Baby grand vs. good quality upright

[danny elfboy]

I'm still trying to understand what's better for someone who is studying for a piano diploma at conservatory or university music faculty.
Let's premise that a gran piano 6-7 foot long, is not something everyone can afford and I don't only mean money wise but also for room problems and neighbourhood (a 6-7 foot grand piano has a stronger and more vibrating sound than an upright and it's therefore more annoying ... maybe not even legal in apartments on buildings as far as the threshold of volume is concerned)

But I was reading these threads:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2242.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,19348.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,6468.0.html

The bottom line seems a big controversy between those who say that switching to a grand is an important pianist step and those who say that it's not a real need and there are many pianists who never switched to a grand, those who say that since the strings are shorter it's best to have an high upright than a small grand and those who say the hell with the sound it's the action which is important and it's best for technique development on a grand piano even a baby than a good quality upright.

I want to re-open this debate and see what conclusions we can reach since I'm still a bit confused as to what the better solution is supposed to be

[mwf]

I'm still trying to understand what's better for someone who is studying for a piano diploma at conservatory or university music faculty.
Let's premise that a gran piano 6-7 foot long, is not something everyone can afford and I don't only mean money wise but also for room problems and neighbourhood (a 6-7 foot grand piano has a stronger and more vibrating sound than an upright and it's therefore more annoying ... maybe not even legal in apartments on buildings as far as the threshold of volume is concerned)

Hi danny, I would suggest a good digital piano such as CLP270/280, Kawai CA-9 or perhaps even the less impressive IMO Roland HP-107, so as far as noise is concerned, you can turn down the volume but still practice for a diploma, the footprint is roughly the same as an upright also.

MWF

[danny elfboy]

Hi danny, I would suggest a good digital piano such as CLP270/280, Kawai CA-9 or perhaps even the less impressive IMO Roland HP-107, so as far as noise is concerned, you can turn down the volume but still practice for a diploma, the footprint is roughly the same as an upright also.

MWF

But let's say one already owns a very good upright which sounds very good but would though of switching to a grand/baby grand because of the better action (hammers hit the string quicker and goes back to their position quicker thanks to the force of gravity) would really a good digital provides better faster action than a very good upright?

And it's worth the switch because of the better action of the mechanic of grand pianos?

[txmuslguy]

Hello Danny,

  This is such a subjective subject, so many pros and cons on both sides of the arguement concerning an upright vs. a grand, or a grand vs. an upright. It really comes down to YOUR particular situation--e.g. will practice be considered noise by other apartment dwellers or family, then a good electronic keyboard is almost a must. A good upright might be the exact need if you live in a small house or an apartment. Maybe you're lucky enough to have a large enough house that will accomidate a small, medium, or large grand piano.  Affordability also has to be considered. Again, it depends upon YOUR particular situation.  Look over YOUR situation, be honest with yourself, and make a decision with all the factors in mind---How much can "I" REALLY afford to spend on a piano? Do I need to really consider an electronic keyboard beacause of "noise" condsiderations? Do I really have the room to accomidate a small, med, or large grand?
   With regard to an upright vs grand. One could write books and argue endlessly over the pros and cons of both instruments. Again, it's all subjective to each individual person.  WHAT PLAYS AND SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU WILL NOT BE WORTH A DAMN IN SOMEONE ELSES OPINION!  Pianos are way to an emotional object to get a clear consensous from everybody.
   I'll give you my observations from owning and playing on both an upright and a grand.
For the past 10 yrs or so I took lessons and played/practiced at home on a Baldwin Studio Upright.  It had nice tone, served me well, but I always pined for a grand. I liked the look of a grand, the sound quality, "touch and response". I finally bought a grand for my birthday last year and haven't regretted it since--a Yamaha C3--used. One of those pianos bought as a piece of furniture and hardly ever played. Yes, I made several compromises when I bought the Yamaha, but my budget dictated those choices. A Stainway 6' grand "would" have been nice, but at 1 and a half to 2 X's as much as the Yamaha.  The Yamaha plays pretty darn good, sounds great, and I still get a flutter in my heart when I come downstairs and lay eyes on it in the morning. You might say I'm a bit in love with her.
   Anyway, to shorten this story. Make an honest assessment of what you "desire", then realize compromises may have to be made at this time and buy the best you can afford and fit in the space you have at home. Once you identify the affordability/space issues, then go out and play as many pianos as you can that fit those parameters.  Once you find and have your new love home, belive me, you will forget all the other opinions and see the instrument as the most perfect piano in the world.
Best luck finding what you are looking for,
TX

[jepoy]

IMO (also my piano technician's), a baby grand is equivalent to a high-quality upright piano. My advice is to skip the baby grand and invest in at least a 6-foot grand if you have ample room space or if you wouldn't have noise problems with the neighbor. Otherwise, invest in a high-quality upright piano or perhaps a really good digital piano.

[pianoexcellence]

DO not buy a digital piano.

People who play primarily on digital pianos have difficulty controlling pedal nuance, tone projection, and overtone awareness. at the conservatory level, these are fundamentals. Try half pedal on any digital, and you will be dissapointed.  Try to shift the unacorda onto the soft part of the hammer for a new tone, and you will be dissapointed. Try to experience the glow of overtones reverberating from a bass note to the undampened treble section, and you will be dissapointed.

Worst of all, your audience will immediately sense your sloppiness in these and more areas.

A good upright is better than a small grand (unless the scale design in the baby grand is exquisite) Judge the grand by it's sound (Since touch is generally superior) and judge the upright by it's touch, (since scale design can be more thought out in an expensive upright)

There's my opinion......hope it helps.

[alzado]

I agree with pianoexcellence.

A very high-quality upright is fine.  Most people buy grands for the prestige factor.

For some homes, given room size, an upright makes more sense.  Grands tend to waste a lot of space.

So much of this is preference, too.  What do you most want?

[alzado]

Let me start by saying I do not want to offend you.

However, reading your initial posting, I cannot find any idea of what YOU consider a "baby grand."

I have a grand, but play at my lesson on an upright.  They are different, but neither seems to limit me. 

Some of it is just one's personal preference. 

[hghg]

I personally think that a baby grand is the better one. Uprights are good enough for when you are learning to play the piano, but when you start with the REAL music like Bach, Chopin and Beethoven's big stuff, you really can't play that stuff on an upright. It's really worth it to spend that whole lot of money and invest in a good, quality-sound piano. But let's face it, grand pianos are very, very, very expensive, but if you want to be seen as professional...

hghg

[richard black]

Digital 'pianos' are only any use at all for emergencies, accompanying singers in venues without a piano (under protest) and 'dummy keyboard' duty for working out fingerings and stuff. You can't learn to play piano properly on one because they aren't pianos and don't in any way behave the same. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter in the end whether you have an upright or grand. Get something you like the sound of because it will depress you to have to practise on something you hate. Otherwise, probably the most important tip I can pass on is to play as many different pianos as possible on a regular basis. Few people can play as many as me (I'm a freelance accompanist so I regularly do sessions on 4 or 5 pianos a day) and I find it incredibly useful.

[danny elfboy]

Also I was reading that some of the winners at the Tchaikovsky and Chopin competitions didn't practice on grand or even good quality brand pianos at home.

[richard black]

Interesting note on grand versus upright pianos: I've got one of each, in different rooms, and the upright makes far more noise in the room beneath it than does the grand. In the room with each piano they're about the same volume (it's a big and excellent upright, while the grand lives with its lid completely shut) but the grand seems to be the _more_ neighbour-friendly instrument, surprisingly.

[danny elfboy]

I personally think that a baby grand is the better one. Uprights are good enough for when you are learning to play the piano, but when you start with the REAL music like Bach, Chopin and Beethoven's big stuff, you really can't play that stuff on an upright.

Of course you CAN!
As I said there have been professional pianists that never had the means to practice on grand pianos. So even when they were practicing pieces like Hungarian Rapsodies or Islamey they practiced them an upright piano for their exams.

One could say that the "double escape" mechanic of grand pianos is necessary for certain piece. Some even said Chopin Etudes are possible only with "double escapement" but they seem to forget that Chopin himself hated double escapement and never practiced on pianos with double escapement.

My doubt has always been to which extent a grand piano make it easier to practice certain advanced pieces but there's no doubt in my mind that you can get your conservatory/university diploma practicing the virtuoso repertory on an upright ... in nothing because many pianists followed such route because they had no money or room to buy and practice on grands.

[lostinidlewonder]

6ft+ grands are not classified as baby grands. A baby grand in my opinion would be under 6.

The problem with buying baby grands if you do not by a reputable make then you are simply wasting your money. A lot of uninformed buyers simply believe that a baby grand is as good as the best uprights, this is sadly wrong.  Many also believe that because it is a cheap grand it must be better than an upright the same price, this is of course is not true.

You can buy very expensive quality uprights for over $30,000 Australian Dollars and they are brilliant pianos. I have performed on top of the line Yamaha uprights and they are loud enough for a small concert hall 200-300 ppl if you open it all up. You can buy baby grands for under $5,000 and they are a piece of junk.

To say that buying larger grands 7ft and over is unaffordable is not true either. I bought a 7 ft 4" Kawai grand recently for $12,000 and have seen the same one for retail $80,000. But it took me over half a year to find it, it didn't just fall into my lap. I have also seen Steinway Model D go for $40,000 (properly restrung and in good condition).

I own a Zimmerman Baby grand which feel the worst out of all my pianos, but I keep it because the Church that looks after has a lot of dark wood and the color of the grand fits perfectly. It is also sounds quite ok if tuned up.

You could get a Yamaha C3 grand for under $10,000 if you look hard. But most stores would probably take you for $15,000 + . A high quality upright for the same price in my mind would be usually better sounding. I have played on junk C3's and great C3s so you have to definately look around. But if you get an upright which costs 10,000+ you will much more often than not get a great instrument, you simply cannot say the same for grand pianos. It costs more to make a grand so you will pay more for less quality if that makes sense. There is also that prestige influence that buyers blind themselves with. A piano is a piano no matter what shape it is, you have to play it and decide if it makes a good sound or not, if the keys feel good under your fingers or not. If you have no idea then it doesn't matter which piano you get does it? But if you can start making your own decision as to what sounds good or not then you can be picky about the pianos you buy.

Most people wouldn't know the difference between one piano and the other. I have had students of mine play on my Zimmerman and think it was as good as my Steinway. What can you do about these people? Just buy cheap pianos its all you need!