Interesting discovery about octave fingering.

[iumonito]

This past Christmas my wife gave me the Siloti transcriptions, revisions and editions (very insightful wife, eh?) and upon opening the book it struck me as odd Siloti's repeated admonition to play certain octaves with both the fourth and fifth finger at the same time.  I figured it must be a fetish about having more finger cushion or mass on the key, for the golden sound Siloti (and his cousin Rachmaninov) so much cherished.

Well, lo and behold, yesterday I am playing Liebestraum 3 for my dad, who is visiting for a few days, and I catch myself that I have been playing all those singing octaves for years with precisely that seemingly odd fingering.

Let aside that such fingering so far seems to be the only similarity between Siloti's legendary keyboard prowess and my own modest enjoyment of the instrument.  It was fun to realize an instinct had been working without me having any clue about it.

Anyone out there who plays her or his octaves this way, or that knows anything about such a tradition?

Marik?  I would put my money on you knowing something about this.

Cheers!

(p.s., now I shall try with three fingers, the more the merrier, right?)

[ramseytheii]

I know Godowsky taught this, and if Siloti was using that, maybe Liszt did too.  I always use 4-5 on octaves with black keys, and I sometimes use 3-4-5.  Doubling up  fingers can also use in passages which may not be loud, but could use security, for instance, the opening of the Liszt Sonata, or the opening E major passages of the Prokofiev 3rd sonata for a loud example.

Walter Ramsey

[whynot]

Yes, I noticed that I do this without thinking, don't know why.  I have tiny hands and cannot experiment with  3-4-5, ha ha, let us know how that goes.  What a great present from your wife.
Cheers.

[counterpoint]

Anyone out there who plays her or his octaves this way, or that knows anything about such a tradition?

Yes, I play like this very often. I play even single notes with the fingers 1+2 at the same time. The advantage is, that the fingers can stay very relaxed. It helps not only for forte-playing but also for piano or pianissimo.

[imbetter]

this is interesting, ive had lots of trouble recently with rapid octaves.

[pianistimo]

doesn't that stiffen up your hand a lot?  maybe this is what you want for some passages that are short - but long ones.  whew!  wouldn't you be sort of wrecking your wrist area?  i think much better flat hands (three fingers to the middle).  just my watching last teacher and the way it seemed he played octaves quite effortlessly.

[lostinidlewonder]

Using more than one finger with the little finger while playing octaves, it is just trying to counteract the natural weight of the thumb to the rest of the hand. In my opinion it isn't really helpful to try to balance out the hand with extra fingers paying the same note, but for some people it might be a security issue, or indeed the fact that playing octaves with the little finger alone hurts. I guess it depends on the physical nature of your fingers, but in essense I would think that using more than one finger could indeed restrict your hand more so than the support it gives trying to balance out the thumb to the rest of the fingers. It also leaves you stranded if you have to play octave with notes in the middle of them.

[ramseytheii]

Using more than one finger with the little finger while playing octaves, it is just trying to counteract the natural weight of the thumb to the rest of the hand. In my opinion it isn't really helpful to try to balance out the hand with extra fingers paying the same note, but for some people it might be a security issue, or indeed the fact that playing octaves with the little finger alone hurts. I guess it depends on the physical nature of your fingers, but in essense I would think that using more than one finger could indeed restrict your hand more so than the support it gives trying to balance out the thumb to the rest of the fingers. It also leaves you stranded if you have to play octave with notes in the middle of them.

For me, using 4-5 on black keys in octaves also gives a feeling of a grip.  With just the pinky, the connection to black key octaves can be rather tenuous.  It's very possible, I know from personal experience, to play fast passages in this style.  For using 3-4-5, I reserve it for the passages which require a few octaves to be towering in volume and presence above the others, because it does restrict speed.

Walter Ramsey

[iumonito]

this is interesting, ive had lots of trouble recently with rapid octaves.

Well, I don't use this fingering when it goes fast, like HR 6, Mephisto or 25.10.  I think I only use it for singing.  I think Siloti does too, I'll check.

For fast octaves, reduce distances and release tension as much as practicable.

And do not over practice.

345 sounds great. At the right spot I shall use 2345. 

[pianistimo]

you must have big hands.  i couldn't really use 2 - but 345 maybe.  it's funny - though - after my last teacher - all desire to play in a powerful fashion has left me.  i learned from him that it doesn't take 'that much' to get a large sound out of a piano.  perhaps it's more the speed and the way the particular action of the piano works.

the 'singing part' has nothing to do with dynamics, to me.  unless you're talking about competing with an orchestra.  that is above my level of expertise right now.  i would hope the piano would be mic'd.

[thalbergmad]

For me, using 4-5 on black keys in octaves also gives a feeling of a grip.  With just the pinky, the connection to black key octaves can be rather tenuous. 

That is the way i feel, it is a matter of extra security.

I did not realise i actually did this until my teacher pointed it out. I did it naturally without thinking.

Thal

[ramseytheii]

That is the way i feel, it is a matter of extra security.

I did not realise i actually did this until my teacher pointed it out. I did it naturally without thinking.

Thal

Does this have anything to do with a tendon connection?  I know next to nothing about the hand.  But I seem to remember two fingers utilizing one tendon...?

Walter Ramsey

[thalbergmad]

I think that is the 3rd and 4th old boy.

Thal

[ted]

After reading this thread I tried it but I don't like it; it feels peculiar. To start with I don't really have "security" problems - probably just lucky in that regard I suppose. Secondly, as lostinidlewonder says, it gives me fewer fingers to do other things with and also markedly impedes their range of movement, especially in improvisation, which is my main concern.

[nomis]

Claudio Arrau doesn't do that, but he does mention in Joseph Horowitz's book that he uses 3-4-5 for the final Ds in Chopin's 24th prelude, as using the thumb would give a harsh sound and using that fingering avoids the possibility of a wrong note.

[ichiru]

I tried this too and not feeling really comfortable with this. Perhaps that's because the huge gap between the height of my 4th and 5th finger (almost 3cm) that makes it feels strange.

Hmmm... I wonder, is there any special tip for playing rapid broken octave?

[asiloti]

This past Christmas my wife gave me the Siloti transcriptions, revisions and editions (very insightful wife, eh?) and upon opening the book it struck me as odd Siloti's repeated admonition to play certain octaves with both the fourth and fifth finger at the same time.  I figured it must be a fetish about having more finger cushion or mass on the key, for the golden sound Siloti (and his cousin Rachmaninov) so much cherished.

Well, lo and behold, yesterday I am playing Liebestraum 3 for my dad, who is visiting for a few days, and I catch myself that I have been playing all those singing octaves for years with precisely that seemingly odd fingering.

Let aside that such fingering so far seems to be the only similarity between Siloti's legendary keyboard prowess and my own modest enjoyment of the instrument.  It was fun to realize an instinct had been working without me having any clue about it.

Anyone out there who plays her or his octaves this way, or that knows anything about such a tradition?

Marik?  I would put my money on you knowing something about this.

Cheers!

(p.s., now I shall try with three fingers, the more the merrier, right?)

Siloti used 4,5 fingering and 2,3 fingering many times when playing the melody notes.  I think this was done to better control the quality of the note's sound.  One complaint I remember keep hearing from my parents is that so many pianist today pound out the notes destroying the quality of the tone.  I believe using two fingers helps control depression of the key to produce rich but not harsh tone.

[pencilart3]

Siloti used 4,5 fingering and 2,3 fingering many times when playing the melody notes.  I think this was done to better control the quality of the note's sound.  One complaint I remember keep hearing from my parents is that so many pianist today pound out the notes destroying the quality of the tone.  I believe using two fingers helps control depression of the key to produce rich but not harsh tone.

I'm sure the person who posted this 8 years ago will benefit from your opinion.