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Topic: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?  (Read 1693 times)

Offline henrah

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It's often an argument where one person thinks someone isn't playing with emotion and another thinks they are.

So I pose this question: what must a pianist to, or how must a pianist play, to constitute 'playing with emotion'?

Of course this question doesn't mean that all pianists should play this way or that to ensure that all listeners think they are playing with emotion.

I wonder what kinda responses this will bring...
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline prometheus

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #1 on: December 05, 2006, 06:04:57 PM
It doesn't matter if you play with emotion or not. The emotions will never leave your mind.

There is no emotion in music itself. But music can be strongly assosiated with emotion.

What people mean when they talk about 'playing with emotion', I think that can differ greatly among different people.
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline henrah

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #2 on: December 05, 2006, 06:06:11 PM
Exactly Promey, this is why I want to know so much. There is no real way to tell if someone is actively playing with emotion or not, regardless if it is in their mind. Nonetheless, a complete zombie could play the piano fantastically enough to merit some people thinking s/he is playing with emotion, or emotion is present in their playing, yet be completely dead inside (pun intended) :D
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline counterpoint

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 06:42:34 PM
Very interesting question!

Perhaps, the only meaning of "he doesn't play with emotion" is

"I don't like how he plays"

The music does not evoke (positive) emotions in the listener.

The listener himself is part of the problem!
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline mephisto

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 06:47:37 PM
If someone sitts still like Hamelin, Fiorentino, Michelangeli etc many people consider that unemotional. Not my oppinion.

Offline henrah

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #5 on: December 05, 2006, 07:38:57 PM
Y'know, I've realised that I make quite a lot of movements at the piano, many of them the cliche circular motions. I think it helps my relaxation, and also I realised that I rotate faster when I play faster. How odd...

Maybe I subconsciously want people to think I'm playing with emotion... I dunno, I'll see tomorrow night what people say!
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline counterpoint

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #6 on: December 05, 2006, 07:42:20 PM
If someone sitts still like Hamelin, Fiorentino, Michelangeli etc many people consider that unemotional. Not my oppinion.

If someone looks, as if his whole family died the day before while playing Barcarole of Chopin, I would it call...  perhaps not unemotional...  but ...  misplaced  8)
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline counterpoint

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #7 on: December 05, 2006, 07:54:24 PM
Y'know, I've realised that I make quite a lot of movements at the piano, many of them the cliche circular motions. I think it helps my relaxation, and also I realised that I rotate faster when I play faster. How odd...


What sort of rotation? Wrist rotation? I do this also. If you hold a note or chord, I want to scape the sound at least in my imagination - too bad that there's no way to scape the sound veritably after the hammer has hit the string.
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline cmg

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #8 on: December 05, 2006, 07:56:08 PM
Intriguing thread, I gotta say.  Was it Wordsworth who said something like "poetry is emotion recollected in tranqullity?"  Or was it Coleridge.  Whatever.  The quote applies to all performance art, I think, where you can't lose your head over interpretation or your technique and concentration will fly out the window.

I had a friend, a very gifted pianist, who was working on doctoral stuff with her teacher.  My friend was rather notorious for swaying and bobbing around the keyboard.  She thought it made her look "musical."  What it actually did was interfere with her technique to a massive degree.  She studied with David Bar-Illan who jumped all over her for this.  "Sit still," he told her.  "That way you'll keep your body balanced, your hand position steady and you'll be able to concentrate on producing a musical statement through the sound you produce."

Really, I think the very greatest pianists are the most still at the keyboard.  Waving around in the breeze is silly and counterproductive.  Look at Horowitz, Rubenstein, Argerich, Hamelin, Kissin.  Don't look at Lang Lang, but do listen to him.  He's wonderful and one of the few great pianists who sway and bob excessively.  I bet he pays for it later . . . it doesn't look "emotional" to me, it looks like an enormous waste of energy and I think it's a distraction to his audience.

The athleticism of piano technique is like any great athleticism.  It should be done with the greatest economy of movement.  The rest is show-boating.
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline dnephi

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #9 on: December 05, 2006, 08:03:33 PM
he must break the rules by posting in the wrong forum at least 900 times.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline cmg

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #10 on: December 05, 2006, 09:24:24 PM
he must break the rules by posting in the wrong forum at least 900 times.

I know.  That Chaccaron thread, for example, needs to be under "Performance."  8)
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline henrah

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #11 on: December 05, 2006, 11:41:30 PM
Hehe too true 8) And I only just realised that I posted this in the Anything but Piano forum! I just thought of the question and posted it in the forum I was viewing, so woops ::)

Counterpoint, I mean the rotation of the entire body, but rotation doesn't describe it well, and in fact is way off so sorry :P I mean the circular upper-body swing that some people do when playing the piano, kind of swinging towards and away from the piano in a circle if seen from above. I practised a while ago, and I noticed that I actually swing sideways more than round and round, staying the same distance from the piano. Also often I have to reposition myself on the stool, and that might be seen as an overtly extrovert movement  ;)

And you're right cmg, swaying at the piano is counterproductive, and those that are more astutely refined in relaxation would find it extremely hard to stay relaxed whilst swinging about. But it's an odd action, and I find myself doing it as I go with the music, and it feels like I'm putting more of myself into the piece. Of course strictly and scientifically speaking, it could sound exactly the same if I played it deadly still, but there's something in the actions which can change one's perception of sound, and also it can become tiring to look constantly at a pianist who is dead still except for their hands. I find that I enjoy live concerts more if I close my eyes, except in the case where I can see the pianists hands and sometimes I sacrifice detailed listening to just see the dexterity, but I'm not sure that the majority of concert goers do close their eyes. If I don't close my eyes voluntarily, they sometimes close themselves because my visual senses become bored and I start wandering my eyes about the room and don't pay attention to the music, so I find closing my eyes very beneficial. But for those that don't, I'm happy in the knowledge that my movements - no matter how small, as long as there are some - will keep some of the viewers less bored than if they were staring at a dead still zombie producing wonderful music.

Unless they can see my hands. If everyone could see and would want to see my hands, I'd do them the pleasure and stay right out of the way so they can see well.



Any more thoughts on this?
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline cmg

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #12 on: December 06, 2006, 03:22:25 AM
Well, Henrah, I think you're selling yourself short.  I don't think you have to move about excessively to convey your feelings.   If you can convey the spirit of the score to your audiences, they'll be moved and grateful no matter how still you appear to be.  It's an auditory thing, you know?  Let them be "moved."  Not you.  In the 1960s (I've read, of course) there was a cellist who played Bach topless.  No one was moved . . . well, not musically.  Forget the visual.  There's nothing more moving that classical restraint.  I bet Liszt and Chopin sat perfectly still. 

I guess this is the crux of my argument:  have you worked on the Chopin B-flat minor Prelude?  Check it out.  Trust me, there's not one nano-second where you can afford to be theatrical in your body movements.  Dealing with this bear is like Olympic-level platform diving.  This piece demands intense concentration and perfect hand/arm/body alignment.  You start swaying around here and you'll find yourself slipping into a version of demented Schoenberg -- and that ain't pretty! 
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline henrah

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #13 on: December 06, 2006, 08:35:10 AM
What number prelude is the Bb minor one? For my lazyness :)

And yes, I agree with everything you've said, but I must point out that Liszt - in all probability during his pimping years - flaired about excessively, but that's probably not swaying and instead just jumping and startling. Chopin probably sat still, yes.

I just hope that tonight the audience members think the same way you do, and really listen to the sound I'll be creating (which is the most important factor in the piece I'm playing, especially in the first part - the second part needs it also, but it also needs fury and power)
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline ted

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #14 on: December 06, 2006, 09:43:44 PM
It probably depends on whether a live performance or simply musical sound is your principle stimulus. Speaking for myself, the emotional state of the pianist neither interests nor concerns me. For all I know or care the sounds might have been produced by a computer.

Approaching the question from the other side, emotion is just one mental option which I am at liberty to employ while playing. Whether or not I do so is almost certainly not detectable by observing my physical actions.

It is debatable that the trance-like state of physical involvement some pianists, for example Jarrett, wallow in during playing is really emotion at all in the normally understood sense of the word. I think in many cases this quasi-hypnotic reflex just becomes as much a part of a pianist's personal playing yoga as his finger technique.

In short, I agree with Prometheus - it is all in the mind - of both player and listener and not necessarily the same for both on any given occasion.
"Mistakes are the portals of discovery." - James Joyce

Offline rc

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #15 on: December 06, 2006, 11:13:05 PM
Hard to say for sure, but I believe emotion in the performer affects the performance in ways.  My teacher is able to tell when I'm into the piece or not, he can tell which sections I like better than others.  I think I play better when I'm able to get into the mood of what I'm playing.  But how to objectively confirm such a thing?

I don't see a problem with moving around as you play.  We like to move around when we listen to music, it's natural.  If you're listening and liking what you're playing, and can get away with some swaying, no problem...  If the music is too difficult, you probably wouldn't be able to sway even if you wanted to - you're concentration would be absorbed in getting the notes out.  If I'm playing a simple Andante that I enjoy, it would probably take more energy for me to supress the swaying than to just let it happen.

Offline rc

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #16 on: December 06, 2006, 11:22:12 PM
Oh, back to the original post - from the perspective of a listener...  I can't really tell whether a pianist is feeling it or not.  Maybe one has to be used to listening to a particular person play to know their habits, and be able to tell what's going on inside them.

Assuming all the notes are there, I think one can get away with faking emotional expression - to play with carefully selected dynamics to help convey the intended atmosphere, although the pianist may not necessarily be in that state himself...  But, one should certainly use the guidance of emotion in choosing interpretive details during practice.

Offline pianolist

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Re: How must a pianist play to constitute playing with emotion?
Reply #17 on: December 07, 2006, 01:43:58 AM
As a pianola player, I am in a unique position to answer this question, because a standard (non-recorded) pianola roll provides the notes and nothing more. So everything I do is concerned with the performance of the music, and not with the individual notes. There are, of course, obstacles that confront me that are unknown to pianists, such as the possible difficulties of bringing individual notes out of a complex texture, but we'll leave them on one side for now.

Playing the piano is rather like acting. Two actors will never perform a speech in the same way. A poor actor may leave you feeling that the text is banal, while another may move you to tears, or make you laugh. And we shouldn't discount laughter as an emotion, by the way; too many pianists seem to believe that piano recitals must be deadly serious.

The tools that an actor has are the control of his body and his voice. I know the voice is effectively part of the body, but in essence there are two major elements to consider. The body element is not so important in playing the piano, though I think it is still relevant. Audiences need to sense the humanity in both the music and the performer, and natural body movements that communicate enthusiasm and commitment to music can be part of the repertoire of a great artist. That is not to say that such movements should be conscious or planned, because they would then become unnatural and ineffective, as witness Lang Lang, in my opinion.

Inevitably the voice is the major element in most acting. One can change pitch, loudness and timing. Inflection is a mixture of all these three, and it is the sensitive inflection of words which adds to their meaning and helps to move us. So it is with piano playing. These days many people think that both the pitches and durations are set in stone, and for this reason I consider that piano playing is not as subtle as it was a hundred years ago.

The dynamics of notes and phrases are very important, of course, but it is the timing, or more accurately, the micro-timing of notes which gives them their real meaning. To emphasise a word in speech, we do not have to make it louder, but we simply hesitate slightly before uttering it. These tiny hesitations and variations in note placement and duration are what go to make up an emotional performance.

If you play a recorded piano roll with no dynamics, you can still hear the performance style of the original pianist. But if you play a non-recorded piano roll with the dynamics of some pianist or other, it is no longer possible to recognise the individuality.

To put this all in a nutshell, if I ask someone a question about their life, and they say "Ah," in a straightforward manner, then I expect a reasonably uncomplicated and cheery reply to follow. But if they look sideways at me, with slightly lowered face and big eyes, pause for a while, and say "Ah," rather slowly, then I expect sadness to ensue. If their eyes sparkle, and they say "Ah," somewhat breathlessly and quickly, then I can discern excitement.

There's a piano roll of Percy Grainger playing "Lotus Land" by Cyril Scott, which sounds just like an opium den to me. I'll see if I can post a recording. There are many passages within it where the music speeds up, as though some stimulus has penetrated the fog, only to slow down again as inertia sets in. It's neither a happy nor a sad piece of music, but nevertheless conveys human feelings very effectively through changes of tempo.

I have a theory about the general progression of piano playing over the last 150 years. I think that the greatest dramatists of the piano, in every era, have been the performers. Teachers have tended to be less dramatic, because the allure of the audience/performer relationship is not so central to their existence. So they have always taught the next generation to play a little less demonstratively than the previous one. And so it has gone on, from era to era. As an example, we no longer spread chords or melodies against accompaniments as we did, and indeed it is frowned upon, but in truth it simply means that we have one fewer colour in our palette.

Well, put that in your pipes and smoke it!
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