OH MY GOODNESS!

[mad_max2024]

Why is it you want to keep discussing things that we will never agree on, unless maybe part of you wants to believe?

Well, there is only so much porn and ebay purchases a guy can make on the internet...
Eventually he will have to find something else to do or he'll get bored

And I don't think all christians are crazy, I've met a few rather rational and lucid ones that provided good arguments and that I loved discussing religion with. Unfortunately most of them just offer empty replies without a shred of thought behind them, with those it's like trying to talk to a brick wall.
Even pianistimo is not crazy, just fanatical in her beliefs...
Still, I think I occasionally learn a few things from these discussions from all sides and that's why I usually get in them.
I would also discuss islam or judaism or any other religion. Even if I knew nothing about it, I would speak my mind and try to understand it, so I wouldn't say this is a christian thing...
Also, I love psychology and religion is an extraordinary way to study it...

[prometheus]

I'm very impressed that you know SO many fundamentalist Christians that you have the right to diagnos their so called "problem". 

If you read back you will see that I used my words carefully. I said that Pianistimo appears through the internet in such a way that I will say that she may have schizophrenia. And then I said that many fundamentalists have features that a part of the symptoms of schizophrenia.

Obviously the person behind Pianistimo is very different from this Pianistimo character on pianoforum. Also, I said she 'may' because even if I was in the position to make a judgement on this I am not certified to do so.

And then maybe this is all an illusion because all fundamentalists seem to have mental disorders.

How much more nuance can one put in a paragraph?

I still can't figure out why us Christians on this forum never name call you guys, or say your "mental" because you don't believe what we believe,

Because there is no rational basis for it. Not that hat would stop all of them.
BTW, have you even seem someone name call Timothy?

If I claim that there are fairies that talk to me and that the world is flat then people will naturally critizise that.

...but that is all you seem to want to do to us.

How often did I speak truth and science to Pianistimo? No, you are now starting a discussion about my personality. If you want to defend the views of christians then do so. If you want to make a case for creationism or young earth, if you even believe that, then do so. But don't say I am only here to attack christians personally.

When we have a person that says reality is a hoax, that it is ok to kill children if god says so, that diseases are punishments of god, yes then people will call that an absurd idea. And if you look at the her very long and incoherent posts. And if you look at all the contradictions in her posts. And if you see her claim she has a relationship with something imaginary. And that she sees the devil at work everywhere then yes we have the start of a mental case as well.

We don't put you down all the time,

According to the bible you have to kill me, kill everyone in my city, including cattle, burn down the whole city I live in and make sure nothing will ever be build there again.

If you lived in a more primitive time, in a time where reason and science weren't that dominant then you would have killed me already. Or I would have killed you because of my ridiculous faith/religion.

so it's funny that the only thing you guys can seem to do is call us names and use the word "mental" in there!

I have been discussing Pianistimo for over three years on this forum. I think I only used it a few times. This is a poor straw man. And you are repeating yourself.

Maybe we scare you because you are starting to think we may be right on some issues.

Religion scares me in the sense that I described above. Religion is the enemy of civilisation. Look at what religion did in the dark ages. Look what it did to the arab/persian world in the 13th century.

  Maybe you are jealous because we have the "faith" that you don't.

Actually, I haven't even considered that.

Of course now you will reply to this and say I'm "mental" , "crazy" or whatever word you can come up with.

Have you ever read a post by me before?

I expect that! But there has to be SOME REASON you guys seem to want to keep discussing this with us, knowing we are not going to change our views.

Because religion is so dangerous. To you and me. You are the victim. You need help. Not because of a mental disease. But because of a mental virus. Most religious people are perfectly sane, except when it comes to relgion.

Why is it you want to keep discussing things that we will never agree on, unless maybe part of you wants to believe?

Compassion.

[counterpoint]

Why is it you want to keep discussing things that we will never agree on, unless maybe part of you wants to believe?

I can you tell you this clearly!

Imagine the situation, that one of pianistimo's or of your kids will turn out to be gay. Did you ever think about this possibility? How would you react. Could your gay kid come to you and talk with you about that. Will you drag them to a doctor? Or to a priest for exorzism?

What we are talking about is not funny at all. If your kid jumps from the bridge or it jumps under a train... what will you say? Satan has killed my daughter / son? Please think about it and don't talk such nonsense as Jesus will come and he will kill all evil people.

I'm very angry!

[jpianoflorida]

I totally disagree with most of your reponses, however I dont' have the time or energy to respond at the moment.      It would take way too long.   So all I will say is "peace".   Apparently at some point in your life you were burned by some church or religious group.   Is that where you views come from? You just didn't wake up one day and feel as negative against religion as you are.     I hope you find "peace" one day.  You can say you have it, but I don't buy that.   You have way too much negative emotion about Christianity.

[prometheus]

What if something much more likely happens. They turn out to be well educated and they become atheists.

There are many many atheists in the US bible belt that don't even dare to call themselves that. They are afraid of their parents, et al. There are also atheists that are thrown out of the family. There are many young people that are very angry with their parents and their priest because they have forced such a stupid idea on them. They feel betrayed, abused.

Pianistimo is forced by her religion to hate gay people. That used to be the black people.

And don't tell me she isn't forced to do so. She thinks her religion says that they are evil.

Also, what about teaching children to be afraid of god? Afraid of satan? Afraid of burning in hell forever? Isn't that cruel?


One more thing about atheism being an taboo and being second rate citizens in the US. There is not a single US senator that is openly an atheist. That is statistically very improbable.

[jpianoflorida]

I can you tell you this clearly!

Imagine the situation, that one of pianistimo's or of your kids will turn out to be gay. Did you ever think about this possibility? How would you react. Could your gay kid come to you and talk with you about that. Will you drag them to a doctor? Or to a priest for exorzism?

What we are talking about is not funny at all. If your kid jumps from the bridge or it jumps under a train... what will you say? Satan has killed my daughter / son? Please think about it and don't talk such nonsense as Jesus will come and he will kill all evil people.

I'm very angry!

why are you angry?   If my kid tells me his is "gay" i would accept that.    I don't blame satan for things.   why do you assume all Christians are a certain way? did you have a bad experience. YOU are generalizing.      You people are taking everying in the bible out of context to justify what you want it to.    

[prometheus]

Apparently at some point in your life you were burned by some church or religious group.   Is that where you views come from?

They come from history books and from the bible.

You just didn't wake up one day and feel as negative against religion as you are.     I hope you find "peace" one day.  You can say you have it, but I don't buy that.   You have way too much negative emotion about Christianity.

I was just trying to show why I think religion is bad and giving a strong example. It has nothing to do with me personally. Many many many people before me have made the same argument. If you are going to say something then say I am just repeating them without thinking.

Just read the bible. It's all in there. And then just look at the history books.


Then try to figure out why there is not as much rape and pillage as there used to be?

[jpianoflorida]

They come from history books and from the bible.

I was just trying to show why I think religion is bad and giving a strong example. It has nothing to do with me personally. Many many many people before me have made the same argument. If you are going to say something then say I am just repeating them without thinking.

Just read the bible. It's all in there. And then just look at the history books.


Then try to figure out why there is not as much rape and pillage as there used to be?

the difference is   You read the bible to get the negative and prove what you want it to.    I read the bible to study and take it "in context".     There is a difference.    I will just agree to disagree with you.   

[prometheus]

why are you angry?   If my kid tells me his is "gay" i would accept that.    I don't blame satan for things.   why do you assume all Christians are a certain way?

We were talking about Pianistimo. He clearly said 'Imagine the situation, that one of pianistimo's or of your kids will turn out to be gay.' That has nothing to do with you. You are generalising. You are assuming all christians are the same.

You people are taking everying in the bible out of context to justify what you want it to.   

Hahahaha. That's so silly an argument. You see it all the time. What do you mean?
Doesn't the bible teach that gay people are evil and should be killed?

And even if it doesn't, Pianostimo said that homosexuality is evil. So it has nothing to do with us interpreting the bible.

Hahaha. Learn to read the bible yourself. Isn't it your holy book. Most christians don't read the bible. Maybe you are one of them.

As for counterpoint being angry. Maybe his parents forced christianity on him. I was quite suprised to learn that many young americans are angry because they were taught a lie. I can't say I understand them because I was never a theist or a christian. I was never forced-fed religion.

What if your parents betrayed you? Wouldn't you be angry and dissapointed?

[prometheus]

the difference is   You read the bible to get the negative and prove what you want it to.    I read the bible to study and take it "in context".     There is a difference.    I will just agree to disagree with you.   

I don't read the bible to refute god or religion. I don't have to. It would be a lot nicer if God was as nice as Jesus is. But that is just not true. I cannot understand why the bible is such a cruel book.


And there is nothing 'in context' about it. Christians that defend God's cruelty in the bible just claim that god can do whatever he wants and be just and be good. Why? Because he is the creator.

It's like saying that if your mother decides to kill you it is 'just' and 'good'. That's just retarded logic. If you defend the killing of children described in the bible, like Pianistimo, then that is just cruel, primitive, dangerous, etc etc.

That has nothing to do with 'out-of-context'. You see such an argument all the time. Always when a atheist points out that the bible is what it is, a book written by people more primitive and barbaric than the Taliban, then chrisians say 'out of context'.

Makes no sense. I never took a single phrase from the bible to twist it around. Maybe you should also look up what 'out of context' means.

[jpianoflorida]

prometheus. there is no point discussing with you.      You have no understand of what we believe because you don't believe.    I'm not going to keep trying to get you to understand our true Christianity, because not matter what I say you will twist it.     As far as "american's being taught a lie". yeah, that's funny.   Anyway, I'm done with this discussion-it's pointless. Only a miracle would change your attitude, so I'll pray for that.

[jpianoflorida]

one last thing prometheus?

where did you come from? did you just form from some random thing in the universe, where do you think it all started?   did life just "happnen?"

[prometheus]

It happens in other parts of the world as well, probably. But I haven't heard many stories of angry young people. This is probably because in the US there is a combination of education and religion that creates this result. In Europe there is either not enough religion or not enough education. In the Middle East and Africa there is not enough education.


Kind of intellectually dishonest to make all kinds of claims and then refuse to back them up. Maybe you should take back all the things you said and you refuse to back up with arguments.

I am an open minded person. If you have a strong argument for something then I will agree.
I can follow arguments from educated theologians. I can't understand this American style christianity.

If I twisted some of the things you said then please point them out to me. Maybe you are right. Maybe you weren't careful enough with your words. This also often happens.


It can't be true that just because I am a nonbeliever when I haveto discuss religion I suddenly am not a rational person anymore.

[counterpoint]

As for counterpoint being angry. Maybe his parents forced christianity on him.

No, it were not my parents, who made look religion so bad. But I had quite a lot experiences with religious fanatics like pianistimo. I thought, I can see it from the funny side, but how it worked out yesterday and today, I can't laugh any more. I'm dismayed.

[prometheus]

one last thing prometheus?

where did you come from? did you just form from some random thing in the universe, where do you think it all started?   did life just "happnen?"

Is this a honest question?

I mean, I have seen this question come often from christians. It seems that in their eyes this somehow lays bear a major flaw in the position of nonbelievers.

Because this question has nothing to do with our discussion. And it never has. It always comes out of the blue. Like: "If you are right then where do we all come from."

Like one has to be able to answer that to have a point.


Many atheists have proposed that before atheism can replace religion it needs to replace the need for religious rituals and the religious 'answers' to questions like the one you proposed. Otherwise, people will just make up new religious rituals and religious answers.

Personally, I don't like that idea. It may be true. But I don't support the idea of actively trying to replace religion with something similar but that lacks faith and bigotry.

To answer the deepest point of your question. I have no idea. It baffles me. A beginning somewhere? Why is there even any matter? Etc.

But there is nothing religious about it. I can just accept that we don't know. The feeling to be baffled is actually quite intense and spiritual in it's own way. I don't see why I would want to make up something to neutralize the question(because religion doesn't answer it, it merely blocks it out).

Anyway, I find the ideas on this subject proposed by mainstream science quite convincing. Why? Because they are based on an open mind trying to find out how nature works without having any idea about how it should be.
And also because science is verifiable. I don't have to have faith. I can check the facts, check the math, check the logic, check the observations, etc.

[jpianoflorida]

No, it were not my parents, who made look religion so bad. But I had quite a lot experiences with religious fanatics like pianistimo. I thought, I can see it from the funny side, but how it worked out yesterday and today, I can't laugh any more. I'm dismayed.

And I can understand where you are coming from.      I know "religious fanatics" but I'm not one.  Maybe from this forum you put me in the category, but if you got to know me, you would find I'm one of the most accepting people you will meet.    I do have my strong convictions, but I'm pretty open minded.  So much of the bible is interpretation.    Like when you see a movie, does everyone get the exact same thing out of the same movie? No.   Some people draw out all the negative and some pull out the positive.       My question to you is the same as to prometheus(he hasn't answered yet).     Where do you think life began? where did the world come from? And I'm not setting you up or going to ridicule anything, I just want to understand what you think about that.

[jpianoflorida]

Is this a honest question?

I mean, I have seen this question come often from christians. It seems that in their eyes this somehow lays bear a major flaw in the position of nonbelievers.

Because this question has nothing to do with our discussion. And it never has. It always comes out of the blue. Like: "If you are right then where do we all come from."

Like one has to be able to answer that to have a point.


Many atheists have proposed that before atheism can replace religion it needs to replace the need for religious rituals and the religious 'answers' to questions like the one you proposed. Otherwise, people will just make up new religious rituals and religious answers.

Personally, I don't like that idea. It may be true. But I don't support the idea of actively trying to replace religion with something similar but that lacks faith and bigotry.

To answer the deepest point of your question. I have no idea. It baffles me. A beginning somewhere? Why is there even any matter? Etc.

But there is nothing religious about it. I can just accept that we don't know. The feeling to be baffled is actually quite intense and spiritual in it's own way. I don't see why I would want to make something up neutralize the question(because religion doesn't answer it, it merely blocks it out).

Anyway, I find the ideas on this subject proposed by mainstream science quite convincing. Why? Because they are based on an open mind trying to find out how nature works without having any idea about how it should be. And also because science is verifiable. I don't have to have faith. I can check the facts, check the math, check the logic, check the observations, etc.

yes..that was an honest question.    I just wanted to know.  It's not a set up. lol      I just want to understand why if people don't have the answer to that one, then why can't they accept that what Christians believe could be a possibility. As much of a possibiblity as anything else proposed.

[jpianoflorida]

Because this question has nothing to do with our discussion. And it never has. It always comes out of the blue. Like: "If you are right then where do we all come from."

Like one has to be able to answer that to have a point.



 

but that is the whole basis for the entire discussion.  The whole existence /non existence debate is based on the beggining of it all!    How can you say  that has nothing to do with our discussion?   IT IS the whole point of the discussion. 

[prometheus]

I don't understand your reasoning as expected.

How is what you are saying any different than saying that:"...why if people don't have the answer to that one, then why can't they accept that what Hindu believe could be a possibility. As much of a possibiblity as anything else proposed."


Actually, I consider a supernatural creator to be a possibility. Just a very very very unlikely one. I can't rule it out. Just as I can't rule out Zeus or Thor. And in the same sense I can't rule out a new god I will make up right now.

I don't see how the lack of human understanding is connected with the existence of supernatural creatures. Or how the lack of human understanding favours one religion or scientific theory over the other. Or how they make them mpre probable.

In the end you will need faith for god because there is no evidence. I don't have faith in anything.

Somehow many people seem to think that when it is impossible to disprove something we should assume the probablility of it either existing or not is 50:50. If that were true than you need to be 50:50 on many many many many different subjects. First off, all the gods that humans have ever convieved of. And then all those we haven't convieved of.

But also things like conspiracy theories. Can you really disprove that Elvis is still alive? Does that mean you need to take a 50:50 position? What about JFK, Hitler, and all those other people that are still supposed to be alive according to some conspiracy theories.

Can you really disprove that flying saucers don't cause grain circles? And if you can't does that mean you should take a 50:50 position?

This is also something many agnostics have problems understanding. But only when it comes to god, to a theistic god, to the christian god. Somehow many people believe that somehow a different kind of logic applies in the case of a omnipotent, omniscient god. They can never explain why this is.

[jpianoflorida]

 I don't have faith in anything.

and this is the entire point.    I have faith , you don't!   Therefore no matter what we discuss we we'll never agree!

[prometheus]

But one of us is wrong? Don't you think?

Anyway, I added something more reacting on the 'As much of a possibiblity as anything else proposed.'-part.

[jpianoflorida]

Yes...one of us has to be wrong.   Agreed.   But I'm not going to say you are wrong.  I'm just going to say that I believe I'm right.  But then the debate continues if I think I'm right then I must thing your are wrong, so it never ends! lol

[prometheus]

What is the basis for your faith? Why do you have faith?


Can't you only have faith in something that is probably wrong? I mean, having faith in something per definition means you have no evidence.

[jpianoflorida]

What is the basis for your faith? Why do you have faith?


Can't you only have faith in something that is probably wrong? I mean, having faith in something per definition means you have no evidence.

I can't explain faith like I can't explain a lot of things in this universe.   Can you explain "love'.   "falling in love"? these are things we can't quite explain.       I must log off the forum now, till next time.   I have to go make a living now.  When I retire I will just spend 8 hours a day on pianostreet lol      have a great day prometheus!

[prometheus]

Ok, I can kind of respect the way you justifiy your faith. But often religious people are dishonest. Claiming there is some tremendous evidence other people are somehow blind to. Claiming that all of science is just a hoax. Claiming that the earth is 6000 years old. Things like that.

That's not only wrong, I mean everyone can be wrong; its not a crime, but that is dishonest.


As for love and other products of the human mind. They can all be explained on their own level. Darwinism, hormones, neurons, etc. The existence of love is not really a mystery. The details are mysterious. But that is because the brain is such a complex machine. Maybe the most complex one in the universe. At least it is based on our current level of understanding. So that's not suprising nur a mystery.

[pianowelsh]

Even in deception there is some truth so to say someone must be wrong here is too narrow. Your right the OT does say that fornicators and the sexually immoral are to be stoned! that means people who do anything unnatural sexually and those who are into pornography!! How many people on this forum would have just got stones if we lived in OT times?? BUT the bible does not and have never taught that Christians are to hate homosexuals or that they are to kill eat or do anything else heinous with babies - prometheus your biblical understanding (not knowledge) is really exceptionally poor - read it again. The bible actually teaches that far from just stoning gays (as you crudely put it) we are ALL deserving of death because the world is infected with sin which separates us from God. That means in practical ways we can read the scriptures and not understand them, we can say we will do one thing and then do another etcetcetc there are millions of permutations. Lets be clear we all deserve death because we have all sinned against God. that is what the bible teaches (and its that which you are attacking so its that from which I will answer). Therefore whether you are gay, a murderer, a liar a cheat, an alcoholic, a wife beater, etcetcetc the list is endless..we all deserve death. That is why the law was given to show us what God's standard is. It is a 'schoolmaster to bring us to christ'. that is why we celebrate Christ Jesus's coming at Christmas because He is the one who was prophicied who would come and would bear the sins of the world in his body (Is55) making the payment for our sin. I use 'our' advisedly as although im aware that not everyone has a trust in Jesus Christ..His coming was as the angels tell 'for all mankind' - all meaning all! The only reason Christ could make that payment was because of who He was and because He never sinned. The OT picture of christ's sacrifice was a lamb without spot or blemish which was given for sin. However Christ came to make that payment once for all time because the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin. The problem (actually a blessing) with Jesus coming was that his own people (jews recieved him not) because the world was so entrenched in sin..they didnt recognise the saviours coming...and the situation remains the same today many do not acknowledge the messiah's coming. BUT verses like John 3:16/17 were given as promises and are still promises today that..God so loved the world that he gave his only born son, that whoever believes in him shall not die but have eternal life.  Its a great promise..But its conditional...'whoever believes in him' - there is a response that needs to be made to the Love God has shown on the cross in taking away our sin. if you dont respond to the offer you dont recieve it ....Same with a supermarket promotion..a response has to accompany it and you cant make that response without faith that its true. thats why so many supermarkets end up with a ton of surplace stock.people are wary of taking up the offer. But Jesus is faithfull. This is the one who never sinned - he never told a lie even once. He's not dead anymore..He is sitting at the right hand of God in heaven - having accomplished what he set out to do..the details are now working themselves out. The verse in Luke chapter one talks about his kingdom being an everlasting throne. He is in authority above all the kings and rulers of this world now and He has promised to come again and collect those who are his, those who have trusted in him..trust is anactive word and its an ongoing word, you trust and you keep trusting until faith turns to sight and we will see him. The bible does teach that every person on the planet whose ever lived will see Jesus. So oneday however jaded we maybe now we will see him. The question is what will your realtionship be like when you do meet?? Will it be oh yes I heard of you once? or will it be like being reunited with a much loved parent?? thats a serious question to ponder.

[prometheus]

How many people on this forum would have just got stones if we lived in OT times??

All of us.

Prometheus your biblical understanding (not knowledge) is really exceptionally poor - read it again. The bible actually teaches that far from just stoning gays (as you crudely put it) we are ALL deserving of death because the world is infected with sin which separates us from God.

So you are saying the bible isn't proposing hate towards homosexuals because according to the bible we should all be slaughtered?

Anyway, the bible clearly says that homosexuals are among the many people that should be killed. How am I misunderstanding?

Lets be clear we all deserve death because we have all sinned against God.

So will you kill your friends?

Are you trying to downplay murder or something? Was 9/11 'just'?

Therefore whether you are gay, a murderer, a liar a cheat, an alcoholic, a wife beater, etcetcetc the list is endless..we all deserve death.

What about living like Christ taught? Wouldn't that be better?

And aren't we a little better than cruel murderers? We do cause less suffering, do we? Isn't that important?


Ok now you are going on a tangent and I am kind of losing you. Are you saying a child murderer will go to heaven if he accepts Jesus? And that I will go to hell because I don't? Because we are all equally sinful because of original sin already? So no sin can be committed in this life?

That is a stupid idea. And I don't even think it deserves a refutation.

[pianowelsh]

Partly true and partly misunderstood. The bible is saying that a murderer who accepts Christ will go to heaven and a proud self righteous person will go to hell if they dont. And yes it would be better if we all lived as Christ taught but we cant actually do that without the Holy Spirit which is a gift from God to those who believe. Im NOT saying that a person who doesnt know God cant live an OK life morally but. The standard God sets is beyond what anyone could reach - miles beyond. If youve even even been angry at someone once(im sure even today that could be ture - or soon will be) then God says that that is like murder in your heart and to cross over even at that one point is enough to permanentl separate you from God. Thats why we NEED forgiveness from God and that is why Jesus came. For Christians its not being good enough and keeping the law that makes us right with God. Its trusting in the perfect work of Christ (God's son) to make us acceptible before a Holy God.  Im not saying that there is no such thing as sin and that God doesnt hate sin HE does - intensely..why else do you think his son had to die..it wasnt for his or our amusement. BUT there is redemption for ALL in the cross of Christ..which is why I rabbit on about it so often. If I was to 'kill my friends' as you propose..I would be violating the 10 commandments - not a good idea! Christians are not the ones who judge death or not. Jesus is Lord over death  - he judges froma righteous and not humanistic perspective.

[prometheus]

Partly true and partly misunderstood. The bible is saying that a murderer who accepts Christ will go to heaven and a proud self righteous person will go to hell if they dont. And yes it would be better if we all lived as Christ taught but we cant actually do that

Then I think that you are a christian with a particulary retarded dogma. And a dangerous one to say the least. Why don't you go and debate other christians and see how much they agree with you?

I think the bible tells you to follow the teachings of Christ, which means following the laws and commandments of the OT. And after you die God will judge you and then you will either suffer eternally in hell or live eternally in heaven.

Clearly you will be judged on your 'sins'. Christians claim sometimes they are somehow 'under grace' and they just need to accept Christ and they go automatically to heaven. That's just bullshit and a trick to convert weak-minded people. Even Paul in the bible tells you you need to follow the laws and commandments of the OT.

The bible clearly says otherwise. But why don't you debate other Christians. I don't believe Christ or God exists regardless of what is attributed to them by others.

If I was to 'kill my friends' as you propose..I would be violating the 10 commandments - not a good idea!

Do you only not kill your friends because god forbids it? And why would you want to follow gods laws?

[asyncopated]

I think that the argument here may boil down to one thing.  (I may be wrong.)

Can a person who truely believes in god be genuinly(?) hypocritical?

That is, commit a sin knowingly having truely believed in jesus, as pianowelsh said, we are not perfect so this must happen.  And after that repent the sin with sincerity.

In which case, christ will forgive all over again, and he is not allowed not to forgive because of the "rules" of the new testiment.

If you ask me if ted haggard will go to heaven or hell, my first opinion is that he will burn in hell (this is not a judgement, just an opinion according to what is allowed and not allowed by the bible, although I admit i dislike him intensely.) But he has obviously(?) turned back to god and must therefore go to heaven.

He is a essentially what i consider a genuine(?) hypocrite, in more ways than one, who's behaviour I find very, very shocking but who jesus has to accept as part of his flock.  How christ does that I don't really understand.  If this is not bad enough, what do you really need to do for christ to turn his back on you?


Just in case you don't know who ted haggard is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard

[pianowelsh]

Dear Prometheus - is there really any need for such foul language in reply to what was a totally civil post. What you fail to take into account in my statement is that a murderer who accepts christ, will renounce and turn from evil and follow Christ. A selfrighteous person wont because they neither accept Christ or see any need to because they arrogently think that they themselves are good enough to get inot heaven on their own. This couldnt be further from the truth... NOONE keeps the whole law as I think I was very clear to say therefroe the idea that you can by God off is heresy. The only way man can come before God is by Grace...'not by works lest anyman should boast'. Its not my warped idea. whole letters and books of the bible are actually devoted to this teaching and it is in agreement with old testament scripture too because it was by faith, by faith by faith the whole way not works (read hebrews 11). that is not to say a Christian will indulge in sinfull works Paul is VERY clear on that one 'shall we sin that grace may abound...certainly not!' The christian is fundamentally changed from what they used to be they serve Christ not satan and they donot conform to the works of the flesh (which are obvious). Asyncopated you seem to miss my point I am not saying that Christians should sin BUT if they do sin they have an advocate with Christ the righteous....'I write these things to you that you may not sin...but if you do...' A christian cannot loose their salvation because Christ made one payment for all sin - passed present and future. When you put your trust in him you are adopted into the family of God, given a new nature and the Holy spirit guards you as a seal to show you are God's (scripture teaches that much. However we are 'in the world' and Jesus knows that we will be tempted...that is why John says 'if we confess our sins He is faithfull and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Your dad wont kick you out becuase you did something naughty. He expects you not to be naughty but If you say sorry ask him to forgive you and promise not to go there again..He loves you he isnt going to say sorry you messed up once get out and never come back. Thats wrong even by our earthly standards - much more so when God has given the life of his own son to bring us into his family in the first place.   The problem you all seem to have is that you are missing God's love and scrutinising works. They did that in Jesus day too. They missed his coming

[prometheus]

Dear Prometheus - is there really any need for such foul language in reply to what was a totally civil post.

What? You are defending murder by saying they will be rewarded by god if they accept Christ just before they die.

I never used 'foul language' and if I do I have all the right to do so. If I use 'foul language', which is a totally subjective concept, and my post is thus not 'civil' it can have the same intellectual quality.

You fail to take in account the bible. As I said, discuss these theological subjects with other christians.

Also, I have a hard time reading your post since you don't use paragraphs.

[jpianoflorida]

Then I think that you are a christian with a particulary retarded dogma. And a dangerous one to say the least. Why don't you go and debate other christians and see how much they agree with you?

I think the bible tells you to follow the teachings of Christ, which means following the laws and commandments of the OT. And after you die God will judge you and then you will either suffer eternally in hell or live eternally in heaven.

Clearly you will be judged on your 'sins'. Christians claim sometimes they are somehow 'under grace' and they just need to accept Christ and they go automatically to heaven. That's just bullshit and a trick to convert weak-minded people. Even Paul in the bible tells you you need to follow the laws and commandments of the OT.

The bible clearly says otherwise. But why don't you debate other Christians. I don't believe Christ or God exists regardless of what is attributed to them by others.


Do you only not kill your friends because god forbids it? And why would you want to follow gods laws?

I was done  with this post, but can't resist.     Why are you so angry to use the words "bull_" etc.?     You are not trying to defend what you don't believe at all! you are trying to destroy what others believe.   There is a big difference.  Try this approach.   GIVE UP SOME FACTS THAT PROVE THERE IS NO GOD!  We are giving you the bible, history, many things.    Give us something that proves there is no GOD.  Can you do that?

You only want to find the "bad stuff" about religion.   Are you that way in life, do you only look for the negative? How about in your students? Do you look for good in them? OR just the bad?  I want to understand where you are coming from.   And also, why do you want so badly to try to convince Christians they are wrong? What happened in your life that made that a mission of yours? Because that is what you are doing.

[asyncopated]

 GIVE UP SOME FACTS THAT PROVE THERE IS NO GOD!

Just wondering. Do you mean god, or christ? (not that same thing unless you are christian.) Or that christ is god?

Anyway, prometheus has said this time and again, there is not proof for or against god.  Just as there is no (credible) proof for or against the flying speghetti monster.

You are asking him to give up a non-existant entity.   

I think the same can be said about the rest.  There is no proof that christ is god (or the son of god), and therefore faith is required. 

There is also the question of a personal god.  I may be very tempted to believe in a god, but find it very difficult to believe in a personal god like christ for various complicated reasons.

BTW, I'm not really defending prometheus, just stating fact, and regurgitating what he said in previous posts  -- Prometheus, be nice!

[pianowelsh]

Yeah I noticed you occassionally have problems with english too! You are insufferably rude - you cannot deny that you use words like 'bull#~_!' for literary effect. Which is against the rules of the forum.  I caution you for your own Good. Your idea that God rewards sin is fundamentally skewed and any Christian would see that much. You say you fail to take in account the Bible?!?  excuse me?!! 60% of my post is scriptural quotation and the rest is exposition. You fail to take in account God.. A much bigger problem when discussing Christianity.
You have no clue regarding the doctrines of Grace which the majority of Christians adhere to. grace is not a reward it is giving someone something that they dont deserve out of kindness.  God is not rewarding the murderer. God is seening that this messed up life has found that in the death of Christ there is forgiveness and that nothing he can do outside of Christ will work. He is seing that Christ has paid for that sin. The murderer now has a new identity - FREE from guilt because the payment has beem made. His eternal destiny is secure, not because he is good but because Christ is Good.  Now for the murderer there is the practical issue of restitition which may be really hard to deal with. BUT his standing before God is now clear.

[prometheus]

Why are you so angry to use the words "bull_" etc.?   

When something is bullshit or retarded then you should just be able to say so. It would be honest. It has nothing to do with angry. Rather than being angry I am amused by the fact that humans can have such strange ideas.

You are not trying to defend what you don't believe at all!

Uuh, double negative. This sentence makes no sense because of that.

you are trying to destroy what others believe.   There is a big difference.

Yes, I guess I am. And I invite you to do the same to me. Please.

Try this approach.   GIVE UP SOME FACTS THAT PROVE THERE IS NO GOD!

That's a logical impossibility. Give me some facts that prove I am not god. Or give me some facts that prove that [stupid idea X] is false.

We are giving you the bible, history, many things.

That include no evidence for god. Let alone proof.

Give us something that proves there is no GOD.  Can you do that?

Can't be done. Do you require proof to show there is no Zeus? That there is no Enlil? No Wodan? No Ishtar? No Isis? etc.

You don't. Logic doesn't work that way.

You only want to find the "bad stuff" about religion.

Religion can strenghten people to do good things.  But it can also strenghten people to do bad things while they believe they are doing something good.

Religion is just a philosophy of non-thinking. Religion promotes the idea that it is ok to have faith in ideas for which there is no evidence.

Are you that way in life, do you only look for the negative? How about in your students? Do you look for good in them? OR just the bad?  I want to understand where you are coming from.   And also, why do you want so badly to try to convince Christians they are wrong? What happened in your life that made that a mission of yours? Because that is what you are doing.

Ok let me try to answer this honestly. I have no students. I don't look for the bad things in people. I don't think that when I look at religion I only look at the bad things.

But you don't realise that most good effects that are attributed to religion don't actually come from religion. No ones morality comes from the bible. Now people like the pope may claim there cannot even be morality without a god. But that's just plain wrong.

I was raised with the myths of the bible and with science books by parents that never ever mentioned religion. The only time I come into contact with die hard theists is on tv, on the internet etc.
So there is nothing personal.

I am just amazed by it. Not by the stupidity but the absurdity. Especially when people claim that the earth is 6000 years old or when people twist themselves into all kinds of corners to have a point for religion. Or when they consciously seem to ignore an essential part of your argument. Or maybe somehow they cannot understand.

What I have against religion is that it is a primitive superstition and that it has thus no place in a modern society. I assosiate it with other primitive things. Like war, eating animals, slavery, racism, xenophobia. Things people did all the time and that have only recently, because of science and reason, been less prominent.

We can revert back to it. And I am trying to promote civilisation in all of its forms. Not just my form if you may think that.
But religion is a superstition and therefore it is primitive. It is a fact that when education raises, religion declines. I view religion as an antithesis of science and education. So either side has to go. I say get rid of religion. If you want to keep religion you will throw out science and education at some point.

If you really want to understand how people like me think then maybe you should read Dawkins newest book. I am not Dawkins and I haven't actually read it myself. But it will give you a good idea of how I think, if you are really that interested in it. I don't say that you have to but your message suggests that you are somewhat interested.

I am sure Dawkins is a lot smarter and more educated than I am.

[asyncopated]

Whilst we are on it, I find the concept of sin (or original sin), and forgiveness of sin very difficult to understand.

Maybe someone can write a mathmatical formula for calculating the amount of sin that one accumulates during one's life time so that we know if we go to heaven or hell.

I find it a bit ridiculous that god keeps a little black book putting in mark very time you are bad and a tick every time you are good (or even not at all, must mark all the bad things, forget the good things).

I find it difficult to understand that jesus by dying wipes the slate clean. How can he pay for everything past, present and future?  Does not make sense to me.  He must be a really rich guy?  What happened to compound interest?  I don't even believe in sin anyway, so no payment necessary. If you say he was just here to teach,  I understand, but no he pays for us (whatever pay may mean, for something I did not really buy into in the first place.)  How does this work?

It makes no sense to me whatsoever, I haven't been able to figure it out for over 20 years.

 

[jpianoflorida]

Whilst we are on it, I find the concept of sin (or original sin), and forgiveness of sin very difficult to understand.

Maybe someone can write a mathmatical formula for calculating the about of sin that one accumulates during one's life time so that we know if we go to heaven or hell.

I find it a bit ridiculous that god keeps a little back book putting in mark very time you are bad and a tick every time you are good (or even not at all, must make all the bad things, forget the good things).

I find it difficult to understand that jesus by dying wipes the slate clean. How can he pay for everything past, present and future?  Does not make sense to me.  The must be a really rich guy?  What happened to compound interest.  I don't even believe in sin anyway, so no payment necessary. If you say he was just here to teach,  I understand, but no he pays for us (whatever pay may mean, for something I did not really buy into in the first place.)  How does this work? It make no sense to me what so every, I haven't been able to figure it out for over 20 years.

 

you are right. It doesn't make logical sense.    But then again, how is it logical that we are here on this earth? we are breathing? we reproduce.     It's not about being logical , it's all about faith.   What do you have faith in? How do you think the world came into being? I don't claim to have all the answers, actually I have very few answers.   We just can't understand it all. It's not possible.

[prometheus]

But then again, how is it logical that we are here on this earth? we are breathing? we reproduce.     It's not about being logical , it's all about faith. 

It doesn't have to be logical. We already know it is a fact. We are here. You don't need faith for that.

To say that we need the same faith to know that we exist as we need to believe in god that just makes no sense to me.

[pianowelsh]

Your right noone said the things of God are easy to understand. But they are acceptable. we dont understand everything we do before we do it. As a kid we didnt work out all the laws of physics before sitting on a chair we just sat and hopefully it held us. Jesus wiping the slate clean is one of the hardest things to get our heads around because we dont deserve it..we really dont but he doesnt do things in half measures. When he saves someone he does the job properly..theres no ambiguity about it. He says this ones mine, and scrubs us up so when we see him we will by the Grace of God be like him.

prometheus - im disappointed in you. surely you know that something is only retarded or worse because you consider it to be so. Either that or its truth and you are wrong. Your post modernist thinking is leaking like a collander.

[asyncopated]

It's not about being logical , it's all about faith.   What do you have faith in?

I have faith in things with evidence.  For example I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning (there was a time when people questioned that).  Not only because it has risen every morning thus far (that should be good enough) but also because I understand how it basically works.

But then again, how is it logical that we are here on this earth? we are breathing? we reproduce.

 How do you think the world came into being? I don't claim to have all the answers, actually I have very few answers.   We just can't understand it all. It's not possible.

Yes there is some logic in that.  The theory of evolution attempts to explain some of it.  But not all of it.  We cannot explain the first instance of life, we cannot explain consciousness. 

However, that does not mean that we will never be able to explain it.  In fact, morden science has only arguably been around for 4000 years (since plato, aristotle and natural philosophy). I would even go further to say that the physical sciences is only about 500 years old.  Compared to the whole of human existance which is estimated to be 2,000,000 years old we are but babies.  No surprise we don't know much.

I agree we can't understand it all (very probably). Even within mathematics today, there are theorems that state (loosely) that we can't understand it all.  But if we don't try to understand it, we will be in a worse position than ever.  The only way to progress is to try. Of all things that may be god's will, this one i'm sure about. 

[prometheus]

prometheus - im disappointed in you. surely you know that something is only retarded or worse because you consider it to be so. Either that or its truth and you are wrong. Your post modernist thinking is leaking like a collander.

Are you sure you know wat postmodernism means? It is a kind of ambiguous 'field', if we can even call it that, but it is very different from the things I am saying. I quite often 'clash' with people that come from the postmodernist point of view.

Oh, and for the record. English is my third language, thank you. You are free to correct my mistakes.

I have faith in things with evidence.

I oppose this usage of the word 'faith' because it is confusing. Because a basic definition of the word is 'belief that is not based on proof'. If you say something like this to some christians they will run off with it and claim that you just said that your 'faith' in science is exactly the same as their faith in god.

It will confuse them even more.

[asyncopated]

I oppose this usage of the word 'faith' because it is confusing. Because a basic definition of the word is 'belief that is not based on proof'. If you say something like this to some christians they will run off with it and claim that you just said that your 'faith' in science is exactly the same as their faith in god.

It will confuse them even more.

Ok, I agree with you on this one.  I have erm.. have erm... believingness in things with evidence.

Oh, and for the record. English is my third language, thank you. You are free to correct my mistakes.

Just for the record -- and to be a bit of an assh*le, you don't use the term 'revert back' because 'revert' already implies 'back'.  'We can revert to it.' will do.  Now you are allowed to police me as well -- an eye for an eye ( another crazy concept ). 

Your right noone said the things of God are easy to understand. But they are acceptable.

This is where we disagree.  They are not always acceptable. The problem as i see it (you can correct me of course) is that we don't really know the will of god. We don't know all the time if we are truely closer or further from god (even with the bible).  God does not tell you in a clear way.  You have to guess and 'feel' if you further or nearer.

For example, people during the spanish inquisition did kiil in the name of god -- to be 'nearer' to him.  Today, some people teach thing like the earth is 6000 years old to be 'nearer' to him -- personally i don't believe that you are getting nearer, i think that these people for getting further, but I can't know for sure.  Other people go and ram planes into two towers to be 'nearer' to god (i know this is not a chirstian group, but still in the name of god.)  Although everyone says it's wrong, I really don't know if they got 'really close' to god for doing that.  There is simply no proper way to tell.

All of these are unacceptable to me.  I don't know why, and I can't tell you for sure if they are really acceptable or not by god.

[pianowelsh]

Yes I attended classes on postmodernism.  The problem you are having with this topic is that you see it therefore you believe it ie sun rising etc. Faith as defined by the bible is believing those things which are unseen. Now people claim that is lunacy but we sit on a chair although we cannot see the forces at work keeping it together. We also have historical accounts of faith ie Moses and the isrealites crossing the red sea so really  i dont see the problem with beleving things that are unseen - it seems this is harder from an athiestic stance. Im sorry If my beliefs sound irrational to you prometheus and i dont mean to poke at your english which is outstanding really but please accept your assertions that there is no God is to me as irrational as my assertion is to you that there is a God. So less of the, 'thats bull----' or 'retarded' etc please. Just because its a different view, because you may not be aware but to english first language speakers those terms are extremely disrespectfull.  Im sure it isnt your intention to be so.  Just as it isnt my intention to be disrespectfull to your views.

[pianistimo]

dear asyncopated,

you bring up a very good question for christians (btw, i don't feel much disagreement at all with pianowelsh - as i believe in grace, too - as i'm sure jpianoflorida does!) that why does God keep a book of life (those who have accepted his grace) and another book from which all others are judged from? 

because sin is sin.  He said it's sin.  if you sin it = death.  if God had no punishment for sin - people would not take him seriously.  but, we think 'think' that medical profession keeps us from death.  it delays the effects - it doesn't take it completely away.  when you finally die - according to the bible -there is the judgement.

ok. if you don't believe there is a God - and then you find out He's real - wouldn't it have been better to take a chance that He WAS real - than not?  i mean - how hard is it to accept Christ.  surely much less difficult than living a hard life due to loving sin.  if you break the law consistently - it means you love evil.  why would we want to harm our brother or sister?  if we are like Christ - then we try to do everything in our power to be like Him in every way.  that means to have love. 

so, as i see it - the answer to the question is in revelations.  there is not ONE book...but two books.  the book of life (which you WANT to be in) and the book from which the rest of the dead are judged.  they are judged by their own righteousness because they did not accept Christ's.  therefore - if the judgement is death - it is not any of their friends who are judging them (ie me, pianowelsh, jpflorida or any other 'fundamentalist' crazy) it is GOD!  God is ALL of our judgement.  and yet - He commutes the sentences for christians.  why?  because He is merciful - not HARSH.

[pianowelsh]

..yes but im not sure I would use the word chance pianistimo, I think we would agree that trusting in Jesus is a certain hope theres not really any chance element in it.  Its a word I know but It may give a different impression. How you doin? Have a Very Happy XMas pianistimo.

[pianistimo]

thank you!  as ahinton says - i may attempt to spend more time with the family. 

you are very sweet person - and i wish you a very peaceful and good time with your family, too!  will it ever snow?  we have no snow.  it is balmy and 60 plus degrees out today. 

hope everyone enjoys the holidays.  susan

[asyncopated]

that why does God keep a book of life (those who have accepted his grace) and another book from which all others are judged from?

Here is something else I don't understand.  How many rulers does god have to measure (judge) man by?

Here are a few scenarios.
1.  God has 1 ruler. All men a judge by an absolute ruler no matter what.  Here is the problem -- we don't exactly know what the rules are for every single action, with or without regards to intention.  Like in law, the rules are not set.  unlike law, we don't have a jury (social sturcture with god in it), or a system of precedence (the bible not withstanding because it can't be changed) under changing circumstances.

2.  God has many rulers, one for each group.  For example, if you are a christian, you get infinite bonus points for believing.  If you are a muslim you only get 500 bonus points because you believe in the wrong god, but you do believe in god. If you are an atheist, you get -1000 bonus points for being arrogant.

3.  God has many rulers, one for each individual.  This is because he cannot and does not clearly define what is sin and what is not (his word).  Sin is not measured by an absolute but by the moral standards set by your own being or mind.  So if you ram a plane into a tower, since you believe in god -10 points for each person killed +100000 points for doing it for god and truely believing it.

4.  God has no rulers and just puts people randomly in hell because heaven is getting over crowded.

5. God has no rulers and doesn't really care (this is the one idea i subscribe to).  Why would an omnipotent being care about the affairs of man?  Why does man think he is so important that an omnipotent being needs waste his energy(?) judging him?  I mean if you look at ants crawling around, and see one ant lazing around, another ant killing one of his brothers and yet another fronicating with the queen, would you go... no no no, that's morally wrong?  I know this is not a very good analogy, but I hope you get the main idea.

[asyncopated]

because sin is sin.  He said it's sin.  if you sin it = death. 

I don't see death as sin or as judgement.  I see it as a release from the human condition, which I am now part of, and hope that I will be no longer be after i die.  I pray that there is no conscious entity that carries on.

ok. if you don't believe there is a God - and then you find out He's real - wouldn't it have been better to take a chance that He WAS real - than not?  i mean - how hard is it to accept Christ.

Very very very hard.  I mean this is the final step, it can't get any harder. You expect me to say the creed, you know the one ... Credo in unum deum, patrem omnipotentem... and lie on every single word?! Be a hypocrite... even if I could lie to myself and pretend that i believe, go to church every sunday, pray and worship him, would god not just see through my charade?  If I believe in something like god, I believe that is the final word, there is no changing it.  That's part of the reason it's so difficult.  I try to live by truth.  I can't do what I don't understand or believe in fully.

How can you ask this question?  I don't even understand how as a christian you can even suggest something like this??!!!! God is not an alternative, or the last straw.  If you think he is, your peception of god is even more skewed than mine.
 

surely much less difficult than living a hard life due to loving sin.  if you break the law consistently - it means you love evil.  why would we want to harm our brother or sister?  if we are like Christ - then we try to do everything in our power to be like Him in every way.  that means to have love. 

Because god may have told you to do so.  The question is will he?  I believe that the bible illustrates quite clearly that he has done so in the past and therefore conceivably will do so now and in the future.  So if muslims run a plane through a building in gods name, it could very well be the word of god.  What makes you so sure it's not? 
   

[pianistimo]

but He HAS clearly defined what is sin and what is not.  people just don't want to take the time to go through and read it all - because some of it applies to another time and culture - and some of it applies to today.

for instance, would we go to 'hell' for wearing clothing that is mixed (wool and linen or something)?  no.  but, breathing properties of 100% cotton are sure to keep you much cooler than mixing it with nylon.  keeps you from excessive sweating.  this doesn't affect your neighbor - unless you're smelling to high heaven.  i'd say it's an important rule for pubecscent teenagers at least with their underwear.  actually, now that i think about it - probably everyone. 

now, adultery, or murder - i think there's at least all the points you once had - kinda eliminated in one fell swoop.  you start at zero again and have to work your way up.  saint paul killed christians, and he also had a 'thorn in the flesh.'  could it have been homosexual tendencies.  it could have been - or something physical as a pain or problem medically.  who knows?  but, there's some scripture that says Christ was tempted in all ways as we are - and resisted sinning.  if he COULD do it - and was human at that point - then we have an example to follow.

just as a military leader is best believed if he leads and doesn't hide behind his group.  now, i don't think religion is particularly militaristic (although i think sometimes i might accidentally give than impression of an 'iron fist' type belief) - but, i do think that if one has a leader they TRUST implicitly - they are more likely to follow orders.  i've seen and experienced so much of God's love in my life - that i do not go around fearing if God will be unfair to me.  He is and has been entirely fair to me.

i've had many things go 'wrong' in my life - but whenever i do not doubt -- i see a double blessing for the hurts and problems.  even when the problems are caused by our own sins.  God will always forgive.  always helps.  never abandons.  i believe satan to be the opposite.  he gets us into trouble.  leaves us there stranded.  or worse yet, dying.  spiritually and sometimes physically in the wrong environment (whether addictions or whatever).  so - there are two god's.  one that judges rightly - and one that makes one 'feel right' at the time - and terrible later.

sorry to be so preachy.  i know you don't need it.  you are way smarter than me - and i recognize it.  and, i take your questions as ones that are always very well thought and very valid.  maybe someone else has a different point of view.  that's ok, too.  not everyone thinks bonus points are fair (i mean 1000 for athiests wouldn't exactly be fair to christians - but then - we'd be told about the prodigal son - and just to shut up - while you get a party).