KISSIN IS THE BEST PIANIST AROUND THE XX CENTURY AND THE WOLD HISTORY

[desordre]

 Dear fellows:
 What shall I write here? If someone loves Kissin, let there be love. 
 However, if we want to be any serious about this topic, he would probably not deserve a mention in a list of the 100 most important pianist of all times. Anyway, he is a good player. As I said in a previous thread, there is nothing wrong with the guy, but he is usually overrated. Why this need to make an artist an almighty god or something that way? Freud would probably explain that.
 Best wishes!

[cygnusdei]

[PaulNaud]

he would probably not deserve a mention in a list of the 100 most important pianist of all times

Are you KIDDING ?

Freud would probably explain that.

[soliloquy]

Are you KIDDING ?

Off the top of my head, I shall now try to come up with 50 pianists who are more important/influential, and I'm sure I could do another 50 when I'm more awake- ask me again tomorrow:

1- hamelin
2- argerich
3- pletnev
4- richter
5- gilels
6- moiseiwitsch
7- kapell
8- brendel
9- cliburn
10- rubinstein
11- liszt
12- alkan
13- thalberg
14- paderewski
15- busoni
16- schnebel
17- arrau
18- aimard
19- pogolerich
20- sofronitsky
21- levine
22- cortot
23- horowitz
24- entremont
25- friedman
26- houghs
27- ax
28- hodges
29- ogdon
30- rachmaninov
31- watts
32- janice
33- berezovsky
34- gould
35- libetta
36- bolet
37- cziffra
38- kempf
39- fischer
40- de larrocha
41- pollini
42- goode
43- michelangeli
44- wild
45- rzewski
46- zimerman
47- andsnes
48- ashkenazy
49- barenboim
50- geiseking


That took about 3 minutes.

[desordre]

 Dear Soliloquy:
 Please, let me complete your list.

51 - tureck
52 - uchida
53 - gould
54 - andras schiff
55 - arrau
56 - hind
57 - horowitz
58 - perahia
59 - moravec
60 - freire
61 - szidon
62 - lipatti
63 - pires
64 - meyer
65 - katchen
66 - hofmann
67 - backhaus
68 - casadesus
69 - gulda
70 - cherkassky
71 - yudina
72 - taub
73 - penneys
74 - curzon
75 - lupu
76 - eschenbach
77 - solomon
78 - fleisher
79 - schnabel
80 - françois
81 - hewitt
82 - haebler
83 - weissenberg
84 - friedman
85 - gavrilov
86 - gieseking
87 - gilels
88 - hamelin
89 - godowsky
90 - sherbakov
91 - henck
92 - boffard
93 - kovacevich
94 - pizarro
95 - douglas
96 - williams
97 - diev
98 - haskil
99 - demidenko
100 - labeque

 Just some names that come easy, and really there are a number more.

[desordre]

 PS to Soliloquy: I don't want to create more issues here, but did you notice that neither in yours nor in mine list there is the name Lang? Curious... 

[franzliszt2]

If he's so bad how does he seel out Carnegie hall? My god, leave the poor chap alone. He's achieved far more than any of you's will ever achieve. I'm sure I could name a hundred billion pianists better than you.

Although Kissin is not my favourite pianist, and I do honestly think he has produced some bad recordings, he's also released some amaizng recordings, and I've seen him in concert, and he was very interesting, and I enjoyed the concert.

Whats so bad about him? I could name awful recordings by every pianist you mentioned, and although I hate some of the playing of people you mentioned, they are still great pianists and I admire them.

It's a matter of opinion. As for critics who insult him, critics are absolute losers, I mean doesn't the whole Joyce Hatto thing not just make you laugh so much at the idicotic critics haha

[soliloquy]

Whats so bad about him?

Simply, the fact that he has two dynamics in which he will play an ENTIRE piece:

Fast+Loud+full damper
Fast+Loud+completely staccato


These and these only.

[rob47]

101. Turini

[desordre]

If he's so bad how does he seel out Carnegie hall? (...)

1) I never said he's a bad pianist. My point is: he is overrated;
 2) If Miss Aguilera (or any clone) is so bad how does she sell so many records?

(...) He's achieved far more than any of you's will ever achieve. I'm sure I could name a hundred billion pianists better than you. (...)

3) How do you know that he achieved more than I did?
 4) How could you name a hundred billion pianists better than me if you never did listen to myself playing?

(...) Although Kissin is not my favourite pianist, and I do honestly think he has produced some bad recordings, he's also released some amazing recordings, and I've seen him in concert, and he was very interesting, and I enjoyed the concert. (...)

  5) So, we do agree: he have very bad recordings, as well as he have some that you can listen to, although to my personals, he is always a bit boring and naive, to say the least;

(...) Whats so bad about him? (...)

6) Again, I never said that there is anything so bad about him, but in the other hand (and that what this thread is all about), there is nothing so good about him;

(...) I could name awful recordings by every pianist you mentioned, and although I hate some of the playing of people you mentioned, they are still great pianists and I admire them. (...)

7) As almost anything you wrote, you exaggerate here, and to be honest, I think you are misleading your fire. Could you mention an "awful" recording by Mrs. Argerich? Or Mrs. Uchida? Or Mr. Barenboim? Or Mr. Aimard? Etc etc etc. Although I can agree that it's very difficult to find an artist with a huge career in the record industry that have always the same level, it's also very difficult to talk about bad recordings by most of the pianists in the list. Furthermore, many of them (to not say all of them) really excel in one composer, style, or period. Again, let's get back to my point: what is a major contribution by Mr. Kissin? In my modest opinion, the answer is very simple. Beyond the fireworks, is there anything?

(...) It's a matter of opinion. As for critics who insult him, critics are absolute losers, (...)

8 ) Oh, well...again...Of course it's a matter of opinion;
 9)...and again... Why do you think critics are losers? Kissin is a winner, then? What does it matter at all?

 Last but not least, I have nothing personally against Mr. Kissin, and if he have a sucessful carreer and people love him, I have nothing to complain. As you said, "leave the chap alone". However, when someone says that he's "the best pianist around the xx century and the wold [sic] history", what is this thread all about,  I can't agree and have to present my position. In my first post above, I wrote that he could never be in a serious list of the most important pianists of history. Well, Mr. Soliloquy started a list of twentieth century (not all, but the very most) artists and I do agree even with this. In my modest opinion, I would probably never prefer Kissin to any of the forementioned. However, if we dig deeper and think about the very piano History, the list will certainly include Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, etc etc etc etc (several times...) and then, for sure, Mr. Kissin just can't be present. So, please let me restate something I wrote in a previous thread: he's a good professional, but actually is not a fundamental player.

 Best wishes!

[cygnusdei]

Artistic qualities are elusive and subjective, but importance/influence is not. To gauge influence is to gauge followership, which makes irrelevant whether someone is overrated or underrated.

[soliloquy]

Artistic qualities are elusive and subjective, but importance/influence is not. To gauge influence is to gauge followership, which makes irrelevant whether someone is overrated or underrated.

Abyssmally incorrect.  Lang Lang is one of the highest-paid soloists, and nobody here will say that he has a shred of musicality in him.  His playing style has not made any particularly huge impact on the field of piano.

A much better example would be Shostakovich.  Incredibly popular.  Now, tell me how many people followed his compositional style?  Wait.  Wait.  Oh.  Zero?  Correct.

Xenakis- top five most IMPORTANT and INFLUENTIAL composers of the last 50 years.  Number of people who listen to his music?  A hand-full.


Cortot and Bolet changed piano playing in their day.  Kissin is a pop star for the masses, and the masses are stupid, have no ear for fine music, and just want to hear Rachmaninov 2.

[franzliszt2]

WHAT HAS XENAKIS DONE TO INFLUENCE THE MUSICAL WORLD??? WHAT THE HELL YOU ON ABOUT? Who composes like him?? He's influenced nobody!

He has no influence!! He is just a mathsmatician! Who randomly blobbed a loads of theory's together!! Messian even refused him from his class. Nobody listens to Xenakis becasue he's crap!! And please don;t reply, you havn't listened to it enough, or you don;t understand it, or you you havn't analysed it, I've probley had more exposure to Xenakis than most people here, and I would never inflict him on anyone becasue I no how crap he is.

5 composers more influencial..

Steve Reich
Messiaen
Boulez
Stockhausen
Ligeti

Xenakis was not a musician, therfore not worthy of respect. At least Lang Lang can play an instrument.

How did Cortot change piano playing? And Bolet??
They were both great pianists, but I wouldn't say they changed anything

[elevateme_returns]

Dear Soliloquy:
 Please, let me complete your list.
85 - gavrilov

hahahahahahahahahaha dont make me laugh

[elevateme_returns]

Abyssmally incorrect.  Lang Lang is one of the highest-paid soloists, and nobody here will say that he has a shred of musicality in him.  His playing style has not made any particularly huge impact on the field of piano.

oh, right. why dont you get a sell-out carnegie hall concert and then tell lang lang how unmusical he is. of course there are people here that say he is musical. have you even heard him play? what don't you like about his playing?

Xenakis- top five most IMPORTANT and INFLUENTIAL composers of the last 50 years.  Number of people who listen to his music?  A hand-full.

aaahahahahahahaha my ribs hurt after that one

Cortot and Bolet changed piano playing in their day.  Kissin is a pop star for the masses, and the masses are stupid, have no ear for fine music, and just want to hear Rachmaninov 2.

define "fine music". in my opinion the greatest music ever written is brahms op 117 - 119. do i have an ear for fine music? or is it just opinion?

[cygnusdei]

Abyssmally incorrect.  Lang Lang is one of the highest-paid soloists, and nobody here will say that he has a shred of musicality in him.  His playing style has not made any particularly huge impact on the field of piano.

A much better example would be Shostakovich.  Incredibly popular.  Now, tell me how many people followed his compositional style?  Wait.  Wait.  Oh.  Zero?  Correct.

Xenakis- top five most IMPORTANT and INFLUENTIAL composers of the last 50 years.  Number of people who listen to his music?  A hand-full.


Cortot and Bolet changed piano playing in their day.  Kissin is a pop star for the masses, and the masses are stupid, have no ear for fine music, and just want to hear Rachmaninov 2.

I never claim there is a correlation between musical qualities and influence. Gauging influence is not unlike an election: you might not know which candidate is more deserving to win, but you'll always have a winner. 

[soliloquy]

WHAT HAS XENAKIS DONE TO INFLUENCE THE MUSICAL WORLD??? WHAT THE HELL YOU ON ABOUT? Who composes like him?? He's influenced nobody!

He has no influence!! He is just a mathsmatician! Who randomly blobbed a loads of theory's together!! Messian even refused him from his class. Nobody listens to Xenakis becasue he's crap!! And please don;t reply, you havn't listened to it enough, or you don;t understand it, or you you havn't analysed it, I've probley had more exposure to Xenakis than most people here, and I would never inflict him on anyone becasue I no how crap he is.

5 composers more influencial..

Steve Reich
Messiaen
Boulez
Stockhausen
Ligeti

Xenakis was not a musician, therfore not worthy of respect. At least Lang Lang can play an instrument.

How did Cortot change piano playing? And Bolet??
They were both great pianists, but I wouldn't say they changed anything

Ahahaha... if you go check that thread on "What other instruments do you have?" you'll see my violin sitting next to my SIGNED COPY of Formalized Music; you know, that book Xenakis wrote.  Now, no offense, but in my mind, somebody who can't spell "mathematician" is probably not a very reliable source on the subject of Iannis Xenakis, not to mention can't seem to spell "analyzed", "load", "theories", "Messiaen", "because", "haven't", "don't", "don't" again, "probably", "know", oh and you also misspelled "because" again Einstein.  First thing's first: you state that Messiaen refused to teach Xenakis, which I personally find somewhat interesting, because, according to EVERY SINGLE THING EVER WRITTEN ON MESSIAEN OR XENAKIS, Messiaen was Xenakis' teacher, and Xenakis had never been refused by a music teacher, but had left a couple, Milhaud and Delius being two.  But you're obviously more of a source on Xenakis than me, so I must just be dyslexic.  Oh wait, judging by your spelling, that's you, so I can see how you got confused  You're right though; he hasn't had any effect on future music.

...

Unless you consider being considered the grandfather of Vectoral Music (followers like Claude Vivier), Electronic Music (followers like Stockhausen, Barraque, Ligeti, Reich and Nono), and of course, stochastic music (followers like nearly every single composer in the 60's-80's, including but not limited to Boulez and Cage)

And please don;t reply, you havn't listened to it enough, or you don;t understand it, or you you havn't analysed it,

Do you mean, "please don't reply because I have no idea about what I'm talking about and I don't want you to make me look stupid?"  Well too bad you didn't say that.  You probably shouldn't spout complete crap about Xenakis at someone whose username on this forum used to be "I Love Xenakis".  I have listened to literally every single piece he has written that has been recorded, not to mention a couple that haven't been recorded live, including two retracted pieces which I have the sheet music to.  Now, was there a specific composition you were referring to that I do not understand, because they all vary so much :O  What would you like me to do to reassure you of my all-encompassing knowledge of Xenakis?  Draw the graph that inspired Herma, which is based on Boolean Algebra?  Maybe go through the steps of the formula that his famous Pithroprakta is based on?  Maybe explain what a "Markov Chain" or a "Gestalt Period" is, and how they are used in so many of his works?  Why don't YOU explain game theory to me and tell me some of the pieces he uses it in, then scan some of the sheet music and show me too since apparently you've studied and analyzed so much of it; but I wouldn't try to fake it because I have scans of the scores of almost everything he wrote, solo, chamber or orchestral.  Whose recording of Herma do you like?  AKi Takahashi's, Yuji Takahashi's, Herbert Henck's, Geoffrey Madge's... oops you don't have Madge's because it's a private recording  But like you said, you're the expert.

5 composers more influencial..

Steve Reich
Messiaen
Boulez
Stockhausen
Ligeti

The only person who one could make any argument whatsoever as to having had a larger impact on music would be Boulez.  Reich was not in any ways an innovator, and he was also not the father of minimalism; that title would go to Michael Nyman, who literally invented the term "minimalism".  Messiaen, while very unique, has not had many followers.  Sciarrino was obviously influenced somewhat, but he is possibly the only one who shows heavy influence of Messiaen.  Stockhausen (why would you choose Stockhausen over Cage?) was just a serialist composer when Cage was around, and then when Cage died he was just the new Cage.  Not nearly as important as Xenakis; first he worked in the Serialist style, then the hyper avant-garde, neither of which he came up with, and that type of avant-garde music has been a dying breed for a long time now.  Ligeti is the dumbest name to put on this list.  Just makes no sense.  I guess that's one of the very few modern composers' names you know and you just had to throw it on because if your list was only four people you'd look stupid, right?  

oh, right. why dont you get a sell-out carnegie hall concert and then tell lang lang how unmusical he is. of course there are people here that say he is musical. have you even heard him play? what don't you like about his playing?

He hasn't sold out a major hall in over 5 years.  His reviews are getting continually worse.  What is there to like about his playing?  I can bang out Don Juan at full volume with no dynamic changes whatsoever, and JUST AS LOUD AS HE CAN!  I could probably even do it without making it look like I'm having an orgasm+being shot at the same time, and maybe, if I really tried, avoid all the fingernail clicking while I'm at it.  Have you ever SEEN him play?  lol

aaahahahahahahaha my ribs hurt after that one

Read up.  Or read at all.

define "fine music". in my opinion the greatest music ever written is brahms op 117 - 119. do i have an ear for fine music? or is it just opinion?

Sounds like you don't.  Music doesn't come much more conservative, plebeian and pedestrian than that.  I guess you like substanceless, super cheesy pianists because you like substanceless, super cheesy music

[franzliszt2]

My God, learn the meaning of the word opinion. I hate Xenakis, you can love him. I don't care. I just thought I';d voice my opinion, and I shall continue to hate Xenakis

[soliloquy]

My God, learn the meaning of the word opinion. I hate Xenakis, you can love him. I don't care. I just thought I';d voice my opinion, and I shall continue to hate Xenakis

NICE ONE?  ahahahahahahahahaha


I'm not bashing your opinion of dislike towards Xenakis, I'm bashing the UTTERLY RETARDED LIES YOU STATE AS FACTS

[franzliszt2]

What?? Please, I'm jst not puttong my point forward to you anymore, I could put lots of facts to you, but what will it achieve? At the end of it all, you'll still ove him,. aI'll hate him. Lets leave it at that.

[soliloquy]

What?? Please, I'm jst not puttong my point forward to you anymore, I could put lots of facts to you, but what will it achieve? At the end of it all, you'll still ove him,. aI'll hate him. Lets leave it at that.

What facts?  Every single thing you stated as a fact before is blatantly incorrect, not to mention the fact that I obviously know infinitely more about Xenakis than you.  I guess that would be why you want to just "leave it at that", because I called you on your ego-stroking BS, when you obviously just assumed that nobody here would be able to carry out a conversation on Xenakis.  So just please and quit acting like you know anything at all.  Btw, I just ran into a thread in which you spoke about how you earned one of your music degrees on the works of Chopin?  Please... upload that dissertation   Or a copy of the degree would be fine.  Which degree was that again?  Also, aren't you like 14-16 years old?  A bit young to be earning degrees.  Btw, how did you pass a class when you misspell half the words you type?

[franzliszt2]

I'm 18. Where did I say I've earned a degree? I've never said that. I mispell my words becasue I can't be bothered to type carefully.

[soliloquy]

I'm 18. Where did I say I've earned a degree? I've never said that. I mispell my words becasue I can't be bothered to type carefully.

Um... you know, you probably should have been able to figure out that you weren't going to get away with lying here, seeing as how I just quoted where you said you got your degree like... 4 minutes ago and have been arguing with you about it on another thread.

I did a huge analysis of his music, and studied it in huge depth for part of my degree. It's awful. Why call me a close minded idiot for not liking his music??? It's personal, I dislike it in so many ways. I think that your close minded for not accepting my opinion.

Want to try to tell me you didn't say that?

[franzliszt2]

Yes, degree courses have many parts, that add up! At the end I will do my final recital, and then all the rest of my marks (history, aural etc..) will add up. I do this over 4 years, and then....wey, I get a degree

[mephisto]

Messiaen was Xenakis' teacher, and Xenakis had never been refused by a music teacher, but had left a couple, Milhaud and DELIUS being two.  

I find that extremely difficult to belive considering that Delius died when Xenakis was 12. But I may of course be wrong. I admit not having read a single Xenakis bio, so I don't know much on this subject.

[soliloquy]

I find that extremely difficult to belive considering that Delius died when Xenakis was 12. But I may of course be wrong. I admit not having read a single Xenakis bio, so I don't know much on this subject.

Ahaha true I always get Milhaud and Delius mixed up, but then I just remembered he had three and accidentally put in Delius instead of the correct name, which would be Honegger.