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Belated London Premiere for Fanny Mendelssohn Hensel on International Women’s Day

As part of its special day of programming for International Women’s Day, BBC Radio 3 broadcasted a live performance of the Easter Sonata, a major piano work which until recently had been attributed to Felix Mendelssohn, but is now proved to be the work of his sister Fanny Mendelssohn Hensel. Read more >>

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Author Topic: W.A. Mozart - Rondo Alla Turca  (Read 16420 times)
nepenthe
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« on: February 02, 2007, 01:25:20 PM »

Hi Pianostreet forum,

This is my first post here, so I will introduce me. My name is Bart de Keijzer, 20 years old, I'm playing piano for 2 years now. Unfortunately I have no money for a teacher.
I'm not _completely_ new here, I have been reading/observing this forum for about a year. I find it really helpful. I just didn't post anything before, because I feel I'm too unproficient to provide any useful comments/advice.

However, I would really like to receive some feedback on this problem I'm facing.
It's about this piece I attached. I have been playing it for way too long (I don't dare tell you how long). I wanted to play this thing perfect, but it still isn't. There are even some very obvious mistakes in it, and I think it's just far from being at the level of playing you usually hear on a CD recording.

Furthermore, I want to add:
When I started to practice the piece, I thought I could easily handle it. It turned out to be lots more difficult than I thought it was (by hearing). I'm guessing I picked a piece that's just not within my grasp.

So first of all, what do you think of the playing? And secondly, what do you advise me to do next? Should I quit practicing this piece or should I continue to improve it? This really begins to frustrate me. I'm starting to suspect it's impossible for me to get it right.

* Rondo Alla Turca.mp3 (3750.74 KB - downloaded 2017 times.)
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piano sheet music of Alla Turca
nepenthe
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2007, 01:29:39 PM »

Just one more thing,

this was recorded on a Yamaha CLP-150 digital piano. So I was wondering: is it more difficult to play this well on a digital piano? Or should that not be a problem?
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pianistimo
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2007, 04:53:52 PM »

dear nepenthe,

i have to take my kindergartener to school - but i'll be back in a few.  you sound really good for no lessons!  in fact, i think you play this better than me - and i've been taking lessons a long time.

the only thing i notice is that sometimes you cut the endings shorter (where you have a quarter note).  hold out the end of the phrase - but try not to go too much past it.  draw lines through both staves from the rests to the notes that match and try to end phrases beautifully.  most of the time you seem to.  and i like your staccatos.  add afew more. 

one question. are you playing a d# twice in measure 7 somehow.  there's some note in there that doesn't sound quite right.  anyhew.  i'll be back.  susan
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rach n bach
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 05:15:25 PM »

No lessons?!   Shocked
Well done.  Honestly, you remind me strongly of a recording of Horowitz that I have.
Keep up the good work!
Oh yeah, I do find it hard to play on a digital piano, but some people don't...
When I find a piece is wearing me out, it is very helpful to back away from it for a week or so, and either play simpler stuff, or not at all.  When you come back, you see it in a whole different light...

All the best,
RnB
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I'm an optimist... but I don't think it's helping...
pianistimo
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 05:54:08 PM »

i'll preface this 'if you were my student...'  then - anyone else here can do the same.  there are many ways to approach the piano and none of them really harmful.  sometimes people make you think that there's only one 'right' way.  there is a faster way - but at the beginning - nobody's in a big hurry.  unless you're one of those people in a big hurry.  my advice is don't be in a hurry.  really learn each concept that you are working.

ok.  if you were my student - the first ten minutes we'd warm up.  every day - do the same warm-up routine - but add more.  this really gives you some dexterity to start with.  for beginning students (which i don't think you sound like - so you must have had a few lessons in the past?  how many?)  you probably are beyond the tetrachord version of scales that i do with my year one students.

but, pretend you are 8 again - and i'll pull you through a routine to warm-up, ok.  it sounds really simple to start - but you'll progress really fast.  count ten notes up from the lowest note on the piano (A) and you'll come to two C's below mid-C.  put your left hand 5432 fingers on CDEF  and your right hand 2345 fingers on GABC.  feel the comfort level of your hand (without thumbs).  relax.  massage each note going up.  CDEFGABC and back down. 

now, to know first year basics of keyboard - you should also know the 'circle of fifths.'  so, now - take your left hand ONLY and place it over the right hand (which has remained on GABC).  once your left hand 5432 fingers are over the correct keys GABC - slide your right hand out.  then place it on the remaining spaces for the scale of G - DEF#G.

memorize this pattern of 'fifths' by telling yourself that the next scale you will play (after C major) is G major - because G is five notes above C (including C).  play the scale of G several times up and down.

now, take an easy piece (basically following your fingering - if you want) and play it in C major and in G major.  no chords - yet!  you'll feel a similarity with what you do with your hands.  the only thing is that F will be sharped (instead of natural). 

once you are done practicing your scales - try some exercises.  'a dozen a day' are good for basic year one students.  other people may have harder ones.

i mean - you could pretend you're going to handle czerny 'the art of finger dexterity' right now.  but, i think it's much easier to take it slowly and build speed.  the first page of book 2 (a dozen a day) is working legato touch, staccato, and a combination.  also, you can work evenness of playing by 'yes!' turning on the metronome.  working one speed accurately and then moving it up a notch and playing again.  then, at the end of the practice you do on exercises - play all three exercises without stopping (end to end). 

an important thing that many students overlook is knowing for a certainty which notes they are dealing with.  you may be way beyond this - but it is important to establish that you do know this.  count slowly with the first exercise and say the type of note out loud.  quarter- quarter-quarter- quarter /  quarter - quarter - half - note /  quarter - quarter - quarter quarter / whole - note - hold - it //   try to make it all as even as possible.  listen for discrepancies between one note and the other. 

keep your hands fairly flat - and start with your fingers already touching the keys.  you'll notice some of your fingers are farther in to the keyboard than others.  play your thumb first and after the note sounds - pull your thumb towards yourself - at the same time as you let go with the thumb - your index fingers should be at the right spot to play.  also, pull the index finger towards you as though you are lightly dusting the keyboard with it.  then - repeat the motion by going forward again with your thumb.  it's like you're scratching your cat at the neck.  it's a sort of gentle massage touch.  your thumb will stay fairly straight and slide out - your index finger will be doing more of the moveable dusting with the finger.  you don't have to move your arm as much as let the fingers do this minute 'dusting' as i call it.

now, on the staccato - i used to have students start 1/2 inch above the note and end in the same spot (above the note 1/2 inch).  you can practice that way if you like - but it's probably better to start again - not much above the key and make a sort of nervous tick thing - where you come back to the location you started with this nervous twitch.  just think about returning to the location you are at resting slightly above or on the keys.
 
now - on the last exercise (legato to staccato - or slur) - you are starting to get into hand relaxation.  shut the lid of your piano.  put the pads of your fingers down on the lid.  pretend you are a fly trying to stick on the wall and then let your arm completely relax.  hold it with the other arm and lift it - keeping fingers stuck to wherever they are.    you should not feel any tension whatsoever in your arm when you move it (close to the elbow) with the other hand.

place your hand back onto the keyboard and play first the legato note then - 'dust' the  second note (your hand may be briefly up a bit) then let the hand drop onto the last note (C - half-note) with the arm utterly relaxed.  it should produce for you a very solid sound.   the only way i can think to describe the feeing - is when you've been at a calculator a long time.  your hand is relaxed on the desk.  you are punching in the numbers.  hit a higher number and then your hand/thumb falls to hit the 'bar.'
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pianistimo
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 06:05:15 PM »

if you can handle the rondo alla turca - you can probably handle a lot of other music from the same level or slightly under or over as you choose.  i think there is a thread on here somewheres - that categorizes (as well as the sheet music listing) the level of music.  pick something else that you like and want to learn and i'll help you go through it. 

**buy yourself a theory book.  bastien, alfred, and faber are all good.  i tend to buy bastien a lot - but it doesn't matter so much in the end.  what i like about bastien is the way it is explained and examples to play.  and, i'm used to it.

some teachers start right in on bach preludes and fugues.  i would personally look for some easier versions which teach you the 'idea's of each of the preludes and fugues without having to concentrate so much on so many 'exact' and fast passages. 

one of the first things i learned was that playing the piano should always feel easy and not burdensome or hard.  it is like a ski slop - if you learn to ski well on the bunny slopes then - up higher is not so much of a problem anymore.  you learn how to control movements and they transfer to any piece or exercise that you are playing. 
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piano121
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 09:05:47 PM »

Wow.... so much helpfull advices!  Tongue I can only say it´s quite nice, it´s well balanced, and fairly even. I think you are doing prety all right, without a teacher. But anyway I would sugest you to seriously think about finding a way to pay a teacher. I´m shure you are going o improve a lot. 

But, for now it´s extremely nice. Just try to keep your LH quieter, and bring out the melody a little more. Great work!

ps.. about quiting tht piece... I thing you already exausted all you can at this moment. Try diferent pieces, move on! work on some Bach, and then, naturaly, you are going to play alla turca much better in the future.
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imbetter
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 10:04:41 PM »

what are you talking about that definatly isnt beyond your reach. all i can really suggest is that you play more legato
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"My advice to young musicians: Quit music! There is no choice. It has to be a calling, and even if it is and you think there's a choice, there is no choice"-Vladimir Feltsman
nepenthe
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 12:52:06 AM »

Wow, it's difficult to reply to all those comments at once but let me try Tongue

Pianistimo, Rach n Bach, piano121, imbetter, thank you for your kind comments! And special thanks to Pianistimo for your elaborate feedback and practice strategies.
I didn't expect any positive reactions on this, and I feared lots negative critique. Very happy it turned out this way.
Seriously, this really cheers me up Cheesy

I really don't like not having any lessons:
Without a teacher, I have no idea what to do, I have no idea whether my playing is good enough or not, and I find it hard to estimate which pieces are at my level.

Pianistimo, as for your question,
you must have had a few lessons in the past?  how many?
I never took any real lessons. My mother played piano when she was young. She has explained me how to read music, and other basic concepts (like what scales are), because I wanted to try playing piano. So I started playing piano and got a music theory book from the library which I am still reading (it's way above my level, and probably goes much too deep into all the concepts. As a consequence I now know for example everything about rhythm and metre, but almost nothing about chords and tonal harmony, because I didn't read that part yet Tongue).
To be honest, I do also not know what a tetrachord is that you're talking about.

I could tell you a little more about my situation:
My practicing methods as they are now, are really primitive.

- I play no technical exercises.
- I warm up by practicing all the major scales, all with the same 12312345 fingering (not good, I know. but the transition to the 'modern' fingering is so difficult Embarrassed). First LH, then RH, then HT parallel upwards/downwards, then HT going opposite directions.
- After that I start to practice the pieces. I can only learn them very slowly, because reading sheet music is more like deciphering sheet music for me. My main strategy is to record and listen if everything sounds good (recording is very easy on a digital Wink ). In the 2 years that I play piano I have only learned

Bach C major prelude WTC book 1,
Beethoven Fur Elise,
Bach Invention 1,
Bach Invention 8,
And this Mozart K331 movement.

That's all really. I assume this is not the way to go: I feel that I'm progressing really, really slow.
The time I took for every piece, especially this one, is frustratingly long.

So I'll be trying to take all your advices into account. I will be starting to work on another piece.
I think the 2 inventions I learned are the pieces that have taught me the most in a relatively short amount of time.
So I'm thinking about learning another invention, don't know which one but probably one with lots of trills, because trills are a huge problem for me.
I will also take a look at some technical exercises, probably these 'a dozen a day' exercises (there's no way I will handle Czerny's finger dexterity Smiley )

Again, thanks a lot for the help! as you noticed I really needed some guidance (and probably still need it, so still trying to get money for lessons Wink ).
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pianistimo
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2007, 02:57:24 AM »

save the trills and ornamentation for later (after your regular practice).  make everything simple and just play the main notes.  what you want to do is become really good at everything first year students should be good at.

as i see it - a firm understanding of all of the major and minor keys and immediately know IN ANY KEY what notes are sharped and flatted - like the back of your hand.  do you know this?  i'll tell you a secret.  it's really simple.

you know how you can write the letter G with a continuous line of the pencil.  well, G has one sharp (f#) just like the one continuous line.  now the next key of the circle of fifths (counting up five - including G) is D.  guess what !  same thing - you use two pencil strokes this time to write D - and there are two sharps (f#c#)

to remember the order of the sharps:  fat cats grow during an evening bbq 
(one of my students made that up)

now - guess what!  it gets better!  the next letter (counting five) is A.  three pencil strokes to write the letter A - and three sharps  (f# c# g#). 

keep repeating these things to yourself (unless this is old hat - and you have to tell me 'i already know this stuff')  it's very very important to your progress - and for speeding it up incrementally as you go.  the first three years of piano are the HARDEST.  you are memorizing a lot of information.

now - on to the next key E - guess what!  same thing.  four pencil strokes and four sharps (f# c# g# d#).  practice writing them on staff paper.  over and over in the right order and reminding yourself that four sharps = key of E.

the next one is B.  now...if you write B as the romans did - with triangles for the rounded parts - you will come up with FIVE lines.  and, thus - five sharps.  (f# c# g# d# a#)

practice playing ALL these scales this week in tetrachord fashion.  tetra - means four notes or half the scale.  four notes with the left hand and four notes with the right hand.  sounds too easy - but you're learning to move quickly up and down the keyboard and working dexterity and knowledge of the basics of the 'circle of fifths.'  you can easily move five by the method i showed above (placing lh over rh and pulling rh out and replacing it in the correct spaces to finish the scale).

say - you just played the scale of G (tetrachord fashion = lh 5432 rh 2345)  your rh would have just played D E F# G.  now if you place your left hand over the rh - the left hand will now play those exact same notes (D E F# G) and you are set up to play things in the order of fifths.  do you see what i mean?  it's really cool and easy this way.
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pianistimo
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2007, 03:44:37 AM »

after you're done practicing, go back and attempt to add in the trills in the first invention.  take the upper note to what is written and play upper/lower/upper/lower  so that the first note (upper) is on eighth beat and last note of trill (lower) is on the very next eighth note.  in other words, you'll have three notes to one eighth and the last will correspond with the next eighth note.  this will make BOTH your mordents and trills similar (being that the mordent - the one with line through it) also will be three notes - excepting you start on the main note and go down to lower note and back to the upper.  three notes to each eighth will sound consistent and i think good to your ears.

try it with your first invention and tell me how it goes. 
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pianistimo
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 01:38:50 PM »

dear nepenthe,

in case you haven't chosen your next piece - let's try the fugue that goes with the first prelude.  most people get stuck on fugues because they try to put traditional scale fingering with the runs.  it doesn't work with bach.  he often used 'what worked' instead of a planned system of 123 1234 ... 

this, imo, is why students have so much difficulty with fugues.  once you forget traditional fingering - fugues are easy.

ok.  bach liked to use 1212  all the time - so lets do that with the first line.

you have the first voice (which, btw, doesn't look like soprano.  must be alto - because the next voice comes above!)  C D E F GF D A D G  so lets use:  1212321413

now on the next few measures - students think that because the notes are mostly written in the treble - they HAVE to use the rh.  use whatever is comfortable!  i use my left hand for the lower notes starting on the third sixteenth of the third beat (second measure)

we ended with the rh on G - let's keep going with the rh first.   AGFEFGABCDCBE  : 4321212123214

it should be really easy to play the rh now.  let's go for the left hand on the third sixteenth of the third beat.  to find your place rhythmically faster - look at the rests.  you'll see an eighth rest above the third beat.  count three sixteenths from under that rest and you'll come to an E.  mark this for lh by writing fingering UNDER the notes instead of OVER for the right hand fingering.  EDCDCBAF#  :  12323451

now - whenever (rh or lh) you have a sharped note that moves a half step up or down (to white note) - you can slide.  so when you move from this F# to the G with your left hand - SLIDE.  slide off the F# to the G with your thumb.

ok.  that's the lessons for today (for this morning).  if you respond - i'll give you more stuff to make this fugue easy.
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pianistimo
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2007, 02:40:11 PM »

dear nepenthe,

another thing i was thinking about is that many times students are scared to just end a phrase with easy fingering and then move their hand to another location.  they think they must connect everything.  the only time you HAVE to connect fingers is when you are holding a note down at the same time as playing other notes.

a good example of making things EASIER for yourself is in measure 8 in the left hand.  i think 'why not let the second beat finish (while you are holding onto the E) with the pinky?'  so the fingering i put was 25, 4, 13, 5 (staccato)  then pick hand up and move it to C# and A (25)
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pianistimo
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2007, 02:54:46 PM »

also, at the beginning of measure 7 - you can hold the G with your second finger (while playing  E with 4 finger) and end the fingering on the NEXt sixteenth (F) with your third finger - then tuck thumb under and keep on going. 

one other spot - right before that in measure six - on beat three and four in the left hand
5, 2, 13, 2, 1 (HOLD) - move third finger into place on A!   this is much more comfortable.

playing fugues can actually be comfortable to your hand!  i have from the A 3, 4, 5

measure 7 - first beat 24, 3, 1, 2,3,2,13, 4, 15, 25 ...
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nepenthe
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 08:55:35 PM »

Dear pianistimo,

Great thanks for your support! I really didn't expect to get all this help from anyone, but I appreciate it very much!

I would love to try playing the fugue! I've been under the impression that this piece was too advanced for me, but if you think it's doable, I will try it!

It will take me some time though, I'm going to try to get my hands on the score, and take all your ideas into practice. Prior to that, I'm going to try the tetrachord exercise now.

I practice only 1 tot 2 hours a day, but I will report here my results & progress soon as possible!

Update:
Ok, I have the score - but without any fingering markings (not sure whether this is good or not). Do you think I should first practice hands separate? I probably should. So I will first have to determine what to play with which hand.

Another strategy I've read about is, instead of playing hands separate, separating even more by first playing everything voice-separate. I doubt this approach, do you think it will be necessary?

Update 2:
I've analysed it some more. The piece still looks pretty difficult to me ;P
Well, it seems to me like I will first have to figure out the fingering in reasonable detail, before I can really start practicing this. You already gave me a good start! It's gonna take me some time though, but that's no problem for me.
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pianistimo
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2007, 03:24:16 AM »

just work the first line with the fingering above.  i think you'll find it's not that bad.  i usually start right in playing hands together as much as possible because it helps later with the dexterity of being able to put it all together and perform it.  but, if you have a lot of time - go ahead and play it however you like.  just remember that you will need to use the fingering above specifically for performance - and not for sightreading the subject/countersubject - etc.

now, bernhard has many tips for taking fugues apart.  this is all well and good.  also, you can use colored pencils to mark each of the voices.  this one is probably already analyzed somewheres. 

you have the alto line starting the fugue with the subject.  and then the soprano (second voice) coming in on the 'and' of the third beat of the second measure. 

probably the vERY first thing you should do is draw lines through both staves marking each of the main four beats.  then, you should be able to see two eighths or four sixteenth notes per beat.  when you could eighth notes - you can count 'one and two and...'  with sixteenth notes (being twice as fast) you can say 'one e and a - two e and a...'

what can get confusing are the dotted eighth and the very very fast thirtysecond notes (with three bars) in the first measure.  i would count the dotted eighth simply as 'three and-aa'  when you come to the 'and-aa'  make the 'aa' the two notes.  they are very fast and would fit into this pattern if it were all thirty second notes in the entire third beat. 

on-un -ee-ee  aa-nd  aa-aa  (eight notes all together per one beat of the measure).

if this is getting to be too complicated - i'll play a little and you can hear and practice.  you'll probably recognize this fugue.  especially if your mom plays piano, too.

**glad you are practicing the tetrachord scales.  they are fast and easy to learn - so you'll be through them in no time.  usually first year students don't play the F# and C# scales - because none of their songs are in those keys (being really hard to read with all the sharps). 

what i would do when you reach the scale of B major (with five sharps) is to simply move up ONE note per finger and end up on the scale of C major again.  play it.  and then - we'll move backwards to learn most of the flats.  i'll show you that trick tommorrow.
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pianistimo
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2007, 03:30:33 AM »

here's the first line:
(you should end with both rh and lh thumbs on the first beat of the second line , G and B)

* bach fugue #1.mp3 (254.76 KB - downloaded 196 times.)
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pianistimo
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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2007, 03:35:31 AM »

now if you want to go further, here's what you do:

play your lh thumb again! on the G...then do that slide i told you about from the G to the F natural.  you'll play the F natural and G together - 51, then follow schirmer fingering (or whatever book you have) 24, 13, ending with 2 on C.

since your lh already took the G (second sixteenth note of first beat) you will finally come in with your rh on the third sixteenth note = A with your second finger of rh.  the pattern will go from A, 2, 1, 2,1,2,3,4,3,4,5   now when you arrive on the F# with your pinky - remember SLIDE, slide from your pinky from the F# to the G.  easy, huh!   

then, with rh - it's 1,2,1  on the B C A.  (we'll take the notes under that with the lh)

this is far enough for a day of practice for you.  if we take a measure or so a day - you'll learn this fugue in no time!
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2007, 09:19:18 PM »

I can play the first line now, with more ease than expected indeed. Cheesy
But there's still a 3rd and 4th voice to be introduced so I guess it will get somewhat trickier. I suppose that when all 4 voices are active, I will just be going to play the lower 2 exclusively with the lh, and the upper 2 exclusively with the rh?

For your comments on the next measure you're telling me to use slides. I'm already using a slide in measure 3, in the right hand from beat 1 to beat 2, from F# to G... is this right? (it feels ok to me)

you'll play the F natural and G together - 51, then follow schirmer fingering (or whatever book you have) 24, 13, ending with 2 on C.

The sheet music I have for this piece has no fingering guidelines on it Sad
I found a public domain score somewhere on the internets.

I will continue with measure 4 tomorrow! (i can't continue now unfortunately, too late at night Sad )
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2007, 09:41:32 PM »

so glad you're finding it easier than you thought! in more places throughout - sometimes the lh or rh can take more than what is proferred by the regular fingering in most books (which DO keep lh and rh more separated).  this is what makes it easier instead of harder.  hardly anybody can play the fingerings in the book -and keep a steady tempi.  that's because they're bum fingerings, imo.

bach was very creative.  you can almost tell what he was doing after awhile.  for instance, in some places he moves fingers under and other places he moves them over.  really, it's a matter of not becoming staid in one's 'rules' of fingering.

ok.  i can't remember if i already gave you today's ideas or not.  i got up and wrote a few things this morning - but here's some more:

warm up on the scales again - moving through the circle of fifths until you get to the B scale.  move up to the C scale and play that one, too, again.  you should be pretty high on the keyboard on the right by now - as each scale has moved up five notes - and you've played the scales of C G D A E B. 

now, after you finish playing this high C scale - do the opposite.  hold your lh in place (don't move it) and take your rh and place it gently over the pattern of lh fingers.  only then, pull your left hand out.  you will be playing C D E F (with rh fingering 2345).  take your lh now and place it on F G A Bb below the notes of the rh.  this is the scale of F - with one flat.  each progressive scale backwards adds another flat. 

**when working with students who are much younger - i tell them to wear a ring on the finger/s that they are going to sharp or flat.  for the flat keys - you could move ring to index finger of lh for the first two scales or so.  on the scales that have sharps - the first two scales you can put the ring on your ring finger (of the rh).   

gotta pick up one of my kids at school.  i'll be back later to give more fingering for the bach fugue.

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pianistimo
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2007, 01:14:19 AM »

ok.  on the fourth measure ('and' of beat one) the left hand plays two notes at a time for the next three eighth notes.  in my book, the fingering for these notes is 15, 24, 13.  you could also simple use 15, 14, 13 if you want.  ending on the C with 2.  this sets you up to play those fast thirty-second notes with 1 and 2.  for the B to the E and G - try 3.  while you hold down the third finger on B - silently change the finger to 4.  this way you can reach the next two notes with 2 and 1 together (E and G) and still reach down with the pinky for the first bass note of the fifth measure. 
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2007, 01:39:45 AM »

ok.  let's start with the fifth measure and go to the end of the line with the left hand:

we have lh 5 on the A and then the 1,3 fingers play both the D and the F together.  you can do a little curved line with pencil over the top of the FEF to remind yourself that it is taken by the left hand. 

so - altogether starting on the A  - 5, 13, 2, 1,2, 1, 2, 3,15, 4, 13, 12, (rh takes the D as a full complete d minor chord there - so skip this note) since you have a slight break - move the entire lh up so you play the G F and E-G with 3,4, 35  then the A C with 12.  after that it is 5,2,13 (hold 3) 2, 1,2,3,4 and end on first beat of measure 7 with 15  (the thumb kinda brought inwards toward pinky).
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2007, 01:45:12 AM »

the right hand of the fifth measure would be 2,1,3,2,1,3,2,1,(crossover)2,4,31, 2, 3,4. 

the sixth measure - right hand - would be 51, 4, 531 (taking D), (crossover) 4, 5, 2,1,2, 3,1,42.

the whole thing up to this point (two lines) would sound something like this:

* bach fugue #1 (to second line).mp3 (580.5 KB - downloaded 146 times.)
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nepenthe
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2007, 01:45:11 PM »

Alright, I've got measure 4 down Smiley

To be honest, I think the slide from the G natural to the F natural is a bit uncomfortable, although I play it anyway because I can't find a better alternative.

For that reason I've decided to play the right hand double notes on the beginning of beat 2 with fingers 2 and 4, although this position is a bit awkward too.

I find it easier to play the 3 consecutive thirty-second notes in measure four with fingers 1 3 4. This way, I can play the E and G that follows with 12. Is this ok? (It may become problematic in measure 5, but oh well I will see soon enough).

Starting measure 5 now Tongue
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lau
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2007, 11:11:56 PM »

http://www.abrahamespinosa.com/partitures%20pdf/volodos/Mozart%20-%20Volodos%20-%20Turkish%20March%20Piano%20Score.pdf

 Cool
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i'm not asian
pianistimo
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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2007, 01:51:03 PM »

very cool lau.  good idea, too.

dear nepenthe,

there is one change i would like to make in my fingering for the fifth measure (if you want to follow some or all of it).  basically this is one place where i agree with the book fingering - and that is at the end of the fifth measure in the left hand on the 'and' of the fourth beat.

before that you have your four finger on the fourth beat(D) while holding thumb on C.  now if you do a cross over instead of under with the 2 and 5 fingers to play the E and Bb - you'll be set up for measure 6.  basically this is a 'drag the fifth finger across the fourth.'  it works really well when you practice it a couple of times.  now, what this sets you up to do in the sixth measure is to slide with your second finger from the Bb down to the A.  so you have 24 (on A and F).  try it.  it should work really well.

i'll add seventh measure sometime today asap.
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2007, 02:00:26 PM »

ok seventh measure:

i agree with the book to have 15 on the first beat with the lh on G and E.  this sets you up to play the lh run 2, 1,2,3, 2,13,4, 15, 25 (crossover), 13, 5, fast 21.

rh = 'and' of first beat = 1,2,1, 2, 3 to 2 fast, 1, 4

now - some teachers might argue 'why play a 1 finger if you are holding the previous G' - but for my reasoning - i say - well - we have pedal now - and in certain places it keeps continuity of fingering.  for instance - this is the SAME fingering you started with at the beginning.  also, it BRINGS OUT THE LINE - you can play loudly on this 'development' matter and not subsume it into the previous notes.

hold the G in the rh as long as possible (at the start of measure six) and then very quickly slide over the hand AND thumb.  don't forget to let go of the previous B in the last beat of the sixth measure on the first beat of the seventh.  this is just one single note that you are holding out until the last possible minute - when you quickly 'zip' across with your hand to begin again.
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pianistimo
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2007, 02:08:04 PM »

eighth measure rh:  1, 3, 4 3 2, 1, 4, 543   ninth measure:  2-5 (as you hold note - switch finger), 1,2,1,24, 35 (32 - on sixteenths), 15, 4

eighth measure lh:  25, 3, 21, 3, 25, 15, 5 (quickly move here with pinky- 'dragging across' white keys as previously done), 231, 25, 1  (hold thumb)

ninth measure lh:  4321, (hold thumb) 2345 ... (con't)

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nepenthe
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2007, 10:44:45 PM »


hahaha, no way I'm gonna play that. The Volodos version is insane.


Anyway, I had a bit of trouble with measure 5. But I think I've got it down now.

The reason it took me so long is probably because I made some alterations to the fingering you proposed, in order to hold all the notes appropriately. I'm note sure whether this was a good idea though, considering the time it cost to learn it.

I'm going to measure 6 tomorrow. This method of measure-by-measure learning is working quite well up to now Smiley, but I will probably have to take it slower than one measure a day (in fact, i'm already doing so). I also foresee memorisation problems due to all the fingering complexity, which could slow down the learning process even more.
But no problem, I have enough time.

And of course thanks (again), Pianistimo, for all the help.
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2007, 11:56:51 PM »

glad you're taking it slow and methodically.  and, i'm glad that you figure some of your own fingering.  some of the problems people run into - is exactly that, though.  to hold a fingering doesn't require sacrificing moving on.  you hold it for the allotted time - quickly move to the next spot.  whether a good fingering for that place- or a better one to keep continuity.  that's my motto.  i think it's good particularly in this fugue.  other things - very easy to keep fingering in one place.
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