Hardest Mozart sonata?

[cygnusdei]

I hope this hasn't been polled

[iumonito]

Hm, good one.  I debated between 576, 310 and 333, although the Durnitz D major one is quite difficult as well.  I voted for 333 in the end.

[phil13]

I thought K.576 was considered the hardest. It's the only one Juilliard applicants are allowed to play.

Phil

[arensky]

As I look over the sonatas these come to mind; K.310 3rd mvt., K.332 3rd mvt., K.457,  K. 533 and K.576 (whole sonatas). But K.576 is probably the hardest technically overall, although for single movements the finales of 332, 310 and the first of 533 are very difficult imo.

[cygnusdei]

As I look over the sonatas these come to mind; K.310 3rd mvt., K.332 3rd mvt., K.457,  K. 533 and K.576 (whole sonatas). But K.576 is probably the hardest technically overall, although for single movements the finales of 332, 310 and the first of 533 are very difficult imo.

That's funny because the 3rd movement of K. 310 was the deal breaker for me - I thought the 2nd movement was the hardest, and the 1st movement quite tricky. I don't see the purported technical difficulties with K. 576 - care to enlighten? The first movement seems like an extended Bach gigue.

BTW I thought Mozart pulled all the stops for the 15-min variations in K. 284.

[arensky]

That's funny because the 3rd movement of K. 310 was the deal breaker for me - I thought the 2nd movement was the hardest, and the 1st movement quite tricky. I don't see the purported technical difficulties with K. 576 - care to enlighten? The first movement seems like an extended Bach gigue.

I've always found polyphonic playing difficult, so I find 533 and 576 the most difficult. The other movements I mentioned I find to be technically hard ( in a Mozart way), particularly 310 mvt 3 and 332 mvt. 3. The a minor was the first classical sonata I studied. I didn't find the slow mvt. too difficult, the ist is very challenging but that finale is a minefield. So easy to get off track, it doesn't sit well for me.

Heh if you don't find 576 to be difficult you should do it. 

[kd]

The other movements I mentioned I find to be technically hard ( in a Mozart way), particularly 310 mvt 3 and 332 mvt. 3. The a minor was the first classical sonata I studied. I didn't find the slow mvt. too difficult, the ist is very challenging but that finale is a minefield.

What makes the finale of K 310 so much harder than the 1st mvt? It isn't supposed to be extraordinarily fast after all.

[arensky]

What makes the finale of K 310 so much harder than the 1st mvt? It isn't supposed to be extraordinarily fast after all.

Well it is "presto". I like it to go at about half note= 116, which is pretty quick. And to do the figures at mm. 37-40 and all the other ones like that at that tempo smoothly is pretty difficult. No pedal, no piles of notes to hide in. It must be perfect.

[imbetter]

This isn't my oppinion this is a fact: K 576 IS the hardest sonata.

[verywellmister]

K576 is hardest, since you have so many fast runs with little to cover (I know this is common with all Mozart sonatas but the runs in this sonata are especially hard).
K310 is next, with its killer 3rd mvt with leaps.  but its the most beautiful
K284 has a tough 3rd mvt.  K533 has tough runs and polyphony.  I have worked on K333 and its not that hard.

For something very hard to play well, look at the Rondo in a minor, K.511, which has a different kind of difficulty.

[kd]

K310 is next, with its killer 3rd mvt with leaps.

So what tempo do you prefer for this movement? Personally I don't like it faster than 100-104 for a half note. Otherwise it becomes too furious and stormy for my taste (like some too fast performances of the Tempest 3rd mvt) and it isn't written in 16ths like other Presto movements in Mozart after all. Sure, at 116 it must become quite hard.

but its the most beautiful

Agreed. This sonata will certainly appear in my repertoire at some point.

[amelialw]

what is so hard about his Sonata in D K576? it really is'nt that hard at all. The hardest ones are definately K 457& 310 both of which the 3rd movements are the hardest of all. Besides that, those are the only 2 in minor keys and my teacher said they require a whole new level of maturity and understanding.

[amelialw]

here you go, this is about Mozart's Sonata in c minor
“Without question this is the most important of all Mozart’s pianoforte sonatas. Surpassing all the others by reason of the fire and passion which, to its last note, breathe through it, it foreshadows the pianoforte sonata, as it was destined to become in the hands of Beethoven.”

  I'm so glad that I learnt it!

[daniloperusina]

I don't agree.
That statement only suggests that the author is a bigger fan of Beethoven than of Mozart. The more Beethovenian Mozart sounds, the more important..
If there's one field of composition where Beethoven seems utterly unimpressed by Mozart, it must be the piano sonata. In the concertos, I think he studies Mozart for the first two, but don't really reach his hight. For the third he decides to invent something on his own instead. And the rest is...history.

Fire and passion don't have to mean minor key composition. Are those two qualities lacking in his other sonatas? When I think of the c-minor sonata, I think of Mozart dealing with minor key composition, and bringing in the usual fire and passion that are there in his major key music too.

[amelialw]

that's not true at all...a much deeper depth of understanding is required to play mozart's 2 minor-key sonatas. If you take his C minor sonata and his D major sonata they have a different depth. You can't just make a statement that Beethoven was unimpressed by Mozart's Sonatas, Beethoven even wanted to study under Mozart but Mozart was so ill at that time.

You misunderstood me, I did'nt place that statement to indicate that the c-minor sonata is the hardest one, it indicates simply that it is the most important of all.

[amelialw]

and the c minor and a minor ones were a step up ahead, they were the ones that lead to Beethoven's sonatas, if you go and play through them you'll be able to see that

[daniloperusina]

If you want to look at what may have influenced Beethoven in his early sonatas, you need to look at Haydn and Clementi, not Mozart.
Mozart was not ill, Beethoven's mother was, causing him to return prematurely to Bonn to take care of her. Therefore the lessons were cut short. He was barely 16 at the time, but already not influenced by Mozart. He wanted more 'pianistic excitement' a'la Clementi in his pianomusic. There are statements supposedly by Beethoven where he dismissed Mozart's style of playing as 'fine style but no legato'.

Again, minor key doesn't mean more depth. This is a juvenile misunderstanding. The a minor and c minor are not greater or deeper than for example the last D major. They have a different expression because they are minor key compositions.

True, they seem almost shockingly full of anxiety, but that has everything to do with Mozart's genius and nothing with Beethoven's.

They do not lead up to Beethoven's sonatas. Have you looked at Clementi's sonatas? Please do! The connection to Beethoven's early sonatas is almost plainly obvious.

(Yes I've played K281, 282, 310, 311, 330, 331, 332, 333, 457(+fantasy), 533/494, 570 & 576 as well as Lvb op 2:1, 2:2,14:1, 27:2, 31:2, 53 & 109) 

[amelialw]

Again, minor key doesn't mean more depth. This is a juvenile misunderstanding. The a minor and c minor are not greater or deeper than for example the last D major. They have a different expression because they are minor key compositions.

How dare you... his minor key sonatas are greater in depth

This is a juvenile misunderstanding.

You really are too mucyh...never think you can insult me like that!

[amelialw]

Mozart was ill, he was already dying when Beethoven wanted to be his student...I asked my teacher you know!! Beethoven's music has a mix of his own character plus Mozart's and Haydn's...

I have know all of clementi's sonatas and if you know Haydn's sonatas, Haydn's style obviously influenced Beethoven's style

[daniloperusina]

I'm sure your teacher is a nice person, but you both need to look it up. Any Mozart biography will tell you. The year was 1787, april. Beethoven's mother died in july that year. Mozart was in perfect health. He had over 4 years still to live. There are no records that they met, only a few scattered anecdotes.

Anyway, this is leading nowhere, so I'll rest my case..

[amelialw]

I did'nt say any specific year...the yr my teacher said that beethoven actually wanted to study with mozart but by the time he wanted too it was too late, so its just a misunderstanding.anyway that's all

[mcgillcomposer]

I'm sure your teacher is a nice person, but you both need to look it up. Any Mozart biography will tell you. The year was 1787, april. Beethoven's mother died in july that year. Mozart was in perfect health. He had over 4 years still to live. There are no records that they met, only a few scattered anecdotes.

Anyway, this is leading nowhere, so I'll rest my case..

I've got to say, daniloperusina is right. I can cite a few sources if you want verification.

[daniloperusina]

...beethoven actually wanted to study with mozart but by the time he wanted too it was too late..

This is true, in the sense that it was too late when he returned to Vienna in 1792. Mozart had been dead for a year.

Thanks, mcgillcomposer!