Invitation to participate in the the first six of the Online Piano Open for 2007

[iumonito]

Hi all,

In another thread the idea came about of having a monthly friendly competition among the interested members of this forum, to post one piece of music, deadline 11:59 local time on the last day of the month.

There was some discussion about format, and an early consensus that one mandatory piece would be it.  If this catches our collective interest, of course we can vary the format in the future.

Well, the new year is nigh upon us, and so that people have time to prepare if there is inclination, here are the 6 pieces for January - June.

Enjoy your practice!

January:  Debussy: L'Isle Joyeuse
February: Mozart-Thalberg: Voi Che Sapete
March:  Chopin:  Ballade #4
April:  Rachmaninov: Prelude Op. 23 # 5
May:  Bethoven:  Sonata Op. 53
June:  Bach:  Prelude and Fugue in D Major, Book I

I am farily certain all this music is available in the site (the Mozart-Thalberg in the sheet music request section).

[liszt-essence]

No liszt?

[iumonito]

OK, Liszt is for July.  Should we make it a fixed piece (for example Mephisto Waltz) or free (one of more works by Franz Liszt including transcriptions by Liszt and original compositions)?

[liszt-essence]

Everything else is fixed..

I intuitively felt that the one liszt piece should be:


Mazeppa !

 

[pianistimo]

how long does it typically take to learn debussy's 'isle of joy.'  i'm afraid that if i tried to learn it in one month - it would be awful.  two months - sightreading quality.  three months  - ok.  four months - getting there  five months - almost there  six months - right on. 

now, as i see it...these pieces MIGHT already be in your repertoire.  may we ask your teacher, iumoto?  fair is fair - everyone must start from square one.  of course, some people (probably you) already have quite an extensive repertoire- so in that case - we find what isn't in their repertoire (which is even worse and harder).

how about you play 'the isle of joy' and i'll play saint saens 'allegro appasionata'  (being that i haven't played it in years - but it sort of fits my fingers well - and i might just get it into shape again.'

[iumonito]

I am delighted this is catching your interest.

July Mazzeppa sounds great.  I don't play it, but I am sure there are many that do.

The spirit behind the random list I put as January to June is pieces that many people may know (or should, like Mozart-Thalberg), avoiding too much repetition of the same type of repertoire, and mixing harder and more accessible pieces.  My original idea was one to four pieces a month, one from CPE Bach and earlier, one from CPE Bach to Beethoven, one from after Beethoven to before Debussy, and one from Debussy to today.  For composers hard to categorize, put them where you think you should (I put my Albeniz before Debussy and my Weber after Beethoven, but no limitations in that sense).  You choose whether in any given month you post 0-4.

But then, there was the concept that it is hard to compare the playing in different works.  Hence the single piece list.

I like the idea either way, and perhaps what we should do is have them both.

I do not have a particularly large repertoire, and more importantly I do not keep it in shape, although these days I am playing Debussy and I do plan to be in fine shape by January 31 to give anyone interested 9 minutes of L'Isle Joyeuse how you have never heard it before.    (I play it really much slower than anything you hear in recordings.  It makes no sense to me anymore at a 5 minute clip).

What about August: Amy Beach Op. 83 and September: Saint-Saens Op. 70 (that's the one you mean, right?)?

I am trying to avoid back to back pieces from the same period.

I do play everything I listed Jan to June (except the Mozart-Thalberg, which I should), but I would be very surprised with myself if I posted for all of them, as I am unable to keep a lot of repertoire in fingers.  I do not play Mazzeppa, Beach or Saint-Saens, but this would be great motivation to read them.

Do it.  It will be fun.

[pianistimo]

iumoto, i have a problem - i can practice - but where do i record myself without it costing an arm and a leg.  if i come to your location - can you record me?  i know, terrible question.  but, it's true. i haven't a clue how to record myself.  i mean - i have a cell phone.  would that do?  but, what about sound?  how much sound will a cell phone record?  and what about picture quality.  say i get all dressed up - and then it makes me look like one of those illusion mirrors.  makes my hands huge and my head small.  well, anyways - these are a few of my questions. 

ok.  i'll take a look at this supposed 'isle of joy.'  i'm afraid it's going to be a night of terror.  wait!  i'm no longer a gold member - so i can't get it unless you post it.  sorry for the bother.   

[iumonito]

Gold membership is the way to go.  No bother, but I think there is a rule not posting materials available in the site.  Otherwise, requesting in the sheet music section would be the way to go.

Regarding recording, there is a large number of inexpensive digital recording devices on the market.  I am asking Santa for an Edirol R-09.

In the meantime, if you plug a microphone to your computer, you can download audacity for free (get the MP3 add-on, also free) and it is easier to use than playing minesweeper (definitely easier than L'Isle Joyeuse).

[gruffalo]

just out of interest, may i ask (except for the choice of mazeppa) how the pieces were selected?

Gruff

[pianistimo]

the only way to truly prove it is you playing and it is i playing is to come to your location.  that way - i will know - without a doubt - it is you.  and same for you - to know it is i.  therefore - i am nt getting the music until i know the competition. 

and if santa gives you that edirol - i can get a similar quality recording.  after all, recording is half the sound.  (and the piano).  at competitions everyone plays the same pianos.  or has a choice of one of three.

[iumonito]

just out of interest, may i ask (except for the choice of mazeppa) how the pieces were selected?

Gruff

I picked them out.  I am not opposed to something more democratic, and as I mentioned before, I am all for free choices rather than prescribed pieces.

There will be recording variance.  I don't like my Schnabel or Edwin Fisher any less because of the difference in sound quality with, say, such jewell as Gilels late Beethoven sonatas.  I am not taking this any more seriously than just comparing performances in the audition room.

What do you all think?  Should we change the format?  Should we define our goals?

[pianistimo]

the fun of piano, for me, is listening live.  but, i suppose the defined goals here are recordings - of which - i am terrible to even know where to plug a mic in or what to do about things. i am afraid the sound quality will be very bad.  and, of course, just learning 'the isle of joy' will be a tough call for the end of january.  i think i shall practice only the first couple of pages.  it will be a short - but good recording - on a bad machine.  and , who knows - it might be the end of me.  i suppose much better than a bomb.  self destruction as it were.

[brahmsian]

This seems like a good idea. I'm in.

[pianistimo]

ok.  i renewed my gold membership and have duly printed out this wretched piece of music.  dare i ask for help?  i see a trill -starting on a C# and yet there is a sharp sign in front of the trill.  now, don't trick me - am i supposed to play C# to D#.  be honest.  i don't want this recording to sound bad from the start. 

ps oh.  yes.  i remember this piece.  i might be able to play more than two pages.  i never played it before - but i've heard it.  now, about the recording.  please let me record on something better than my cell phone.

and, please don't hold back on anything you might want to share with us about this piece.  i am on that right now. my daughter is sleeping, so i can't practice.  i will now attempt to find scholarly information and see if that will encourage my brain to memorize most of the 13 pages (13 PAGES by january what?)   

[pianistimo]

ok.  here's what i've come up with so far:  debussy had a little jaunt to jersey with his flame emma bardac (of whom ended up getting pregnant - possibly here?) and the isle of jersey summertime escapade was in 1904.  now, this isle has been painted by watteau as 'l'embarquement pour Cythere' and was painted in 1717.  it's picturesque landscape and people represented the emphemeralness of love and that it is fated to pass like life itself.  (michael levy has argued that the pilgrims are not, infact, embarking for Cythera, the mythical birthplace of aphrodite/venus, but are preparing to leave it.)

anyways, 'certain pages of 'l'isle of joyeuse' manuscripts are coded and even direct love messages for emma.  he wrote, 'these bars belong to madame bardac (ppm = petite mienne = or little darling) who dictated them to me one tuesday in June 1904.'  i believe the dictation method was in bed.  but, nevermind my presumptions.  in any case - if we look at mythology, venus the roman goddess of love, was born from a seashell off the island of cythera.

now i shall look for encoded messages.  (am i really schizo?) ok.  i am looking in particular for the letters C (cythia) E (venus=emma) A (last letter of cythera) and, of course, B for bardac.  brahms did plenty of this for clara.  this shouldn't be any different.  i suppose a letter in handwriting is too easy to figure - but one in music - means more romantic love.  one that is - not distinctive enough to lose in love - but distinctive enough to remain forever - for everyone who sees this music everafter.   

[pianistimo]

ok.  i think he and miss bardac had 'a little outside.'  as indicated by 'un peu en dehors'

then they went and had a little inside, as indicated by 'un peu eede'  this time it was slower.  maybe like 'eeden.'  can't find the word eede in french - but did find 'eeden.'

the third time - they decided to go 'a tempo' but later a little 'expressive of outdoors' again - expressif et en dichors.

the fourth time, she seduced him with a little 'subito.'

and the fifth time - outdoors again.

and then - well the last page - quite animated 'jusqu a la fin'  to the end.  very animated up until the end.  (does that mean 'until' the end or to the end?)

now what i can't figure out - is why the bowl of soup at the beginning?  'modere et tres souple.'  - play very supple?  the french are so hard to figure out.

[pianistimo]

frederick van eeden coined the word 'lucid' dreaming.  perhaps debussy was referring to that with the word 'eede.'  what does this mean?  did debussy know this frederik van eeden?  he was a psychiatrist who lived during that time - and in fact published many writings as well.  one of his novels 'the cool lakes of the dead' was about the struggle of a woman addicted to morphine and followed her as she deteriorated physically and mentally.  this would be another interpretation of an 'isle of joy.'

you know, i think debussy was very much  like a painter or writer.  he added little touches here and there of double entendre and unusual things to each of his pieces of  music. 

[thalbergmad]

For pities sake woman, we want you to play it not write a 600 page essay.

Go and practise.

[pianistimo]

ok.  thal. i went and practiced.  now, as usual - i have some more questions.  does anyone have debussy's fingering?

this is my fingering for the first two bars (trill on 2-3-2-3-etc. until that seemingly wretched note of Cnatural - i found that lh thumb on that note helps tremendously - using 1 - as it does for the note of Bb (lh 2) and also Ab (lh3).  it's a sort of X with the thumbs, using the lh thumb under the right and sort of resting on each other. 

this is indicative of love from the very beginning.  this X with the thumbs.  anyone try it?  is this debussy's fingering, too? 

[pianistimo]

now, for the third measure - we have a right hand figuration coming down from B-natural (within beat four) and it seems logical that this is the left hand returning from a cross-over (lh 1234) but omitting the D# because the rh already takes that note in the trill.

is this sounding ok?

[pianistimo]

now, in measure 13 we have this 6/8 thing going on.  i find it much easier to take (on the 'and' of the third beat) the left hand F# with the right hand (combining it with the 6/8 stuff), the F-natural with the left hand, and the E with the left hand. 

in measure 14 the left hand F# with the right hand, the F-natural with the left hand, the G# with the right hand,  the G-natural with the left hand, the A# with the right hand, the A-natural with left hand, the B# with right hand, and the B-natural with left. (also the note right before the B natural - up in the rh territory (G#) with the left hand.

does anyone understand what i mean? 

[pianistimo]

walter gieseking supposedly has the best recording of this piece.  is this true?  also, his student werner hass supposedly played it even better (or as good?).  maybe i'm getting this from a biased source.  has anyone heard either pianist play this piece?

[pianistimo]

dear iumoto,

i'm really glad you picked this piece, after all.  i might not be performance ready at the end of january - but am enjoying learning this piece a lot more than i thought.  haven't played that much debussy - excepting an arabesque and another piece - and then more faure and saint-saens.  but, i actually am starting to be able to appreciate debussy more.  the harmonies and everything.  especially now, the rhythms.

i see we have a lot of movement between the triplets (1 and a...) and the four sixteenth-notes (1 e and a) which are then subdivided into two groups of thirty-second notes.

i've worked it to page four and am attempting some metronome work - and then after i do that - without the metronome.  debussy is so flowing - but to get the right beats with the right or left hand doing triplets while the other is doing the thirty-second notes - is kinda tricky.  am feeling the flow.

i found some more fingering that seems to work - but not sure it's the ultimate best.  am still waiting to see if i hit any kind of gold mine with finding debussy's own fingering.  it has to be around somewhere.  at measure 15 (retenu tempo) i have on the second beat in the rh (my fingering) 431, 2 3 4 , 31 (taking E in the middle voice with thumb), 4 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 5 3 2

then m. 16  on beat 3 :  31 (taking E in middle voice with thumb), 45432123532
m. 17 - 42, 5 4 3 4 5 , 42, 5 4 31 4 5  etc.

m. 18 - 53, blh blah, until (beat 2) - 31, 2 1 2 3 4 -  (beat 3) 53  (beat 4) 31 2 1 2 3 4  - i use the 2 finger onthe C# and it seems to work well.

m. 19 - 51, 4 3 2 3 4 5...

this piece is tricky because there are middle notes to hold and obviously this whole note G - for the entire measure.  good finger exercise. 

do you have any better fingering? 

[arensky]

walter gieseking supposedly has the best recording of this piece.  is this true?  also, his student werner hass supposedly played it even better (or as good?).  maybe i'm getting this from a biased source.  has anyone heard either pianist play this piece?

Horowitz 

[iumonito]

Horowitz 

Yeah, Horowitz's is fabulous.  Gieseking and Hass are an acquired taste that I have not acquired.  I am at a funny spot with this, because I recently have entirely scrapped my previous interpretation, and am now playing this much closer to L'Apre-Midi d'une Faune than to the Lisztian show-stopper I used to think this piece was.

As to practice details, I am with Debussy.  "Find your own fingerings."  The quote is from the preface of his etudes.  If you get your hands on the Alfred edition, I think there are some original fingerings there.  Even more interesting, I wonder whether we could get our hands on the manuscript.  I'll post in sheet music request and link it here if we get a response.

I'm glad you are enjoying the practice.

IU Monito.

[el nino]

great idea! so when we are done we just upload it on forum or?

[pianistimo]

this is fun.  ok. alfred edition and possibly seeing original manuscript.  thal is probably 'onto' me - because i am more likely to gain a sense of perspective of where i am amongst all these first rate pianists - and yet - i like the challenge.  i mean, if noone is better than you - you have nothing to lose.  i have everything to lose - but it's more fun.  actually, seeing the manuscript would make me happy right there. 

here's a site that explains some fingering of other pieces of debussy's works (the doll's lullaby) according to allen reiser.  www.allenreiser.com/soundthoughts-spring-2006.html

wondering if the etudes would also bring insight.  debussy must have written them to wean people off of typical fingerings.

[etudes]

July 2007 Alkan Comme Le Vent? 

[opus10no2]

July 2007 Alkan Comme Le Vent? 

Concur. 

[avetma]

I think two months are little too short period to learn L'Isle Joyeuse. What about January: Liszt - Un Sospiro?

Just a suggestion.

[pianistimo]

ooh.  i played that before.  it might be a bit better.  the thing is - i hate reworking pieces right now - because i need more repertoire.

[iumonito]

This is wonderful, but let's see if people come through.

Here is the current line up:

January:  Debussy: L'Isle Joyeuse
February: Mozart-Thalberg: Voi Che Sapete
March:  Chopin:  Ballade #4
April:  Rachmaninov: Prelude Op. 23 # 5
May:  Bethoven:  Sonata Op. 53
June:  Bach:  Prelude and Fugue in D Major, Book I
July: Liszt: Mazeppa (EET #4)
August:  Amy Beach Op. 83
September: Saint-Saens Op 70
October: Alkan Op 39 # 1  (Sorry, July was already designated)
November: Liszt Un Sospiro  (Lovely piece, but if we are to have designated pieces, I feel we cannot change them).
December:  Crumb: Little Suite for Christmas, A.D. 1979  (I am adding this out of the blue to close the year, I don't play it and the score is not in the site, but I am dying to read it having heard it in a Cliburn clip played by Andy Russo).

I say let's not plan further than one year ahead.  If this gets going for real, I am fairly certain mid year we will want to move to an open format and have at least 4 categories based on chronology of composition).

Happy Holidays,
IU Monito

[avetma]

I am sorry, but am I the only one who thinks that this system isn't good? You are the only one who set up the rules and compositions, and list of compositions isn't really the best.

My idea was first to sign all competitors, and then every of us should submit few compositions as suggestion. I think that is the best way to attract as much competitors as possible.

What do you think?

[el nino]

i definitely agree. if this system stays i think there will be very small number of competitors...

[iumonito]

I think that's a great idea.  Although, again, I think the whole resistance to free choice stems from wanting to be able to compare the playing in a particular piece.

I personally like much better the original format I proposed:

Submit one to four recordings (one maximum per category) by the end of the month, your local time.  Categories are 1. before CPE Bach, 2. CPE Bach and after, up to Beethoven, 3. After Beethoven up to before Debussy, 4. Debussy and after.  You get to choose where to put borderline composers (for example, I would put my Rachmaninov in the category 3, even though most of his music was composed after Debussy's earliest compositions).

That format is not incompatible with the pieces I listed, as even if you have invested time in learning them, you can still submit them.

Somebody please set up a poll (I don't know how) so that those interested can measure where is our collective thinking.

I am glad we have a few people interested in this.  Cheers!

[el nino]

ok,nice,but still what i proposed is a little different. i think we should nominate some pieces and than the one which gets the biggest number of votes will be the one.

[iumonito]

Ah, I see.

I got over my computer illiteracy and added a poll that I hope reflects your idea, which sounds very democratic to me.  I feel, though we need some closure too.  What's a good dealine for the repertoire to be set?  I would say January 1, 2007.

I am casting my vote for free repertoire, as that is my preferred format.

If you list pieces here, I'll add them to the poll and keep them running for future months.

[pianistimo]

i am a follower.  i have already sight read enough of 'the isle of joy' to find the harmonies and rhythms very intrueging.  so, despite if i sound terrible at the end of january...i am sticking with the plan.

i like that last note.  the very last note on the piano.  cool.  one of the few pieces besides a prokofiev concerto or something.  i think the saint-saens allegro appassionata actually might have done that, too, somewheres.  it's been a few years since i've played it.

[pianistimo]

iumonito,  did you get that edirol you wanted?  where am i going to record myself?  help.  the i-pod doesn't work very well.  do you know of any recording studios that don't charge too much for recording a few piano pieces (near collegeville).  if i knew of one - i'd go back to them every few months.  one place i found - but doesn't have a piano.

[iumonito]

I plan to lock the voting today at 11:59 pm US EST.  It appears that the piece of the month will be Un Sospiro, in spite of my lobbying for a more open format.

For those voting for L'Isle Joyeuse, you should know I plan to post mine anyway, so we can still compare notes if you decide to do the same.

Cheers.

P.S.  I have not gotten the Edirol yet, so chances are I will be using my laptop again.  You just need a mic, which you can get cheaply at Radio Shack or similar.

[pianistimo]

hmm.  i'm so confused about this recording bit.  now, i hear 'plug a mic into a laptop.'  why can't i think of that?

well, i'm practicing 'the isle of joy' and now 'un sospiro.'  maybe i'll play both.  equally bad.  but, hey - it's my first recording of the year.  it can only get better.  it better not be a bad recording with a bad performance.  that would be really bad. 

who will be minding the clock?  or is this not a timed performance.  i already know i'll be lagging behind you - but hey - is there any prize for just competing.  a consolation prize of sorts?  like a certificate that says 'you made it to the end of the piece.' 

seriously - i think i sound halfway ok right now.  it's just the last four pages or so of the 'isle of joy' slow way down.  but, i'm getting the ideas and finger placements, and harmonies, etc.  so i know what to expect.  i think i could con anyone who didn't play the piano into saying - 'that sounds good.'

dynamics are on the agenda this week.  and also, bringing out those lovely inner voices with the quarter notes held as opposed to the faster notes above.

[iumonito]

4 forum members expressed interest in having Liszt's Un Sospiro be the selected pieces for the first Online Piano Open (January 2007).

For anyone interested in participating, post in the audition room your performance of Un Sospiro before January 31, 11:59 pm your local time.

It goes without saying that there are no prizes of value, but only the appreciation of your fellow forumites.  If enough people express interest, we can set a poll for the favorite performace of those voting, although IMO that's besides the point.

Break a leg and do post.

Start shooting suggestions for the February piece.  I again vote for open format.

[pianistimo]

why does it 'go without saying there will be no prizes of value.'  i mean, why do people compete in the first place.  now, with bicyclists - they set up a pool of money and whoever wins the race at least gets $50. out of it.  but, well - i guess this is different.  you give it all and then get nothing.  well, except the adulation of your peers.
that's the life of musicians.  always striving for the wind.

but, you know - if nothing else - i REALLy like debussy's 'isle of joy.'  it is growing on me every day.  i haven't even looked at un sospiro and probably won't until next week.  the un sospiro i don't care about - because i've played it before.  but, the isle of joy is something new - therefore i am more interested in practicing it.

[pianistimo]

i can record now.  yay. 

say - i kind of like the synthesized 'fantasy' button for this recording of 'isle of joy.'  is that ok.?  it sounds really cool.  i also added a little slow jazz drum.  sorta sounds good, to my ears. 

tell you what - i'll give you several version sounds and you can pick which you like best. 

[nanabush]

Oh god this is gonna be crazy... I didn't read all of the posts, are we allowed to post videos? [i dont have a simple recorder]

And the last list posted, starting with L'isle joyeuse, and ending with Christmas suite, that's the final list for the year?  :S:S

[iumonito]

Oh god this is gonna be crazy... I didn't read all of the posts, are we allowed to post videos? [i dont have a simple recorder]

And the last list posted, starting with L'isle joyeuse, and ending with Christmas suite, that's the final list for the year?  :S:S

Hi Nana,

No, the list is very much not final.  I advocate an open format, but there has been a majority of people who advocate a single piece, I think with the thought that comparison would be somewhat fairer.  The piece for January was picked on a poll.  I have not heard suggestions for the piece for February but it seems counterintuitive to choose one before doing the January one.  Perhaps monthly is too often.  I think for February we are going to do a poll in two rounds, as last one would have been a tie if one compares votes for Un Sospiro and votes not for Un Sospiro.

What do you think?  Interested?

I am not doing January, but will wait until we pick something I play or wish to learn.

I have no objections to videos or any other format.  I think the only limitation is what the audition room allows.

[avetma]

Maybe (just maybe) february should be in more open format. Like, any of chopin etudes? or... I don't know... ?

[pianistimo]

you don't like the transcription of thalberg's?  i think it is quite good - but fairly easy.  why don't you play the etudes as part of your other rep.  what is happening is that noone seems to want to play the same pieces so we can hear various interpretations of the same piece.  if it is all decided randomly each month - it is different than having enough time to work up items.  i like iumonito's just deciding it ahead of time for the entire year.  i never saw the transcription before i downloaded it.