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Fun-Test: Two Sonatinas in C Major by Clementi Op.36(3). Who can catch the diffe (Read 10646 times)

Offline vladimirdounin

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Today two students of mine played the same Sonatina in C Major by Clementi, Op.36 (3). Student "A" played a bit slower, Student "B" a bit faster.

I felt that something else was different but I could not find out: what namely?

Maybe somebody can help and tell me: what is exactly the difference in their ways to play?

Which student do you like more?


Thank you in anticipation!

Vladimir Dounin

piano sheet music of Sonatina


Offline m

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Sorry, it is hard to catch any difference, considering there is only one recording ???

Edit: Oh I see--the second was added. Did you really could not find out what else was different besides of tempo, or is there some catch?

Offline vladimirdounin

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Sorry, it is hard to catch any difference, considering there is only one recording ???

Edit: Oh I see--the second was added. Did you really could not find out what else was different besides of tempo, or is there some catch?


I am sure that you will catch it better and precisely with your equipment and knowledge. I can only guess as you know.
 
All the best!

Vladimir


Offline m

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I am sure that you will catch it better and precisely with your equipment and knowledge. I can only guess as you know.
 

When it comes to interpretation questions, or something like difference between two performances, I rely much more on my ears, rather than on equipment ;). In fact, in those cases I have no idea how to use knobs or bottons, or which parameters to compare...

In any case, I am still awaiting for the complete picture of your "method". :-X

Offline vladimirdounin

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When it comes to interpretation questions, or something like difference between two performances, I rely much more on my ears, rather than on equipment ;). In fact, in those cases I have no idea how to use knobs or bottons, or which parameters to compare...

In any case, I am still awaiting for the complete picture of your "method". :-X

Absolutely the same parameters that you measured on "Fur Elise". It seems to me that a few bars of Subject Theme will show the greatest difference in "temperature".

However, you did not tell: which student do you like (dislike) more?

V.D.

Offline counterpoint

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Hello Mr.Dounin,

the differences between the two are very obvious to me / to my ears:
student A does accentuate syncopated, student B does accentuate on the beats.

But both versions do sound very bad to me.
There is no real legato playing. So that's the typical piano lesson performance: the notes are correct, the playing is a little overcorrect, and the feeling is: "It's so ugly"

So, that's my opinion.

I'm curious what you will tell us, what's the demonstration point of these recordings.

carefully
counterpoint
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline vladimirdounin

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the differences between the two are very obvious to me / to my ears:
student A does accentuate syncopated, student B does accentuate on the beats.

But both versions do sound very bad to me.
There is no real legato playing. So that's the typical piano lesson performance: the notes are correct, the playing is a little overcorrect, and the feeling is: "It's so ugly"

carefully
counterpoint

Dear Mr. Counterpoint,

Why are you so sure that legato is necessary and even appropriate for this Sonatina? Original text had no legato. What modern editors do to originals is a very sad story but we still have right  to disbelieve them.

 This piece was written  in 1797  and belongs obviously to Harpsychord style. Clementi and Mozart played, for example, "private competition" for Russian Czar Pavel 1 (when he and his wife travelled incognito as Count Seversky, and both performers played Harpsychord, not Piano. Piano was very far from decent quality even in Beethoven's time. Could Harpsychord play legato?

In any case, thank you for pointing accentuation!
Which one do you prefer in this Sonatina, by the way?

All the best!

Vladimir Dounin


Offline liszt-essence

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B sounds much better.

I would'nt be able to tell you why, in technical terms.

But musically, it just sounds better to my ears. More lyrical. More musical.

Offline counterpoint

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Of Clementi's playing in his youth, Moscheles wrote that it was "marked by a most beautiful legato, a supple touch in lively passages, and a most unfailing technique." Mozart may be said to have closed the old and Clementi to have founded the newer school of technique on the piano.

http://www.nndb.com/people/403/000093124/

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 In the well-documented contest between Mozart and Clementi shortly after the former's arrival in Vienna in 1781, the outcome was decidedly mixed, and may even have been in Clementi's favour. According to some reports, Mozart was clearly the more tasteful player, but Clementi used his impressive virtuosity and pervasive legato touch to great effect.
 
 http://www.robert-silverman.com/pages/OnMozart.htm
 
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 If we read Beethoven's letters, he is always talking about legato in some way or another and Mozart did too. Mozart was quite upset about his own piano playing because he hadn't mastered legato, he didn't quite have it. Clementi had a better legato than he (Mozart) did and he knew it.

 http://sitemaker.umich.edu/livingmusic/browse_interviews&mode=single&recordID=43370&nextMode=list

If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline counterpoint

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If they were played with nice legato scales, both versions would sound equally well for my ears. The left hand is ok in staccato style!
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline vladimirdounin

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If they were played with nice legato scales, both versions would sound equally well for my ears. The left hand is ok in staccato style!

Thank you very much for these interesting and well argumented comments. I feel myself lucky on this Forum to have such opponents as you!

All the best,

Vladimir.

Offline counterpoint

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Thank you very much for these interesting and well argumented comments. I feel myself lucky on this Forum to have such opponents as you!

All the best,

Vladimir.


Dear Mr.Dounin,

I do not see me as an "opponent" to you.

Counterpoints do not always move in contrary motion to their subject. It's more like a counterbalance than a counterstrike.  :D

Carefully
counterpoint
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline asyncopated

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B sounds much better.

I would'nt be able to tell you why, in technical terms.

But musically, it just sounds better to my ears. More lyrical. More musical.

I agree B sounds better.  A sounds like It's just a slowed down version of B which is the original playing. 

I'm going to assume that you did't actually just run it through a computer program to slow it down and keep the notes the same. 

In both versions, the touch and basic techinique is good, altough personally I would play it with more dynamic contrasts and phrasing.  Also In A, the padel sounds more muddy.  Padeling in B is excellent.  B sounds more fluid, with better lines that are less broken up in the phrase.

I should say I'm using a pair of crapy speakers on my laptop, so it might just be that.  I'll have a listen again later.
 

Offline xiaomai

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Hi Vladimirdounin,

I love the way you play the piano, I hope to learn something from you, I hope you'll keep teching us some ideas thanks! I listened to your arrangement of love story and it sounded wonderful and made me want to play it again after not playing it for years.


Mike.

Offline dichu_li

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We are thursty for more of your music ;D ;D ;D!!!

Offline jakbowtell

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both of your students play this well, but as a matter of opinion i much prefer dtudent A's interpretation.

:)
Music Qualifications:

Trinity Guildhall Grade 7 Piano
Trinity Guildhall Grade 2 Clarinet
Trinity Guildhall Grade 5 Theory Of Music :D

Offline teresa_b

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Obviously B played quite a bit faster, and I think the faster tempo is the better one for this piece.  I don't think either one played "badly" at all, for students.  I don't think it should be particularly legato, either.

I think both seemed to play a little unevenly when there were repeated notes. 

I vote for B.

Teresa

Offline marsippius

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Part of the difference is in the release of the notes.

The second example illustrates a better release method than the first, my opinion.

Greeting.

Offline totallyclassics

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okay..........I'm speaking as a student myself.....a 4th year adult student...I played this piece, and I can't really hear that much difference.....both lacked SOME musicality, but still were good....I don't think I played them any betteR! 

I'm ready though for the punch line!   I'm ready  for the test results and an explaination as to what your thoughts are!! PLEASE!!   This is driving me crazy!!

LOL! ;D

I think I like B ;D  It sounds a little more even, and I think the musical intent was there.....