What makes Christians unique?

[janice]

 You may find this hard to believe, but there are many other ways to get to heaven!

Not according to Jesus.  He said "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, nobody comes to the Father except thru ME"(John 14:6). 

[janice]

That God sent Jesus here to give us the good news that belief in Jesus was the way to heaven, and the bad news that not believing in Jesus was the way to hell?

Precisely!!

[janice]

addendum--BUT he also said that he is "not willing that any should perish, but that all come to him in repentance."

[V Queen]

this is a silly, SILLY, topic. every religion is unique in their own way, end of story. there's no more unique or a better unique.

[Floristan]

Not according to Jesus. He said "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, nobody comes to the Father except thru ME"(John 14:6).

No, Janice, not according to Jesus...but according to every other religion.  It's no wonder the Muslims and the Christians have been at each other's throats for centuries!

Precisely!!

addendum--BUT he also said that he is "not willing that any should perish, but that all come to him in repentance."

Oh, well that is most reassuring indeed!  But really, Janice, repentance is not the sole intellectual property of Christianity.  Every religion has provisions for repentance.

What makes Christianity unique is that it considers itself unique.  Every religion, as V Queen points out, considers itself unique.  Most think they and they alone have the answer.  Conservative religious people have always been the most strident and vocal in asserting the superiority of their religion over all others.  Wars have been, and are, fought over little more than "my religion's more right than yours."

In the great panoply of world religions, Christianity is just another religion. 

Personally, I don't understand why anyone belongs to an organized religion.  God really doesn't think one better or more holy because one belongs.  IMO.  At any given time one moves toward God or away from God.  Or as the Buddhists put it, you're either destroying karma or creating karma.  Religion isn't required to understand that and live one's life accordingly. 

[janice]

I'm confused with your logic, Floristan.  What you are basically saying is that ALL religions are true.  That doesn't make sense, because, as you said, some religions are "at odds" with the others.  Some religions believe a certain thing is right, while others believe it is wrong.  You cannot have one thing that is both right and wrong at the same time.  Please elaborate.

[Floristan]

I'm confused with your logic, Floristan. What you are basically saying is that ALL religions are true. That doesn't make sense, because, as you said, some religions are "at odds" with the others. Some religions believe a certain thing is right, while others believe it is wrong. You cannot have one thing that is both right and wrong at the same time. Please elaborate.

Not right and wrong at the same time, but right and right at the same time.  From the perspective of God all these religions are just variations on the theme of ways to know God.  They are all "right," as you put it.

[janice]

They cannot both be right, at the same time.  Use your logic!  If one teaches one way to salvation, and another teaches a completely different way, then we have a little problem, don't you think?  If I look outside and say it is raining, and a family member looks out the same window and says "it is NOT raining today", then one of us is right and one is wrong, correct?

[Floristan]

They cannot both be right, at the same time. Use your logic! If one teaches one way to salvation, and another teaches a completely different way, then we have a little problem, don't you think? If I look outside and say it is raining, and a family member looks out the same window and says "it is NOT raining today", then one of us is right and one is wrong, correct?

No, not correct.  If I was religious like you it might be correct, but you see, I am not, so no, not correct.  That's just bizarre to me.  Why would God endorse only one religion. and why do you think it's yours?  Whaever you say, I'm sure there's a Muslim just as convinced that she's got God in her corner and that you're the one who won't be saved. 

I think all organized religion is a crock, personally, but that doesn't mean I don't think you ought to have the right to believe whatever you believe.  And if your belief requires you to dismiss all other religions, then so be it.  It doesn't reaally matter to me one way or the other.  I don't believe what you believe.  I couldn't.

[janice]

I think all organized religion is a crock,

Jesus did too.

[lostinidlewonder]

Whew ! Okay, you have convinced me that you think all five premises are true  and that you see no inconsistency. At least we now have that much clear.

I see gross inconsistency if all five are assumed because suffering is indiscriminate. Why does an animal suffer a painful death, say, through a predator or in a forest fire ? Why does an innocent child die a lingering death from cancer ? To assert that these victims of nature brought about their fate by rebelling against a deity seems to me absurd. If you assume the existence of an omnipotent good deity why does suffering have to exist at all ? Remember we're talking about omnipotence here. An omnipotent deity could single out the bad eggs and knobble them without touching anybody else. He doesn't; he chooses to inflict suffering on all and sundry. The buck stops with the boss. Of course the boss could have gone to lunch or died at his desk I suppose.

Because there are these things happening in life does that mean that there is no God? Why is it in this life it is not perfect? Why don't we all live in peace and nothing happens ever wrong? Firstly it goes against the physics of nature that "life is a struggle". Life is always about struggle, things always exist because of such a very fine line. For instance, if our earth was say 50,000kms further from the sun, or closer, that isnt a big distance at all in comparison to the universe, but if that small distance was there we would all be very dead. So life is struggle, it is impossible for that not to be, but that is no evidence that God doesn't exist, or any of the other 4 points. Because humans have choice we see great variation in the suffering in life. But we see a constant factor when we see the suffering in nature, floods, bush fires as you say, predators eating their prey alive. These things have ancient process because of the physics of the world and nature of survival. But with humans it is so different, we have this choice that nothing else has. We see destruction in this world and it repulses most of us, but because we can feel and sense that, doesn't that make a connection to God stronger? To need for justice in the world. We see so much injustice and "evil" happen, but we often are clouded thinking that there is no reason for it. I take an example of a woman who is raped when she was young, traumatized she uses it amazingly to become a counciler to help other young victims of rape. Isn't that a disaster creating something with ultimately works for goodness and the cause of God? What i am trying to say is that through suffering don't we often see something much greater and important than the actual suffering itself? What it causes, instead of utter destruction, a turned leaf, a new life, strengthened soul.

I believe we are left to our own devices in this world. If you close yourself off from God i dont believe he will punish you and send you sickness. A child who is born with cancer and dies is not punished because of this or that. Nor is the cancer supposed to mean anything, it is to mean that these things happen. You cannot avoid it happening, with so many births and environments that we live in it has to happen. What is its life meaning though? To be born and know you won't live double digits. I have seen some inspirational children speak of life and death as if they had all the knowledge in the universe, they face death yet they are totally unafraid, they have nothing to lose but their family and friends, but they have a close believe in God. What amazing grace is this that they can live their short lives full of joy rather than the easy path of misery. But this is their life, they have to experience it hopefully not us. We have another life experience to learn from. I find that looking at other peoples lives too much and trying to use that to make a decision spiritually is very wrong. You must understand your life dont look at others, what is life for you without other people. From that everything comes.

[lostinidlewonder]

And on Who goes to heaven?

That is gods decision why should we even care? When you went to school did you stop everything you did and spend the week trying to find out who will get an honor certificate? Of course not, its not important, and you don't even know how the teacher is going to judge student peformance on that week, you can definatly guess but you cant be sure. What is important is that you work hard in class and learn.

When it comes to Christianity we are told how to find salvation, and how God puts us right with him. But the decision as to who goes to heaven or not is utterly Gods. When you die you shouldn't even be considering if you go to heaven or not, but that you perhaps hold a lot of the love you gathered through life close to you so it fades away with you. A lot of that love comes from your connection with God and Jesus Christ since they are everlasting and constant no matter what stage of your life.

A lady totaly unconscious on her death bed and her daughter whispered Jesus loves you as a farewell kiss, and she muttered in her sleep "I know he does". Things like that are utter testaments to the power of God, but these are personal observations, you have to be there to feel the presence of everything at that very moment. This type of thing is not uncommon to lots of Christians who are at their moment of passing. Instead of the fear of death it is an extremely heightened spiritual awareness even if it is does unconsciously.

God uses his own scales, he will judge correctly no one will be judged wrongly. It is said in the bible that we all will accept the judgement absolutely, every single one of us. No one will feel hard done, or feel any injustice. I believe that people all can turn a new leaf, so it doesn't matter what you are, always search for the truth, even if you die and are still searching at least you can say you have always searched for the truth. Maybe God will take you by the hand and say, fine this time we will do it together. Who knows how he will judge us. It is not up to us servants to question the masters scales, its just dangerous i think.

[janice]

from: Janice on March 18, 2005, 06:51:43 PM

Not according to Jesus. He said "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, nobody comes to the Father except thru ME"(John 14:6).   

No, Janice, not according to Jesus..

Er.......didn't I just say that Jesus himself said that about himself?

[darkrev]

I'm not here to say that christianity is bogus, but I can't understand why so many ppl decide to follow this religion, it's not good!  I mean, look at all the violence and discrimination linked to christianity...in the bible, God even helps certain armies win their wars! God loves all mankind? yea right.  And how can we overlook all the prejudice among christians?  homophobia, anti-semetism, and even the fact that christians agree with the belief that all non-believers of this religion go to hell for an eternity is discrimination.

[janice]

I'm not here to say that christianity is bogus, but I can't understand why so many ppl decide to follow this religion...

It's not a "religion", it's a "relationship".  Jesus paid the price to "bridge the gap" between God and man.

it's not good!   

I can't see how it is not good.  What can be better than God offering Himself (in the form of a man) to pay the penalty for our sins.

  I mean, look at all the violence and discrimination linked to christianity 

It's sad, isn't it?   But please elaborate on this, clarification is needed.  Thanks!

I mean, look at all the violence and discrimination linked to christianity   

Yes!!!  And the good news is, that He loves even those who reject Him and basically spit in his face!

   And how can we overlook all the prejudice among christians?   

SOME Christians are like that.  But God doesn't want us to be that way.  So don't knock Christianity just because you see Christians doing bad things.  We aren't perfect, just forgiven!!

   and even the fact that christians agree with the belief that all non-believers of this religion go to hell for an eternity is discrimination.

The Bible isn't a story about a "hell and brimstone" preaching God, who is just dying to see somebody sin so He can throw them in hell.  It's a story of a love relationship God has with mankind.  A relationship He wants to have with YOU!

[darkrev]

Jance-

I really don't understand it when christians suggest that Christianity isn't a religion.  Religion is defined as a faith in a supernatural being who created the world.  Just because you call it a "relationship" doesn't make it more plausible than the other religions in the world.  And by discrimination, I've already mentioned that it includes homophobia and anti-semetism.  It's true that there are many christians out there who do not, by any means, outwardly discriminate, but the fact that you follow a religion that suggests it is impossible for a person to be "good" without firstly believing in God, and that only christians have a chance to enter into heaven is discrimination in itself.  You said that God loves even "those who reject Him and basically spit in his face", and as you should know, true love is unconditional and tolerant.  How can you say God's love is either of these things if the bible so explicitly condemns to hell everyone who doesn't believe and worship Him?  If God wants to have this relationship with all of mankind, then maybe he should first of all tolerate our individuality instead of needing everyone to conform to his standards.

 Though the world may be far from perfect, it is better to live life accepting both hurt and joy than to blindly hope for a flowery afterlife (relationship) in heaven with God.  If you can be joyful in heaven knowing that billions of souls are eternally tortured in hell as a result of God's wrath,  then I admire your empathy.

[lostinidlewonder]

I mean, look at all the violence and discrimination linked to christianity...in the bible, God even helps certain armies win their wars!  And how can we overlook all the prejudice among christians? homophobia, anti-semetism, and even the fact that christians agree with the belief that all non-believers of this religion go to hell for an eternity is discrimination.

I am Christian and I don't consider who is going to heaven or not, that is entirely up to God. That isn't even a requirement for Christianity to know who goes into heaven or not, or who is right or wrong, Jesus points us in the direction, but he does not reveal the scales God uses for judgement.

The Bible teaches that we are all   in the wrong with God, and we are all very very very far away from being saved. We are born into sin, and so long we are in flesh and blood we are sin. So a real christian will not be judgemental full stop because we have no excuse ourselves! If you are Gay, Jewish or handicap a Christian is not supposed to think anything different of you we can't believe it for a second because we know that the grace of God and Jesus Christ is for everyone, none of us can be arrogant about it. So when you see all these ANTI this and ANTI that and comments filled with judgement, these have no part of the Christian faith. We are not taught to condem and judge, and if Christians argue that we will do this to uphold the Word of God then i say read Proverbs which keeps saying in many forms that wise people will use words in a gentle artform and make wisdom attractive. Point fingers and condemning people in the name of God does nothing and any person who goes and does this would be doing a diservice to themselves. It is like the murderer trying to say that the other murderer is worse, it is just absolutely ridiculous.

Fair enough christians may argue that the bible says this or that, but I would point to the passage where it says, LET HE WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE! No one is without sin, no one is innocent in this world unless you are new born baby. But even a newly born baby is born through sin and into sin. These things sound absolutely terrifying to the non christian, that the bible calls us all sinful beings without hope. But there is a great deal of truth embedded in it and once you understand what it means, study the word of god and find that every single one of us are sinful, you will find a great deal of calmness and understanding in the wrong people do to you or to others.

Christianity alone is perfect, as soon as humans influence it, it becomes tainted with sin and imperfections. Again ill say, anyone who points a finger and judges another is being judged at the same time, and by a much higher authority than yourself! So if people ever see Chrisitan's condeming another you ask them who gives them the authority to judge? Even if they say the bible says so you ask them again, who gives you the authority to judge me? They will not be able to answer why they personally have the right to judge you, if they try it will be a jumble of garbage arguments. We are all sinners, if you sin by being a murderer that is no different than sin by being a rapist. How do we know the scales of justice that God uses? We place so much importance in our life that when we see someone cause death we think, oh that must be the worst thing you could ever do. But what about someone who doesn't kill, but kills the spirit? Crushes people hopes, dreams, life goals. Isn't that just as bad as murder? You see how hard it is to know what is the right judgement, that is why it is entirely up to God.

Any person who judges is wrong. And that isnt being judgemental so dont be a smart ass

[m1469]

Er... I would like to take issue with that.

What does God have against grass? Why should it be mercilessly eaten in Heaven? What has grass done all of its modest life but humbly supply us with oxygen and be trampled upon? And then in Heaven it gets eaten by the lions as well? Not only Zebras, antelopes, cows, sheep and whatelse, but the lions as well? Give me (and grass) a break!

Incidentally this is another reason I cannot really stand vegetarians: their cruelty towards the plant kingdom.

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard (Spokesperson for the vegetables of the world).

I apologize for interrupting this regularly scheduled program, but I simply have to say that I am crazy about this post and I think it's absolutely brilliant!!!

[lostinidlewonder]

Oh yeah and about Bernhard vegetable arguments lol. God created everything for purpose. We see animals eat grass every day and think nothing of it. The grass itself is a greater entity than just the one blade. It is an entire body covering a great mass of land. Like ants. One ant isnt the ant, all the ants make up the entire ant. One ant will die, so would two ants alone. You needs thousands to keep them all alive and going. Same with Grass, you need tens and tens of thousands of them to live so that the root systems survive. So what is the meaning behind eating Grass? Does that kill it? Of course not. Unlike animals vegetation has the magical ability to REGENERATE itself, something that animals are not so fortunate to have (except some animals of course). God gave plants the ability to regenerate because he knew it had to be used as a source for food. Where else would we get food from? The Suns rays? Would be strange to hold your mouth open to catch them. We live in this reality where we must eat physical things to live. It doesn't disprove the existance of God, in fact it highlights it so greatly because we see all these things happen, like eating, plants regenerating, and we dont even think about it, its just somethign that happens. Think about it and we will see god everywhere!

[darkrev]

Christians can defend themselves all they want when others criticize them of being homophobic or anti-semetic etc.  but what you can't defend is God being good and perfect.  I mean, all the standards in the bible are supposedly according to God himself, so that means it's impossible for him to be wrong ever.  He can cast all the gays of the world down to hell, he can ask that you sacrifice your son to Him..whatever he decides to do, no matter how cruel or unjustified we think it is, is perfect.  In my opinion, one of the most absurd things that the bible says is that God loves all mankind.  If He truly loves every person, he wouldn't discriminate against the gays, or the non-believers to the point that he sends their souls off to eternal condemnation.  The worst form of punishment our society has created is either life or death sentence...but an eternity of suffering after death? This is not love, it's an act of self-righteousness and hate and discrimination.  For this reason, I would never believe in, let alone worship, God.  Some of you guys might think I'm terrible for bad-mouthing christianity, but all society ever hears about this religion is the good...God's love, God's mercy...I wanna hear more about God's wrath and God's jealousy!

God did not create man, man created God

[musik_man]

It was rather mean of you guys to restart a thread of Christianity when I was without computer access for a week.   Ironically ,cause I was on a mission trip in Mexico helping to build a church.

Christians can defend themselves all they want when others criticize them of being homophobic or anti-semetic etc. but what you can't defend is God being good and perfect. I mean, all the standards in the bible are supposedly according to God himself, so that means it's impossible for him to be wrong ever.

You're right that God is always perfect.  All morality is derived from him.  There really can't be another source outside of God.  As Ivan Karamazov says in The Brothers Karamozov by Dostoevsky, "When God is dead, all is permitted."  (BTW that is an incredible book, and I'd recommend that everyone who hasn't read it, do so)

He can cast all the gays of the world down to hell, he can ask that you sacrifice your son to Him..whatever he decides to do, no matter how cruel or unjustified we think it is, is perfect.

Firstly, God doesn't do what are in your hypotheticals.  The reason they seem cruel, is because they are.  They are ungodly acts, which is why God doesn't do them.

In my opinion, one of the most absurd things that the bible says is that God loves all mankind. If He truly loves every person, he wouldn't discriminate against the gays, or the non-believers to the point that he sends their souls off to eternal condemnation.

God doesn't send people to Hell, at least not the way you describe it.  God gives all humans the choice whether or not to choose life.  That's the very essence of free will.  God isn't going to force a non-believer into heaven precisely because he loves them so much.  He will respect their rejection of his offer of salvation.  Obviously, the non-believer would prefer Hell to Heaven, otherwise he'd believe.

The worst form of punishment our society has created is either life or death sentence...but an eternity of suffering after death? This is not love, it's an act of self-righteousness and hate and discrimination. For this reason, I would never believe in, let alone worship, God. Some of you guys might think I'm terrible for bad-mouthing christianity, but all society ever hears about this religion is the good...God's love, God's mercy...I wanna hear more about God's wrath and God's jealousy!

Once again, the individual is the one who chooses death over life.  If God sent all to heaven, there would be no free will.  We'd be nothing more than robots.  The suffering in Hell is only the consequence of rejecting God, as all other paths lead to pain and death.  Don't be under the illusion that God is forcing people there, he's given a clear choice, accept or reject salvation.  All I can do is pray that you accept.

BTW God in no way endorses anti-semitism or homophobia.  Jesus clearly taught to love all.  In the Gospels, Jesus spends time with the poor, lame, prostitutes, tax collectors and other social outcasts.  The only people he attacks are the proud.  Those that think they are righteous and better than others.  Jesus teaches that the humble are the ones he came to save.  The only requirement for salvation is that you recognize your sin.  In essence you recognize that you have messed up, mess up, and will continue to do so.

[darkrev]

excuse me, but I think you need to read the bible before you argue with me.  You say that God isn't homophobic?

"a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have done evil and shall be put to death." Le. 20:13

PUT TO DEATH!  that's what's frustrating, you just read the verses that sound good to you, and u manage to overlook all the negative verses in the process.  Romans chapter 1 also contains verses that condemn gays. 

You can pray for the people out there who do not choose to have their lives dictated by a 2000 year old book, but I for one absolutely refuse your "sympathy" and your desire for me to accept christianity.  I'm the one who feels sorry for you.

[janice]

Christians can defend themselves all they want when others criticize them of being homophobic or anti-semetic etc. 

A TRUE Christian loves his brother as he loves himself.  Granted, there are some Christians who are homophobic or anti-semetic, but don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch.  I don't go around saying that all Black Americans or all Native Americans (or whoever) are rude, just because I met one or two rude people who happened to be of a different race.  A Christian (follower of Jesus) being anti-semetic?  Now THERE is a contradiction!

   He can cast all the gays of the world down to hell,  

No!!  God doesn't "send" people to hell.  People CHOOSE to go there.  There is a variety of people in hell.  Some are gay, some are straight.  But they all chose to live life without God.  

  he can ask that you sacrifice your son to Him

Are you referring to the story of Abraham and Issac in the Old Testament?  That is a foreshadowing of Jesus being sacraficed for the sins of the world.

 If He truly loves every person, he wouldn't discriminate against the gays,

And how is God "discriminating" against gays?

...but an eternity of suffering after death? This is not love, it's an act of self-righteousness and hate and discrimination.  

If, indeed, God is going to be "perfect", He will need to be perfect in ALL areas, right?  His love is not only perfect (He loves everyone, passionately), but He also perfectly just.  A good justice system has a sound set of rules and punishments.  A "anything goes" society will not only be chaotic, but will crumble.

 For this reason, I would never believe in, let alone worship, God.

I'm sorry to hear this.  So is God.  He loves YOU very much, darkrev, and longs to give you eternal life!  But maybe if you read more of the Bible and truly understood God's love for you, you will change your mind.  I will pray for you.  No, I'm not patronizing you.  Because I never would have become a Christian, had it not been for the prayers of others.

[lostinidlewonder]

The word for GAY in the bible was written in Greek and its translation of it is very very cloudy. If you google search and research that you will easily find a lot of info on that for you.
There was an ancient Jewish ritual where men would partake in a male orgy, as expression of male fertility or something on that line. That old practice is condemed. Sodom was also condemned because of group gay sex and rape. There is nothing written in the bible which condemns partnership of a true gay relationship. Romans says, who GIVES UP THEIR NATURAL DESIRE for woman. A gay man cant give up that natural desire since thier natural desire is for men. So then the interpretation of the verse is again open.

[pianonut]

i thought the term 'gay' as we use it today is a relatively new term.  'gaity' has a different meaning.  i believe that 'not one jot or title of the law will pass until all has been fulfilled.'  God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  i don't see any passage in romans that is speaking positively of giving up desire for women (unless it is for the gospel).

the natural desires of man (coming from man) is what make us think it is 'natural.'  sometimes we have to re-learn, re-route, and re-train.  i don't think 'gay' people are 'going to hell' any more than adulterers and murderers.  you have to read closely what the bible terms hell.  'second death.'  not torture!  rev. 20:6 'blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the second ressurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.'  after the thousand years Satan be released from his 'prison' that he might try to decieve the nations again.  this time God will utterly destroy him.  Satan is the only one who has 'hell' the way we think we will get it.  for us it is either life or death.

[pianonut]

ps  to explain better rev. 20:10: 'and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'  that is because they are already spirit.  we are not.

[pianonut]

dear lostinidlewonder,  you are so right about speaking with knowledge and not just being 'blatant.'  Christ did this with the Samaritan woman who had five husbands and currently was not married but living with a man.  He, without doing a background check, told her where she currently was and what she needed to do to 'drink living water.'  (eternal life)  also, Christ spoke gently, but strongly about divorce (matt. 19:9 'whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery-- so the disciples said 'if the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry?)  He answered and said ' not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.  for there are enuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.  he who is able to accept this, let him accept it.)   this is a very hard statement.  this is like saying to an adulterous woman to start wearing a chastity belt everyday, or a thief to cut off his hand (it does mention that if any part of our body causes us to sin - we are better off going into the kingdom of heaven without it).  BUT - i am not suggesting we cut it off.  simply re-training our mind.  Our minds have more power with God's spirit than without.  if we ask God for help, he will grant it.  I have asked many times for help with my own sins.  Sometimes it doesn't come right away.  sometimes we make mistakes.  But, we pay for those mistakes in this life.  Don't think you can get away with anything before God.  He wants us to realize that it's a matter of life and death (for us and for those we might hurt).  Jesus repeats his law (commandments of the ot) to the man who asked 'what shall i do that i may obtain eternal life.'  He also says'if you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor.'  not very many Christians (though many sacrifice for the poor) have done this, so we are all guilty of hurting our brother in one way or another.

[pianonut]

for those who might argue that the law is done away, you can go further back than the commandments to Noah.  gen. 9:24 'when noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him.'  this is not what 'gay's typically do to their fathers (but many have had fathers who were not right in what they did to their sons).

i am curious (just from a bizarre curiosity) what you would feel if you saw two women kissing.  wouldn't it make you feel like they truly think men are unnecessary?  maybe i am pressing my case too hard (for straight people), but because i was somewhat self sufficient when i married my husband, i have had to re-train instictive actions to do everything for myself (opening car door, pulling out chair, general taking care that some men do for their wives).  i don't think it stops there, i think it keeps on going.  men are quite able to care for themselves as the jobs get harder and harder.  i make a case that women ARE the weaker sex.  they can do certain things, but at a cost to their health, backs, minds.  we weren't meant to have children (one burden) and then also take on the full responsibilty of finances and labor (as men are built larger naturally).

i think what men find more attractive in another man is the fact that they won't have to deal with changes in temperament from day to day (men are generally less moody), weaknesses that women have (and need help), they provide children (which some are not in a position to raise or financially stable yet to take on a family).  all these are perfectly understandable things in the 'natural' mind.  also, the population was brought up.

BUT, so you don't think i am saying it is easy...many men who change from homosexuality to being straight find it a long process, i think.  they already have friends to rely on, so what do they need from a relationship with a woman (who might cheat on them, might slander them later, might do many things worse than friends they consider more honest).  This is where God comes in.  You don't have to marry!  You can simply choose to seek out a few more women friends and experience the dating process simply as a way to understand better the other viewpoint (or perhaps explain to the women that you are not seeking a permanent relationship yet- but want to hear their points of view).

I prayed to God (after seeking out men that i wanted to date - and things not working out) for a good male FRIEND.  that's when my husband actually came along.  He was seeking the same thing!  you might be surprised at the blessings that come your way when you are not even looking.  even if it is a woman who is ALSO a lifelong friend.  they give you another perspective.

[mikeyg]

I'm not here to say that christianity is bogus, but I can't understand why so many ppl decide to follow this religion, it's not good!  I mean, look at all the violence and discrimination linked to christianity...in the bible, God even helps certain armies win their wars! God loves all mankind? yea right.  And how can we overlook all the prejudice among christians?  homophobia, anti-semetism, and even the fact that christians agree with the belief that all non-believers of this religion go to hell for an eternity is discrimination.

Let's generalize this even further:

Religion is bogus, and I can't see why so many people decide to follow any religion.  Just look at all the violence and discrimination linked to religion, parrticularily in recent years to the Islamic denomination.  God has no affect in our daily lives, he doesn't care about what's going on, he just makes sure that the laws of science in nature are being followed.  The fact that religions believe that all non-believers go to hell is ridiculus in that there is no heaven and hell.  I have no doubt that there is a force which we call "god", but he is nowhere near as involved in our lives as many people would like to believe.

[ted]

“we weren't meant to have children (one burden) and then also take on the full responsibilty of finances and labor (as men are built larger naturally). ”

Pianonut:

I am in complete agreement with you here, funnily enough. I think it is a great pity that so many governments and economic systems, to the detriment of young children, have forced both partners in a marriage to work. We chose to have less money so our son could have the constant company of one parent. (Which one I’m not sure matters a great deal in the end – I would have loved to have been a househusband but economics dictated otherwise.) In view of the obvious differences in the way our son has turned out, it is a decision we have never regretted. The trouble is that it is getting to the stage (in this country anyway) where most couples have no choice at all, and that is a very sad thing.

The other thing I feel strongly about is that men have to soften, to learn to feel ,cry, allow the feminine in them to function. This inflexible, testosterone induced aggression, rigidity and dominance, which, heaven help us, is still respected in the male,(look at all the absurd cruelty and nonsense depicted constantly on television) is still the cause of so much misery and violence in the world.

This post is completely out of context, I know, but the essence of what you said is very important whether we are religious or not.

[pianonut]

dear Ted,

i agree with you, too, about men always having to 'prove' themselves.  or women, by expecting men to do too much  (being too dependent).  i would have no bones to pick with a man staying home with his children and the natural trade off that many families do to make ends meet.  i think i've exhausted my 'knowledge' of things on this thread and since you have agreed with some points, i will rest and read others posts.  we may not agree on everything, but i think that you prove that there are always things one can agree on (which is much better).

[janice]

Ted, I applaud the decision that you and your wife made to have one parent (in this case, your wife) at home!  More people need to feel the way that you two do.

[janice]

  i think i've exhausted my 'knowledge' of things on this thread and since you have agreed with some points, i will rest and read others posts.  we may not agree on everything, but i think that you prove that there are always things one can agree on (which is much better).

Pianonut, you have brought a great deal of Biblical knowledge, wisdom and common sense to this thread.  Naturally, it is always "best" to agree, and not disagree, but that would be if it were a perfect world, and it is not a perfect world.  I say this because I am a fellow believer in the Resurrected Christ also, but PLEASE re-think your decision to take a rest and merely read.  You have spoken with a good deal of love.  And I believe that God has brought you to Piano Forum for a reason.  And that reason is to tell people of His redeeming love, and God is using you to plant the seed (seed being the knowledge of Christ's redemption).  With me, I know that I can't NOT tell people!!  I'm sorry that I am sending a message to you via this thread, but I have sent you several private messages and I wonder if maybe there is a computer glitch here somewhere.

[willcowskitz]

Some questions:


Somebody who lived in a non-Christian environment for his whole life, goes to hell simply because he didn't happen to get a chance to learn about The God and salvation?  Whose fault really is it, and if we need punishment, who's the guilty?

Can the salvation really be called a choice, when it is forced upon people's minds by means of fear - one of the weapons of Satan?  "Don't do this, don't do that, or you'll go to hell!  It burns!  It hurts!!"

When was I asked if I wish to exist forever or not?  I don't remember making that choice ever, I just came to exist, which doesn't mean I necessarily want to spend the eternity in consciousness.  The thought of it is very tiring.  So now I have to choose between eternal PAIN or eternal BLISS?  Please, The God, if you have any explanation for why this has to be, stop underestimating us mere humans and allow us to know.

Why do people take it for granted that the Bible as we know it (written in human languages, translated and interpreted again and again) is as perfect as The God wished it to be?  How about the effects of culture and society of the time affecting the actualization of "God's word"?  God didn't write it, after all.  People will find backup for nearly any "laws" from the Bible, ignoring the contradictions and picking out the parts that support their own beliefs.  When people read it, they don't look for "the word", they look for details that favour their view in whatever dilemma.

If the requirement for salvation is *believing*, it sounds like a blind act to me.  In the end, when you've already started believing, how do you know what you believe in?  How do you relate, if all exteriour "substances" are denied?  What makes it divine?

What typical Christians (mind you, this is from my experience) want from their religion, is typically the "Jesus paid for our sins" part.  Ideally it means appreciation for God and his sacrifice (and Jesus').  Practically it means, I can always sin because I can always regret, and Jesus paid for our sins and on the top of it all, God will forgive me anyway.  This happens subconsciously, and a true Christian will never allow himself to get close enough to realization of the obvious abuse of the situation that allows them to free themselves of responsibility for that brief moment in time in which you're able to divert your thoughts away from the act of sinning.  As I see it, the self-divertion technique is a prerequisite for the *believing* part anyway, so sounds like a perfect package.

Everything else put aside, doesn't the possibility that religions were born from the need to organize mankind's behaviour on a higher level, to create codes and sets of rules to separate us from rampaging, abusive animals, seem overwhelming when put against the picture of universe that (primarily) monotheistic religions present?

[Floristan]

... And I believe that God has brought you to Piano Forum for a reason. And that reason is to tell people of His redeeming love, and God is using you to plant the seed (seed being the knowledge of Christ's redemption). With me, I know that I can't NOT tell people!!

Would that you could find it in yourself to stop the prosletyzing.  It's most unattractive. 

You people are really beyond the pale.  "God brought me to this Forum to tell people of His redeeming love..."  Oh puh-leez!  If God brought you here, He brought you here like boils to Job, to test our patience and loyalty, to see what it will take before we say, "No God would treat me this way, it is too cruel!  I denounce this cruel God who brings me the tortures of Janice, pianonut, and lostinthewonder!  Please, give me back the boils!" 

[janice]

Religion is bogus, and I can't see why so many people decide to follow any religion.

Jesus felt the same way you do. He despised the "religious" leaders of his day, and exposed them for what they truly were.

  Just look at all the violence and discrimination linked to religion,  

Yeah, it's sad, isn't it?

 God has no affect in our daily lives,  

This is an interesting thought.  The Bible says differently.  It says that God knows you so well that "the hairs on your head are numbered."

 he doesn't care about what's going on,  

again, the Bible says likewise.  It says that even if a sparrow should fall to the ground, even God is aware of it and He cares!

The fact that religions believe that all non-believers go to hell is ridiculus in that there is no heaven and hell.  

And how do you know this?

but he is nowhere near as involved in our lives as many people would like to believe.  

He's only as involved in your life as you allow Him to be.  God won't force Himself upon you.  He's waiting for you to respond to what you have been told about God.

[lostinidlewonder]

Errg so much to type, so little finger energy lol.

Somebody who lived in a non-Christian environment for his whole life, goes to hell simply because he didn't happen to get a chance to learn about The God and salvation?  Whose fault really is it, and if we need punishment, who's the guilty?

The judgement as to who goes to hell is Gods judgement. We can only guess what it will be like, but we can be assured, none of us will feel hard done by its result. Nowadays however very very very few of us have an excuse not hearing about Jesus Christ, the gospel is found anywhere and everywhere. Don't get too upset over judgement, it is not in our power, live life and learn. Those who let judgement totally cloud their concept have to question why they are letting it do that to themselves. Why let yourself get totally distracted by it when it has nothing to do with us? Yes its result will affect us, but we have no say in it. The say we have is in the life we live now, so we better live now and not let the thoughts of judgement make us flouder about distressed.

Can the salvation really be called a choice, when it is forced upon people's minds by means of fear - one of the weapons of Satan?  "Don't do this, don't do that, or you'll go to hell!  It burns!  It hurts!!"

Salvation comes for the very nature of being human. We are all mostly good natured people, but we all, every single one of us has something about us which we wish would be different, how we treat others, our thoughts, emotion, our desires etc. All these things cause sin and break our connection with God. It is these things which are the weapons against us, ourselves! So we need salvation from our very selves. Then it comes to absolute choice then doesnt it? Do you choose to change the way you think or will you keep riding on your bus believing that humans can control every aspect of their life and death without god. And for me the fear from Hell should is the absolute absence of Gods presence, not the burning and pain. Even if the feeling of Gods presense with me now gives me such support I could imagine how much more it would be in the spiritual life which would wholly depend upon it.

When was I asked if I wish to exist forever or not?  I don't remember making that choice ever, I just came to exist, which doesn't mean I necessarily want to spend the eternity in consciousness.  The thought of it is very tiring.  So now I have to choose between eternal PAIN or eternal BLISS?  Please, The God, if you have any explanation for why this has to be, stop underestimating us mere humans and allow us to know.

You where given no choice to be born that is for sure, but you are given an opportunity to exist. Tell me where you can get something for absolutely nothing in this world? You cannot. It doesnt happen. there always has to be some loss, some work something expended on someone elses behalf. You get something for free on the ground? Yay for you, cost you nothing, but the person who lost it, lost it. You come into existance, thats free you didnt have a choice, bang you are here. So you are taken out of the abyss of non-existance and given something. Do you say, no put me back into non-existance! I can't see why you want to! Even if you suffer in this life, you have lived a life! No words can explain how incredible that is. Every life is so important, and each person has an important responsibility for their life! Thats for sure.

Why do people take it for granted that the Bible as we know it (written in human languages, translated and interpreted again and again) is as perfect as The God wished it to be?  How about the effects of culture and society of the time affecting the actualization of "God's word"?  God didn't write it, after all.  People will find backup for nearly any "laws" from the Bible, ignoring the contradictions and picking out the parts that support their own beliefs.  When people read it, they don't look for "the word", they look for details that favour their view in whatever dilemma.

The question whether the bible has been changed over the years through translation error is very very unlikely. It is estimated that 99.5% of the bible is the original translation, and no doctrines are in doubt. Specific details, geographic locations which the bible speaks have been discovered in archeological digs, some even still exist. Prophecies which have come true (movement of powers in the old and new world) throughout the bible. If there was any translation errors these things still remain very accurate. There are ancient texts dated back to very near even christs time which have copies of the letters of the Apostles which make up the bible. Lots more evidence but too much to write.

If the requirement for salvation is *believing*, it sounds like a blind act to me.  In the end, when you've already started believing, how do you know what you believe in?  How do you relate, if all exteriour "substances" are denied?  What makes it divine?

Belief is blind at first, but then you realise what it is all about. The relationship grows. Afterall jesus said you only need the faith as big as a mustard seed to move mountains! Of course if it is Gods will that is. To say to the Himalayas to shift aside for you wont happen, but to shift symbollic mountains of your life away, personal tragity, life struggles, this is what Jesus points to more. With just a little faith you have already so much. But belief must be with sincerity. You cant just say, ok ill test this out god, i believe if you, now show me what ur all about. You wouldn't do that if the person you most idolised in life now stood before you would you? No you would show a great deal of respect for them. So too imagine now the respect you must have for God. Respect for God is the first step to faith as Proverbs in the Bible will say.

What typical Christians (mind you, this is from my experience) want from their religion, is typically the "Jesus paid for our sins" part.  Ideally it means appreciation for God and his sacrifice (and Jesus').  Practically it means, I can always sin because I can always regret, and Jesus paid for our sins and on the top of it all, God will forgive me anyway.  This happens subconsciously, and a true Christian will never allow himself to get close enough to realization of the obvious abuse of the situation that allows them to free themselves of responsibility for that brief moment in time in which you're able to divert your thoughts away from the act of sinning.  As I see it, the self-divertion technique is a prerequisite for the *believing* part anyway, so sounds like a perfect package.

The bible clearly teaches if you sin and know you are sining this is worse than sinning and not knowing you did it. For many of us Christians we know we live a life of sin, some of us cannot help but sin. So being a christian doesnt mean that you are without sin, oh definatly not! Chrisitans are as full of sin as the next person! But Christians hide behind the cross and will do the same on judgement day. We pray that Jesus takes the blows of our sin rather than totally stand alone saying we are mighty enough to stand before the judgement of sin ourselves. We know we are sinful and deserve death for our sins, so we have no hope but in Christ. Christians develop a relationship with their sin and turn it to the will of God, that is what Christianity is about, it doesn't teach you that if you are Christian you are without sin, rather it teaches you what to do with it and how to strengthen your connection with God with it. Just like my analogy of a woman who is raped and then works to become a social worker for young rape victims. This is how we take a bad and make it into good a thousand times more. Same how Christians learn to take sin and create a closer relationship with God.

Everything else put aside, doesn't the possibility that religions were born from the need to organize mankind's behaviour on a higher level, to create codes and sets of rules to separate us from rampaging, abusive animals, seem overwhelming when put against the picture of universe that (primarily) monotheistic religions present?

That sounds very true. Without faith and hope what would there be? Lots of Chaos. The world is chaotic and the unexplainable (children murdered for instance) would make us all insane if we couldn't find some spiritual value in it. But it was created not to avoid that, rather it was created so that we fufil what we where created for! We are the worshiping creatures of this world, and the only ones! That is our reason for life, everything else is just to keep us alive and make our stay here more enjoyable. In the end the reason to life is worship. There is just not enough in this world to replace that. Well i think i could do almost everything there is in this world to do in my lifetime, but I dont think i will ever completely understand God in my lifetime.

[janice]

Some questions:


Somebody who lived in a non-Christian environment for his whole life, goes to hell simply because he didn't happen to get a chance to learn about The God and salvation?  Whose fault really is it, and if we need punishment, who's the guilty?

Excellent question!  This is kind of like "What about the poor native in a remote jungle in Africa who has never heard of Jesus.?"  That would really suck and that would be very unloving and unfair of God to punish them.  Luckily for them, the Bible says something about that.  Romans 1:19-20 says "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen...so that they are without excuse."  Cool!!  God will not punish someone for something that they haven't heard about.  **He will punish or reward people on the basis of what they chose to do with what they know.**

"Don't do this, don't do that, or you'll go to hell!   

Maybe some churches teach this.  That's sad.  We should be drawn to God because of His redeeming love for us, not to "avoid hell", although that should be PART of it.   Besides, Christianity teaches that we only need to believe and trust Him.  Christianity is not about human good or bad deeds.  "For by GRACE are you saved thru faith.  And not that of yourselves, lest any man should boast." 

  Please, The God, if you have any explanation for why this has to be, stop underestimating us mere humans and allow us to know.
 

Huh?  What makes you think that God is underestimating us?  I'm confused.

  God didn't write it, after all.

You're right.  God didn't pull a pen out of His pocket and write it.  It was written by many humans, but it is inspired by God.  He told them what to write.  This sounds crazy to us humans.

If the requirement for salvation is *believing*, it sounds like a blind act to me.

Not really.  God doesn't want us to "blindly follow Him".  Rather, He tells us to search it out, test it ourselves.  He tells us to believe with all of our hearts AND our MINDS!

   Practically it means, I can always sin because I can always regret, 

You brought up a very good point here.  Yes, it does seem that way, at first glance.  I will have to try to find where it says that in the Bible, if you want.  But it says something about that exact same question!  It says "does this mean that we can keep on sinning?  No it does not!".  Hmmm, not sure where.  I think Paul said it.

I appreciate your well thought-out questions Willcowskitz!

[pianonut]

dear Janice,

thank you for your message about not taking a rest. it must be something God chose us for (smile) because He knew we liked to talk anyway.  i'm sorry i missed any e-mails.  i think my husband did mention a problem that he recently resolved, so i will look again.  my e mail is kosseys@comcast.net

for anyone who wants a theological discussion (limited understanding, but i do read the bible) about the millenium (1,000 years of people who had previously not been taught God's law-also called second ressurrection) i would be happy to give places in the bible that talk about it.  as i understand right now, the first ressurrection is for those who believe God in this life and call on His name (while He is near).  the second, will be a choice again, for those who never heard the gospel (remote places, babies who died at birth, people who are retarded or disabled to the point they cannot understand, people who are overdrugged, in pain, etc. etc.)  I think in Isa. it mentions that people will naturally live to 100 and then (who knows!  God in His infinate power) maybe an instant change to spirit.  We know that death will be swallowed up for all time...so when God takes away death - noone will experience it again.  Sometimes we don't give God credit for his mercy because we don't experience it here by people.  He must have a lot of mercy, tho, to die for us.  Between Janice, Lostinidle, and others who posted for the idea of a merciful God who won't judge without reason - we're probably at 30% of posters (or 3 out of maybe 10 who posted).  It's a percentage that just voices another possibilty for the reason for our being (besides just living as best we can and dying). 

[mikeyg]

Let's turn the question around: how do you know that there is a heaven and hell?  Pure Faith.  Religion is the opiate of the masses.  It makes people feel wonderful about themselves, but it is an incredibly affective way to gain power.  (eg: Europe in Middle Ages) 
There is no scientific proof of heaven and hell, and that is what my mind operates on.  solid proof.  There is proof of evolution, no proof of Adam and Eve.   Proof of the Big bang, no proof of "creation" in the conventional sense.  It is here that my belief of some kind of force comes into play.  We are able to track the history of the univese back to literally seconds after it's creation.  There must have been something governing the way it expanded, that order in which the elements were created.  I can't see it as posible that the order which we have could have came out of mere coincidence.

[lostinidlewonder]

how do you know that there is a heaven and hell? Pure Faith.

There is no scientific proof of heaven and hell, and that is what my mind operates on. solid proof.... It is here that my belief of some kind of force comes into play.

The proof which summounts in Jesus Christs "story" undenabley supports everything about Christianity. You have to change your thinking, in this world we send criminals to their death over CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, so why does a belief in God have to be any different? Why cannot you summount enough circumstantial evidence to build the case for God and Christ? I can tell you why, most people are lazy and wont look up the infomation. But its all there. For a third time ill say read, THE CASE FOR JESUS CHRIST, Strobel, and it is exactly that, an investagative report and research into the truth of Christs life. So now you have no excuse

There is ZERO evidence that humans came to existance through Evolution. In fact it is riddled with errors itself. Let me ask, if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes around? If we evolved into a smarter intelligence, then why are every single other animals without intelligence? Also why have we got choice but nothing else, is that evolution? Why is every other animal controlled by instinct? Why is it that humans are the only animals able to tame other animals and live with them?

Logcially if we evolved from something the old self would become extinct. If this was the case then why cant we see more examples of creatures coming from another creature like humans from apes, there is no other extreme example except this lame one to try and explain how we came about. You need more faith than faith in God to believe this crap. The reason why it is so crap is because it is trying to explain the unexplainable on human terms, which is like trying to get a 3 yr old to explain how to play piano. They will only guess and make some sounds, might sound to be on the right track, but the real way is much more elegant than they will ever realise. But if they take lessons with a great teacher then they will start to understand it all, not at once but gradually it will increase in strength and clarity.

God is the same. Unexplainable and mysterious or non-existant for so many to start with, but its with a miniscule amount of SINCERE faith that will show you so much. Nothing to lose! You put faith into the pilot who flies the plane you are in, you put your faith into the cab driver that he wont crash, you put your faith into so many things without even realising it! And now you are asked to give some faith to God and you retract. It confuses me. Because you have NO CERTAINTY that the guy driving the cab will crash and kill you. You have to say, its most likely he wont, but the thought doesnt even cross your mind does it? Does that fear make you never take public transport again? No of course not! The same is with God, the thought of him not existing doesn't cross the mind because you are already in the cab with him! But you have to get into that cab first, there is no use having all this anxiety about who is in that cab, does he really exist? Get in there and take the ride! You wont regret where it takes you I for one assure you it is better than standing on the side of the road alone in this sometimes very cruel world.

Hard evidence and proof of God is seen through people and through the world itself. We still cannot understand the process of life, how cells grow and become the unique creation it is meant to be. I mean look at a seed grow from two different plants. How does one seed know exactly what to become what it should look like? It doesn't know! But it reacts to what it has been ordered to do, its cells divide and create what it must. Scientists, even our best ones cannot start to understand how this works. If we ask a scientist to create a new speciies of plant, they cannot! We must rely on the miricle of nature to create it. That itself is gods evidence all over the place isnt it?

Look at the universe, just how enormous it is and how insignificant we are in comparison to its size! How much knowledge unknown to us lies out there? It must be a huge load! I think what if our human knowledge is only 1% of the entire univerise, and that is being pretty generous i reckon. Could somewhere in the 99% be the knowledge of God, the knowledge of creation? Maybe there is knowledge where the fastest way to get from one point to the other is not a straight line as we think, but bending the two points to meet at one place. How amazing our fantasy can go and draw out knoledge that totally makes no sense today, but this is evidence of a reality, just because we can concieve how to do it doesnt mean its impossible, oh no, it means it is very possible!

300 years ago people would have laughed in your face if you said you can travel around the world 1 day. They would laugh even more if you said you will do it in a boat that can fly, if you said plane they wouldnt know what you are saying, but a flying boat makes more sense. How ridiculous would that sound to them back then? Go back another 300 years and say you will travel around the world and they will say  "Around? are you mad you cant! you will fall off the edge!"

What about more recently, lets go back 20 years. Go up to Bill Gates and say here is a computer which runs at 3.0ghz. He will not believe it. Show his developers some graphics of some computer games made in the 21st century and they will be uttery blown away.

These things wont stop, it will just get faster and faster, more and more things will come up to change the way we see life. If God is the ultimate knowledge of this univerise then for sure we have a long way to go until we can explain god in words. But all of these new creations and concepts, which where totally fantasy back then are here now and proven! Why cant that be the case with god? To a few he is fantasy, to most he is alive and all around us, but to the few who dont believe are you really sure that with all the little knowledge we humans have in this entire univerise you can deny the fact that God doesn't exist.

We are able to track the history of the univese back to literally seconds after it's creation. There must have been something governing the way it expanded, that order in which the elements were created. I can't see it as posible that the order which we have could have came out of mere coincidence.

That is a good idea to have, a lot of non-believers of God will say that we came into existance because it had to happen. That after trillions and trillions of years and all these random things happening, one random thing "Human Existance" had to occur. It seems too chaotic for me, but a lot of people believe this whole heartedly. Maybe it is true, but what controls chaos? A concept of god does. You say it can't be coincidence which is good, because the big bang theory only explains how the univerise came into existance, the answer it then gives as to how life came into life is this randomness idea, that it just had to happen after all this time. Go deeper into the question, how did it start, what made it go BANG, what made it create life on EARTH. The answer keeps pointing to some being which created itself which created the universe. Horribly deep and confusing stuff, but once you know God these things are put at ease and the answer is found through God and thus becomes unimportant to our lifes decision and growth.

[mikeyg]

I have read the case for Christ, about 4 years ago ( i think), when I was 12 Maybe.  And for a while before my confirmation, i was really into it.  (I am catholic).  However, around this time, I also really got interested in physics and the sciences, and the more I read, the less I believed.  So, maybe one day, something will happen to me that will bring me back to god, but I don't see it coming for quite a while.

[asyncopated]

Hi Mikeg,

Well, just a short comment on what you've just said.  Just so that you know, I am a physicist.  I have friends who are physicists, that believe firmly in god (rather, Jesus).   Also, I do have other good friends who are Muslim physicist, who believe wholeheartedly in Allah and the Muslim faith.  Personally, I'm not very sure what to believe in myself, but that's just me.

What I did want to say is that science does not preclude god.  Neither is the role of science (at this point in time) to explain god.   What science does is it makes rules or models of reality.  Observing the world around us and postulating universal laws (say Newton's laws of motion, which tells us about how things move) is called a  reductionist approach.  It reduces complicated physical behaviour into basic overarching elements.  This method has worked for centuries. However, observing and explaining is not enough.  The power of the scientific method lies in the fact that it allows us to predict things.  We can predict if buildings will be strong enough, if airplanes will fly, if rain will fall. 

Despite all that science can do, it is important to note that it is still based on models and not universal truths.  Almost all scientific models do not include god (there might be kooky models which I’m unaware of that do). It's just a way of describing the world that we live in.  And a vastly interesting world it is.

What is required of someone practicing the scientific method is a very critical mind.  Many scientists, because of the fact that their basic view of the world is uprooted and overhauled every now and then, become extremely careful about what they claim in correct or true.  Most will only make the statement within the context of what they are talking about, being careful to draw the boundaries.  The thing about religion is that it requires a vast amount of faith.  Perhaps the right way of going about it is not through blind faith (just by accepting what people tell you) but by questioning - both yourself and religious leaders.  I have met several priests who I consider some of the brightest, most learned people in the world.  These people can help you with religion if you feel that you need it. (is Bernhard a monk in disguise?)

I would just like to say that although people tend to like to lump science and religion together, citing science as the antithesis to religion -- perhaps from the time of Galileo (who was sanctioned by the church), science does not have all the answers.  Far from it.  Nowadays more so than ever science divorces itself from religion perhaps because of historical reasons; and for fear of a public backlash Religion from Science.   What I do encourage however, is a spirit of exploration.  I think that whatever you choose to believe in, go with an open mind and listening to different views.  Even if in the end you remain undecided such as I, you will certainly have a better understanding about the world around you, more importantly the other inhabitants of this world; and finally perhaps become acquainted with, on a deeper level, the will of God. 

al.

[asyncopated]

oops...

[pianowelsh]

Your in Romans Janice ?6 or 7 'shall we sin that grace may abound? - certainly not!' The point being that in Christ you area a new creation and 'to reackon yourself dead to sin' - a dead man is not interested in anything - even if he was he wouldnt be able to do anything about it because hes dead. This is how we are taught to respond to sin in Romans. dead to sin alive to Christ. Do we always suceed - well no but we 'have an advocate with the father, our great high priest, christ the righteous'. How do we have victory over the temptation of sin ' the grace of God which has appeared to [all] men(meaning in this context mankind) teaches us to say NO to ungodliness and walk upright and self-controlled lifes in this godless age'. As you can see scripture also shows here that it knows that there are many who do not hunger after God (in fact the majority) - this in no way means that the age of God is past or finished with as some claim because he talks about God being our 'ever present help'. One of his attributes being infinity...WOW! In relation to the point someone made to the point about salvation being a choice... its an interesting one, because ephesians talks about us being predestined in Christ from the foundation of the world.. inother words my place was secure before (long before) i was even born... how to understand this is not so easy... but yu can know that if you are saved  and have rel with JC then that was no mistake..... it was prep in advance and he 'will lose none the father has given him'... if you don't know the lord Jesus christ now by no means should you assume that in the future he wont open your eyes to the truth of his gospel because he has the power (all power) and ability to do it wether or not you are particularly looking for him or pleading with him. It is not so much or choice although there is an element whereby we choose to surrender, but it is God who does the seeking and it is God who does the drawing.. If it was dependent on our choices and our searching then we could boast oh look i searched harder than you and i found it or I made a good choice and look what i found... like an insurance life plan or something that you could boast in at the golf club.... salvation is nothing like that...God brings you to an understanding of your situation (like someone overboard about to drown illust... and offers you a hand out of the waves) now would you say that you have a choice as to whether you grab that hand or just wait for the sea to take you??? most people would admit that although there is a choice the obvious thing to do is go for that hand because the alternative is not pleasant. This is a similar situation to Gods salvation. What he does is open your eyes to how much you  need salvation its not like heading down to walmart and saying well actually i think i can do without that gadget actually ive got plenty of other tool s that would do the job. Salvation is not a casual purchase and Jesus death on the cross was a very hefty price tag.......... which is why we need to grab hold of his arm because without his saving work the alternative is frankly not pleasant.

[janice]

Your in Romans Janice ?6 or 7 'shall we sin that grace may abound? - certainly not!'

Yes. It's chapter 6, verse 1.

[lostinidlewonder]

Do we always suceed - well no but we 'have an advocate with the father, our great high priest, christ the righteous'. How do we have victory over the temptation of sin ' the grace of God which has appeared to [all] men(meaning in this context mankind) teaches us to say NO to ungodliness and walk upright and self-controlled lifes in this godless age'.

For me I am still trying to understand what sin is. We know it is what breaks our relationship with God, but we also read that it is what we are and unavoidable. So even when we hold the teachings of Christianity as close as we can to ourselves we still trip up and sin. This makes me think, if being Chrisitan does't make you immune to sin, then what does it actually do? Then i read in Paul (i think) where he writes he serves the lord with his mind and spirit but with his body he serves sin. So I start to think now that we are unable to avoid sin, but can we turn the sin into a closer relationship with God? Even God hates sin what if the sin is used to actually wake us up and realise ourselves going against god? Is it different if we sin and feel guilt, or sin and think nothing of it? I think it is.

Why is this important? For those who are not Christian to hear that Chrsitianity will save us from sin can make them feel confused. To say to a gay man for instance, go to Christianity and you will be saved from your sinful self, that is a little hard to swallow, Chrisitanity will turn a gay man straight. It happens, many testaments for it, but for the majority of people it would be incredibly hard to change your sexual preffeerence to escape sin. So this is only one example, what about someone who cannot help but feel jealousy and feel envious of others? You may laugh but there are some people who cannot help but feel these things, it is intergrated through childhood and adulthood. Although Christianity will teach you how to live righteously you will always muck it up and sin. The woman will still feel now and then jealousy for another, the gay man who turned straight will still have thoughts about other men even if he is with his wife forever. We are judged on what we think as well as what we do! So the idea that Chrsitianity saves us from sin is a deep one, not as simple as one might first consider.

[pianonut]

dear Lostinidlewonder,

i have been amazed at your answers and understanding!  i still struggle with thoughts as well and find that praying immediately (instead of waiting and keeping on thinking) is a good idea.  also, not repeating situations over and over.  you can start avoiding situations.  for instance, i used to look at flirtation as quite innocent and fun.  then, i really hurt about 2-3 guys in different ways (not intending to).  one told me he was having marital problems (bad idea for two different sexes to start into that one!  better a professional counselor).  he was so distraught, i thought (my own thought) i'll go visit him and cheer him up.  he came on to me, and i left.  another was a very attractive musician.  one day out of the blue (my mind is truly strange at times) i just called him up for no reason.  i knew at the time it was a bad idea to call, and thankfully he did not have time to talk and said something like 'see you at music practice in two weeks (not my piano teacher).'  i learned from him that it is possible to control impulses (even if they seem innocent flirtations - which they usually aren't in ones' mind).  over the years, i have come to see my husbands manners as much better.  he never flirted, and always talks about me when i am gone in a good way.  he's very trusting, and very dependable (and sexy, too).  when i turned fourty, for some reason (having everything God granted) this wasn't good enough.  i went to a concert and met someone (sitting next to) and began a year and a half situation where i would talk hours to him (ignoring calls of my husband).  thankfully that is over!  God brought me back to understanding about appreciation and love.  also, belonging to a group of christians (whether church or just a group that meets --which you can ask and find out who lives in your neighborhood and wants to meet--or sexual counseling group that is christian).  they give you support so that you aren't walking alone.   they call you during the week and start filling in needs that make you less susceptible to temptation.  not all ministers are professional counselors, either, and sometimes it is best to save your private matters for private counseling sessions.  that way, you can work one on one with God according to the dignity He gives and not judgement.

[willcowskitz]

The judgement as to who goes to hell is Gods judgement. We can only guess what it will be like, but we can be assured, none of us
will feel hard done by its result.

I don't know if we can be assured, considering what God ordered to be done to the cities/villages in some previous posts.  God just happens to seem like a very angry and merciless fellow.  Considering what humans are like, we're definately his "image".

So we need salvation from our very selves. Then it comes to absolute choice then doesnt it? Do you choose to change the way you think or will you keep riding on your bus believing that humans can control every aspect of their life and death without god.

My life philosophy is to enjoy and suffer in life in a good balance, to create rather than destroy, and to help others around me do this.  Even if I don't give recognition to God, I still will have possibly created more positive energy and thought-provoking deeds than somebody who actively worshipped God daily instead of doing something actual, something that would directly help people around him to find the best in themselves and develop it.  Which gets more "points" at the judgement, and why?  What is God's plan exactly - to have people give recognition and pledge allegiance to him, or have them help build and develop mankind further?

You where given no choice to be born that is for sure, but you are given an opportunity to exist. Tell me where you can get something for absolutely nothing in this world? You cannot. It doesnt happen. there always has to be some loss, some work something expended on someone elses behalf. You get something for free on the ground? Yay for you, cost you nothing, but the person who lost it, lost it. You come into existance, thats free you didnt have a choice, bang you are here. So you are taken out of the abyss of non-existance and given something. Do you say, no put me back into non-existance! I can't see why you want to! Even if you suffer in this life, you have lived a life! No words can explain how incredible that is. Every life is so important, and each person has an important responsibility for their life! Thats for sure.

If I reserve for myself a certain utilitaristically suited area of good ground and I start planting seeds that will grow me food, then the loss is the effort that I put into it.  However, whether to do this effort was my choice to make, so I can't complain about the downside of ensuring my future nutrition.  I wasn't asked to be brought into existence, and now I also have to live with the possibility that even this is not yet the peak of suffering? 

Every one of us is crazy,  crazy because we have built enormous amounts of levels of artificial reality on the top of the actual reality.  We think of matters that have no meaning, making choices that make no actual difference, wasting time in things that we don't enjoy but we "have to" do.  We think we're somehow unique because we have such fat egos.  We have no touch to real surface of existence, we don't even know ourselves.  If you think this is just talk, well try looking at your mirror image for some while and see how you start becoming something else.  Try removing that obstacle in your heads that prevents you from thinking certain, forbidden thoughts.  The world looks and feels so different that you come to realize how subjective, and therefore fragile, everything is.  In this subjectiveness, how can we be so sure of anything - like existence of some particular, certain God, whose existence prevents other similar entities from existing?  All we have to support this particular god are masses of people, similar to other masses of people that just happen to support another god and are equally certain and in faith about the righteousness and absolute awareness of their beliefs as the other people.

I agree that life can be a gift, but it can also be torment.  If you are born into a caring (and to certain degree wealthy) family, then there's a lot to see and feel, a lot to experience, and everything can be wonderful.  On the other hand, if you don't win the lottery in that sense, then your life is continuous suffering and desperate attempts to understand why this has to be, and because you're not provided with the good ground to start building yourself and your life from, you'll probably never get to the stage where you even have time to think what is "the big plan" if you're living too close to the level of continuous survival.

The question whether the bible has been changed over the years through translation error is very very unlikely. It is estimated that 99.5% of the bible is the original translation, and no doctrines are in doubt. Specific details, geographic locations which the bible speaks have been discovered in archeological digs, some even still exist. Prophecies which have come true (movement of powers in the old and new world) throughout the bible. If there was any translation errors these things still remain very accurate. There are ancient texts dated back to very near even christs time which have copies of the letters of the Apostles which make up the bible. Lots more evidence but too much to write.

So God does provide us with evidence of his omnipotency after all?   I'm not sure how accurately the prophecies are written, but the Bible for me, in parts, is a very _wise_ book, so I don't see it to be impossible to predict the future.  On the other hand, there have been non-Christian "prophets" or foretellers, so again, even though there's much more to existence than what we can see and touch or calculate, I don't see how it has to be reserved for Christian faith alone.

Belief is blind at first, but then you realise what it is all about. The relationship grows. Afterall jesus said you only need the faith as big as a mustard seed to move mountains! Of course if it is Gods will that is. To say to the Himalayas to shift aside for you wont happen, but to shift symbollic mountains of your life away, personal tragity, life struggles, this is what Jesus points to more. With just a little faith you have already so much. But belief must be with sincerity. You cant just say, ok ill test this out god, i believe if you, now show me what ur all about. You wouldn't do that if the person you most idolised in life now stood before you would you? No you would show a great deal of respect for them. So too imagine now the respect you must have for God. Respect for God is the first step to faith as Proverbs in the Bible will say.

I just see one problem with this:  God can't possibly expect us people to respect him blindly.  This reminds me of a joke in another thread ("So why do we need god?"), about kissing Hank's ass.  A relationship to something like god, which is often for some reason personified in Christianity, doesn't really require anything but an internal system of associations and a degree of potential to detach oneself from their ego.  If succesful, you're rewarded with heaps of endorfin that in turn teaches you to keep practicing this "meditation."  I don't see this model as bad, or degrading, its just a loop that the subject, in their minds that can't relate to objective, "external" reality, experiences as a too large one to fully circle (and find that the end (the God) was same as the source (the subject).  So, the further you take this relationship, the more this loop expands, the bigger the possibilities (the expanded horizon) seem, and easier it is to sit there wondering about the greatness of the loop like in a rocking chair, producing feel-good at the same time.  Of course, this is just my _subjective_ perspective on it.

The bible clearly teaches if you sin and know you are sining this is worse than sinning and not knowing you did it. For many of us Christians we know we live a life of sin, some of us cannot help but sin. So being a christian doesnt mean that you are without sin, oh definatly not! Chrisitans are as full of sin as the next person! But Christians hide behind the cross and will do the same on judgement day. We pray that Jesus takes the blows of our sin rather than totally stand alone saying we are mighty enough to stand before the judgement of sin ourselves. We know we are sinful and deserve death for our sins, so we have no hope but in Christ. Christians develop a relationship with their sin and turn it to the will of God, that is what Christianity is about, it doesn't teach you that if you are Christian you are without sin, rather it teaches you what to do with it and how to strengthen your connection with God with it.

This reminds me of what Chopiabin said, that it was a certain moment in time, when we stopped sacrificing for the God and the God was made to sacrifice to us.  Evolution of religion?

To me it sounds like the "we're always in sin" part's function is to make us feel constant guilt about being here.  Another clever, self-promoting component of Christianity is the salvation versus hell/vanishing thing - it makes Christians feel guilty if they don't attempt to convert people around them because otherwise its like knowing that a murder is about to occur but you're not doing anything to prevent it.

That sounds very true. Without faith and hope what would there be? Lots of Chaos. The world is chaotic and the unexplainable (children murdered for instance) would make us all insane if we couldn't find some spiritual value in it. But it was created not to avoid that, rather it was created so that we fufil what we where created for!

If I was created for the sole purpose of worshipping something that cannot realize itself to me in any other way than inner meditation, then why was I even given an ego that will without doubt fight against the purpose of my existence itself?  Unfortunately, my ego is now very unsatisfied with the setting that my highest value is only in worshipping something, instead of giving something to people around me, or the mankind in general, having an effect that I could immediately see, or people that come after me could see and feel.  Also, being God and all, I think its very selfish to grant consciousness to a being and then, well, enslave it to execute his (the creator's) plans, which he doesn't even bother to tell us!

Maybe some churches teach this. That's sad. We should be drawn to God because of His redeeming love for us, not to "avoid hell", although that should be PART of it. Besides, Christianity teaches that we only need to believe and trust Him. Christianity is not about human good or bad deeds. "For by GRACE are you saved thru faith. And not that of yourselves, lest any man should boast."

I was more or less predisposed to this kind of teaching when I was a kid, and I've seen so numerous nightmares of the hell and the devil that I can't really feel anything but bitterness towards Christianity.  I'm certain, that the "sources" that "taught" me, were very confident about the good-meaningess of their teachings/preachings and probably only wanted to save my poor soul.  But can God even be found through fear?  I don't remember seeing many dreams of the God or angels.    I should probably get more familiar with the Bible, because I've found that usually when the man picks it up, it becomes influenced by his rottenness

Huh? What makes you think that God is underestimating us? I'm confused.

He doesn't explain things to us, only scares with hell and lures with paradise, but offers no explanation to the most burning questions or even hints to any existentialistic questions.  Everything that I've read in the Bible is very pragmatically oriented and Jesus always uses metaphors and analogies from the ordinary everyday life to explain ethical axioms to people.

You're right. God didn't pull a pen out of His pocket and write it. It was written by many humans, but it is inspired by God. He told them what to write. This sounds crazy to us humans.

What I'm worried about is that did it come out as planned, and if it did, was God keeping an eye on us instructing all the interpreters and translators with his godly voice if they made a typo or misinterpreted a phrase?  Certainly he's not watching over all the disgusting people that actually make money by reforming the Bible in minor ways to suit their "school" that is only calculated to bring largest scale of different people to support the religion (or rather the neo-religious commercial institution).

Not really. God doesn't want us to "blindly follow Him". Rather, He tells us to search it out, test it ourselves. He tells us to believe with all of our hearts AND our MINDS!

As rosy as it sounds, I've gotten a different impression.


Thanks to you both for bothering



And then, more generally:

As somebody already brought up, science and religion aren't mutually exclusive, although some people seem to think so.  Nowadays atheism is very trendy, but for most atheists, it is mostly based on believing just as in case of religions.  If "There is no god" is a dogm, then one can't keep their mind open the moment that god - be it any god - appears to them, in form or another.  Science also isn't even close to explaining "why", but "how", and that's a major difference.

[willcowskitz]

This site is screwed, my posts appear twice though I posted ONCE, I clicked ONCE, and they appear as mumbojumbo (which they probably are anyway), and certain quoted paragraphs disappear by themselves when I try to modify the original message... ETC ETC