will put some people off, but if you get past that, you might find the ideas are worthwhile.  I have found them helpful. 

Skip the first page and go straight to the technique section. 

[lazlo]

In some sense, a beginning student young or adult can't really know what they want to learn since there's so much they don't know. So a beginning adult student may have very clear cut goals, and be very determined, but they don't understand what they need to reach their goal... It's not just about playing scales and arpeggios or sight reading. There is a lot of technique that is very conceptual that is just as important as scales, and much more esoteric. I think its bad to simply let a student mold you to their fit for a piece of music that is way too hard for them, because a lot of times the piece will break them and they will very likely be much more discouraged than if you put your foot down and tell them what they have to do to reach that goal. Goals are good, and a teacher knows how to help you reach those goals... it just isn't always instantaneous as we have come to expect with everything in modern life. you can't buy the skill to play a piece of music (i.e. buying a teacher to teach you a piece), that skill must be earned by the student. I don't buy the whole thing with "I have goals and JUST want you to help with THIS goal," because someone who says that in the context of say the revolutionary etude (after playing for a week) has NO idea how to reach that goal, and shouldn't be dictating to the teacher how much they want to reach it when the teacher KNOWS how to reach it.

[tiasjoy]

I've had adult students in my studio who have had specific requests.  I've been able to accomodate them and mutual respect is the result.  This can lead to compromise, and BOTH a happy teacher and happy student.

[lazlo]

Obviously there is a way to be respectful about the whole matter... I am not saying that its good to say "you suck and will never be able to play that ever". Just that it might be a good idea to explain how working on easier things helps them achieve their ultimate goal. Its much more efficient, and the things learned along the way are priceless! I've just seen teachers who allow beginning students to play extremely difficult stuff find that their student becomes very discouraged and many times will quit as a result of a failure to achieve an unrealistic goal. In that sense, a teacher is doing a disservice to their students when they don't set (WITH the student) realistic goals to accompolish.

And of course the respect factor should always be present no matter what. But as some have said it must be a MUTUAL respect, and I think this involves both parties listening to one another, not a onesided, single minded desire to play a single piece of music that is impossible for a beginner to play.

[donjuan]

Or would you tell her that you don’t teach that way and politely send her off to learn on her own?

she's a gem!  a student truly interested in playing piano, and she knows exactly what she wants.  I'd say keep her!  most students are forced into it by their parents and dont know why they play piano at all.

She is asking solely for help with technical abilities, and she's not interested in paying for instructions in musicality.

you must to explain to her that the purpose of technique is to support musicality.

Obviously there is a way to be respectful about the whole matter... I am not saying that its good to say "you suck and will never be able to play that ever". Just that it might be a good idea to explain how working on easier things helps them achieve their ultimate goal.

I think the student must reach that conclusion on their own for it to be effective at all.  I remember bringing Liszt's B minor sonata to my teacher when I was young.  He didn't stop me; he spent maybe 3 lessons helping me with whatever I asked of him.  It was only after then that I realized on my own that I would never finish this monster and I had better find a smaller stepping stone (this reminds me of a stop smoking aid commercial).  However, if he had shot my dreams down himself, I would have been more frustrated and discouraged.

[dnephi]

That sounds a bit less like eccentric and a bit more like deceived.

Daniel

[lazlo]

I guess this is a debate that can't really go anywhere since everyone is different... Everyone must be dealt with differently. Some will keep on persuing the music until they discourage themselves, others will realize they won't reach that goal and take a stepping stone, and I am sure there are many variations even within those, and many that haven't even been addressed... The key point being that everyone is different, so yes there is a counterexample for almost anything these days. I was just presenting one side that I have seen.

[leucippus]

I guess this is a debate that can't really go anywhere,...

To me, there is no debate.  That's not the reason I started the thread.   The reason I started the thread was to simply get a feel for how many teachers are out there who actually know how to deal with this type of teaching/learning.  The mere fact that many teachers  actually view this as a "debate" is the problem as far as I'm concerned.  I'm trying to avoid such teachers.

You see, I'm actually doing precisely what I said in the OP.  I am doing it on my own without the benefit of a teacher and it's working!  There isn't any debate about that in my mind at all. 

How can I say that it's "working"?  Because I'm making what I consider to be satisfactory progress.  That's all I need as 'proof' that it's working for me.   So there isn't any question in my mind whether or not the system works.  My only question is whether or not I can find a teacher who understands this system well enough to actually teach it.  That's the only question I have.  There is no 'debate' about whether or not the approach works as far as I'm concerned.

Now, many may get hostile to this and say, "Well if it's working for you so well then what do you need a teacher for?"

Well shame on any teacher who would voice such a question.  If they only thing a teacher is good for is to point the path of a suitable step-by-step progressive program then we could do away with teachers altogether because there are plenty of such programs already printed out.  That's obviously not what people go to teachers to get.

People go to teachers to get the in-person evaluation and experienced hands-on tips about how to better execute techniques. They also go to teachers quite often simply for the coaching effect.  It's always good to have someone pushing you along by expecting you to come back to the next lesson having practiced something.  This works doubly because, first, the student doesn't want to let the teacher down, and secondly, it actually gives the student incentive to try to impress the teacher in hopes of praise.

So there are a lot of things that teachers are valuable for that go far beyond the structure of the lesson plans.  Teachers who are locked into narrowly-defined lesson plans are limiting their capabilities.  And if they become defensive toward suggestions beyond how they like to teach then they have indeed thrown away the key to that lock.

I have not taught piano, or music of any kind.  However, I have taught mathematics, physics, computer technologies, as well as many hands-on crafts such as woodworking, welding and graphic arts.  I've been a teacher for many years.  In fact, I actually began to become interested in teaching abstractly in its own right.  I began to study pedagogy and I'm really glad I did.   The study of pedagogy in its own right opened up for me a whole new world of specialty teaching for both the learning disabled as well as how to best help advanced students move ahead more quickly than a standard program might allow. 

I became intensely interested in specialty students, because I am creative, sensitive, and extremely  patient.  I consider my best quality to be my ability to sense what an individual student needs to grasp something well.   And my individual students have often praised my ability to help them when other teachers would lose patience or simply not "understand" where the student was coming from.  So I'm a very big proponent of eccentric teaching methods.

My interest this the special fields of pedagogy lead me into the field of andragogy which many teachers seem to be totally unaware of.  Adults learn differently than children do.  However, the precisely definition of an "adult" mind is not easy to define.   It quite often can have absolutely nothing at all to do with age.   It's an attitude, or a way of thinking that is different from standard pedagogical approaches. 

Sarahlein instantly recognized that the situation was that of a mature mind and she was prepared to respect and work with that mature mind.  That is the first key in becoming an Andragogue (an effective teacher of adults).

But again you need to be careful of the word "Adults".  It's a way of thinking and doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with age.  Some very young people think like adults.  Some very old people are so used to the pedagogical approach that they have simply become accustomed to it and would rather do things the 'traditional' way than to try something different.

So the andragological approach may or may not work for students of any age.  But this case described in the OP of this thread is an obvious adult case.  Sarahlein recognized this immediately. 

Does the system that was described work?  Yes, that's a given.  The student has already been making satisfactory progress enough alone to actually be encouraged to seek out a teacher.  The student has found her "Way of thinking" that works for her.  The only thing left now is to find a teacher who can deal with it.  A teacher who recognizes that what is needed is in-person evaluation, tips on technique, encouragement, and yes, even inspirational praise as in a coaching effect.

These are the things the adult student is looking for in a teacher.

So I didn't start this thread to debate the method.  I started it simply to see how many teachers can actually recognize non-traditional approaches to learning and deal with them appropriately.

Several teachers were arguing that it would be a waste of time and that the student would soon become frustrated.  They didn't even stop to ask how long the student had been using this approach on her own or whether any satisfactory progress had been made.  They just assumed to already know all the answers.  Those teachers are living in a pedagogical box.   They aren't even willing to consider whether there might be other valid approaches to teaching/learning.  Why on God's green earth would I even want to debate with such obviously biased people?

My purpose of this thread was simply to see how many teachers out there are already able to see the bigger picture on their own.  I have no desire to change the ones who prefer to stick with the more limiting traditional pedagogical approach.  I'm just not on the market for that kind of teacher.  That's all.

[pianistimo]

methinks thee protest too much.

explain, using a crossover example, how you let your 'special thinking' math students do higher calculus before they learn algebra.

i personally don't believe there even IS such a thing as a standard 'traditional' way of teaching.  i have never had two teachers who taught the same method.  there are so many books, so many ways of teaching, and so many personalities of teachers.  i totally agree with you that a teacher should consider working with the student they have and not putting all students into one box.  i don't do that either.

one problem with adult students is that they remember how 'so and so' taught - or what somebody said on a piano forum.  children do not challenge ideas until they try them.  so, in a sense - some children progress in a method (even if it is a created method by the teacher) faster by not being suspicious of the teacher's every move.

i think the issue is trust.  do you trust that the teacher can move you from a to b.  usually, that can be answered by how well the teacher plays and how well his/her students play.  once that issue is resolved...the student learns to ask lots of questions and use the information (whether from teacher or own practice) wisely.  also, to not 'drive' the teacher - but let the teacher teach naturally.  what i mean by 'drive' - is to push for more things to practice on than is time-wise possible.  for instance, at home i have stacks of music - and when i am done practicing - i often will go overtime (when i'm practicing lots) and spend an hour extra on just 'fiddling.'  but, this is for my sightreading and understanding of music that i like and just want to play.  usually what my teacher picks is a bit more challenging and concentrates on aspects that i am not as familiar with. 

[ptmidwest]

Is the student, or is she not, "eccentric"?

(Please don't answer that.)


So, what here is new?  Coaches have been doing this forever.  Students come to them in preparation for a competition or audition, to clean up their pieces.  They stay for two lessons, or a month, or a couple years.  Often they come to work on a particular technique, or to study a particular style or composer, or they are interested in some area that is a specialty of the teacher.

True, they are more the advanced pianists, but every one of us has some areas that don't shine so bright, and they are students because SOMETHING is beyond them at this point, and they are seeking.

So what is new here? 

[pianistimo]

agreed - although sometimes the students that think they are eccentric are bull headed and the students that are 'geek practicers' are eccentric because the teacher notices.

[leucippus]

explain, using a crossover example, how you let your 'special thinking' math students do higher calculus before they learn algebra.

Funny you should mention that.  I have actually done this very thing.  Calculus ultimately does not depend on algebra, yet if you ask most mathematicians to teach you calculus before teaching you algebra they will bulk at that approach as being unrealistic and inappropriate.  But in truth, it is a perfectly doable thing.

I should qualify that too.  No one would ever pass a college calculus course without knowing algebra.   But that's only because those courses expect the students to know algebra and demand that the students do all of the algebra in every calculus problem.  But ultimately there is a calculus part of the problem, and an algebra part of the problem.  So if teachers really wanted to they *could* teach calculus to non-algebra students if they really wanted to.  The problem is that very few teachers are willing to do that.   So people are forced to learn algebra before they learn calculus, simply because the pedagogues who teach calculus won't consider teaching it to non-algebraic students.

So again, the questions really doesn't come down to what's possible.  The question comes down to whether or not a person can find a teacher who's willing to do it.

In truth, calculus is actually quite a bit simpler than algebra.

[keyofc]

I have read most of the posts to this   and seem to
remember that Bernhard starts with whatever piece a person wants to play.
No matter how difficult.
I wonder how he does it?

[dorfmouse]

I have read most of the posts to this and seem to
remember that Bernhard starts with whatever piece a person wants to play.
No matter how difficult.
I wonder how he does it?

I don't think he quite said that.  I'm pretty sure he said for such a person he would develop a progressive repertoire which would enable that person to eventually tackle the technical and musical demands of the goal piece.