WHAT IS THE MOST DIFFICULT PIECE FOR PIANO?

[mirmidon28]

What is the most difficult piece por fiano? I wish to konw that, and it would be better if this piece is beauty too. Thanks.

[pianowelsh]

Not another one? are you related to op10/2??

Seriously there are tons of 'the hardest piece' threads im sure you can find a satisfactory answer in one of those.

[ahinton]

So much so, in fact, that Nils may as well rename this the Most Difficult Piano Forum...

Best,

Alistair

[maxy]

how come you did not mention Sorabji? Mister Curator 

[jakev2.0]

So much so, in fact, that Nils may as well rename this the Most Difficult Piano Forum...

Best,

Alistair

Heh, this pun works on many levels. Good one, Alistair. 

[imbetter]

sorabji opus clavibaslibucketcalifragilistic is definatly the hardest piece. I mean, who could play that type of difficulty for 5 HOURS STRAIGHT. It simply befuddles me

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I do not know the piece you are referring to there Jonathan, but can assure you that there are definately works lasting on average much longer than 5 hours by Sorabji.

[apion]

Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum has the reputation as being the most difficult ... but I really can't say, because I haven't performed all compositions ever written.

[phil13]

Here is the list, repeated last week for the past few weeks ad nauseum every d@mn week by Soliloquy to all these similar threads.

Barlow Cogluotobusletismesi
Barrett Tract
Bussotti Pour Clavier
Cage Etudes Australes
Diaz-Infante Solus
Dillon The Books of Elements
Finnissy all.fall.down.
Finnissy Folklore
Finnissy History of Photography in Sound
Finnissy Solo Concerto No. 4
Flynn Trinity
Globokar Notes
Heyn "203"
Hoban When the Panting STARTS
Martino Pianississimo
Otte Das Buch der Klange
Phurrer Phasma
Rzewski The Road
Scelsi Action Music
Skalkottas 32 Piano Pieces
Sorabji Opus Archimagicum
Sorabji Sequentia Cyclica Super "Dies Irae" ex Missa pro Defunctis
Sorabji Symphonic Variations
Stockhausen Klavierstuck VI
Stockhausen Klavierstuck X
Xenakis Erikhthon
Xenakis Evryali
Xenakis Keqrops
Xenakis Sieben Klavierstucken
Xenakis Synaphai
Yim :[ten]dril
Zimmermann Wustenwanderung

USE THE FRIGGIN SEARCH FUNCTION PLEASE.

Phil

[jre58591]

sorabji opus clavibaslibucketcalifragilistic is definatly the hardest piece. I mean, who could play that type of difficulty for 5 HOURS STRAIGHT. It simply befuddles me

WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS MENTION THIS FRIGGIN PIECE? THERE ARE MUCH HARDER ONES OUT THERE!!!

check skepto's list above.

[ahinton]

Greetings.

I do not know the piece you are referring to there Jonathan, but can assure you that there are definately works lasting on average much longer than 5 hours by Sorabji.

Indeed so. Wrong title, wrong Jonathan, it would seem...

Best,

Alistair

[dnephi]

Solil=Skep?

Ah.   
Personally vote for all.fall.down.  I don't think anyone but the composer can play that.

[wesball94]

It happens to be Flight of the Bumblebee by Rimsky-Korkovski

[mephisto]

WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS MENTION THIS FRIGGIN PIECE? THERE ARE MUCH HARDER ONES OUT THERE!!!

check skepto's list above.

That list is most likelya  collection of all the pieces Skepto thinks most people have never heard about. I know some of them and they are 100 times easier than Opus Clavicembalisticum.

[soliloquy]

That list is most likelya  collection of all the pieces Skepto thinks most people have never heard about. I know some of them and they are 100 times easier than Opus Clavicembalisticum.

Which of those would that be?

[mephisto]

Skalkottas 32 Piano Pieces

[soliloquy]

Skalkottas 32 Piano Pieces

One out of thirty-two?  Holy cow that's almost 3.5%!!!


Compelling.  You also forgot some of the pieces I didn't mention.  Such as about 15 works by Finnissy and another 5 by Sorabji.  But I was trying to keep the list at least slightly diverse.

[mephisto]

One out of thirty-two?  Holy cow that's almost 3.5%!!!


Compelling.  You also forgot some of the pieces I didn't mention.  Such as about 15 works by Finnissy and another 5 by Sorabji.  But I was trying to keep the list at least slightly diverse.

You might just conatin Bach's 1st prelude from the 1st wtc to pick a piece from the baroque era.

[soliloquy]

You might just conatin Bach's 1st prelude from the 1st wtc(or was it what?) to pick a piece from the baroque era.

I might?  I actually doubt that.  Also, if you indeed have the Skalkottas, you know that several of those pieces are much much MUCH harder than any durationally comparable passage or selection from Opus Clavicembalisticum.

[jre58591]

That list is most likelya  collection of all the pieces Skepto thinks most people have never heard about. I know some of them and they are 100 times easier than Opus Clavicembalisticum.

ive actually heard a good enough number of those pieces to know that many of them are much harder than the OC. hell, the sorabji pieces that he mentioned already blow the OC out of the water.

yes, i have heard the skalkottas 32 pieces. i had only heard selections before and they didnt sound too bad. now that ive heard most of the 32, i can say that they compete pretty well with it. but, unfortunately, they only sum up to about 2 hours, so endurance is something that OC definitely requires more of.

[opus10no2]

Chopin's op10no2 requires more physical endurance than the OC.

[jre58591]

get out. your comments are useless and stupid in this thread.

[opus10no2]

get out. your comments are useless and stupid in this thread.

Not quite.

To clarify -

The recordings by Rudenko and Wunder of Chopin's 10/2 are more impressive feats of physical endurance than the recordings by Madge and Ogdon of the OC.

Think about it, and then attempt to refute, or concede your own stupidity. 

[jre58591]

The recordings by Rudenko and Wunder of Chopin's 10/2 are more impressive feats of physical endurance than the recordings by Madge and Ogdon of the OC.

Think about it, and then attempt to refute, or concede your own stupidity. 

just because rudenko and wunder can play it quicker than most other people does not make it a "more impressive feat of physical endurace" than the OC just because you say so. you must remember that 10-2 is only about a minute and a half flong (or shorter in rudenko and wunder's case) and that the OC is 4 hours long. there is no question and no debating that the OC is more impressive than 10-2, no matter who plays either one.

and you shouldnt even mention stupidity. im not the one that thinks piano playing is all about playing every piece as fast as possible. i think many, if not all, of the members here would agree that that is a stupid way to enjoy piano playing.

[opus10no2]

So you are not only slow of mind, but also slow of finger.

Playing the OC may take 4 hours, but at no point within those 4 hours(in the performances of Madge and Ogdon) is there a single display of mechanique which could approach a circa 1 min 10/2.

Performing the OC like Madge takes great sight-reading skills and a mediocre level of technique.
Performing the 10/2 like Rudenko takes years, even decades of disciplined practice of the piece.

[chromatickler]

Performing the OC like Madge takes great sight-reading skills...

ahahah not even

[jre58591]

we shall see when powell's rec comes out how impressive the OC really is. ogdon plays it much better than madge, but even his lacks a bit. and btw, i can easily think of a few passages in the OC that dont even last 30 seconds that require more technical skill than all of chopin 10-2 put together. shall i take a few screenshots?

[opus10no2]

Sure, thake them.

It's all relative to tempo, show the section and I'd tell you the tempo it would have to be taken at to be of comparable difficulty to the 10/2 at Rudenko tempo.

[jre58591]

jsut tell me, what am i proving by doing this? that OC is lierally 10,000 times harder? this is senseless.





the first is taken from the interludium primum and the second is taken from the cadenza.

[opus10no2]

First page is some octaves, scales, chords, and tremolos.

Coordinationally this is quite advanced, obviously, but it would have to be played at an extreme tempo to compare with Rudenko's 10/2.

No single figuration is really extended much at all, so technical 'sleeps' are afforded, where one area of mechanique is used, then rested to allow another.

The second example has scales and unusual double-note figurations in both hands.
To play this type of figuration at any kind of impressive speed, it would have to be memorised and ingrained in the fingers.
The likelyhood and practicality of doing this is extremely minimal, so I would assume even Powell does not fully realise the potential of this passage in any of his performances/recording.

You haven't convinced me of anything, only your perpetual ignorance.

[jre58591]

oh screw this. im clearly wasting my time here. if you want to believe that 10-2 is more difficult than OC, then so be it. whatever makes you happy.

[opus10no2]

I didn't say that.

You evidently have little practical knoweldge of what the process in preparing to perform and actually performing pieces like the OC is.

I said that Rudenko's 10/2 is a greater feat of physical endurance than any existing recording of the OC.

[cygnusdei]

Isn't this like comparing a 100 m dash to a marathon?

Shoot me ......

[opus10no2]

Isn't this like comparing a 100 m dash to a marathon?

Shoot me ......

Not really, it's more like comparing average paced multiple short dashes over a period of time while doing calculus to sprinting 100m on one leg in 15 seconds.

[jre58591]

You evidently have little practical knoweldge of what the process in preparing to perform and actually performing pieces like the OC is.

of course, i will second that. ive never performed a piece so difficult or so long as OC. and of what relevance is this? lets just end this topic herem for we are obviously getting nowhere.

[opus10no2]

No, because you don't understand the amount of COMPROMISE involved.

The sheer nature of the piece leads one to preclude that it cannot be memorised.
The performances of the piece, thus far, have been basically sight-read.

To 'learn' this piece, Ogdon and Madge repeatedly sight-read the more complex passages, gained familiarity with the music, and then performed/recorded it with the sheet music.

Of course this takes an enormous amount of experience with more difficult music, and sight-reading, but not particularly a high level of technical facility.

A high level of technical facility can only be utilized and shown off with music that is in the fingers.

And besides this, do either Ogdon or Madge have a technique of the level of Hamelin or Wunder?

[jre58591]

And besides this, do either Ogdon or Madge have a technique of the level of Hamelin or Wunder?

well, ogdon obviously doesnt because hes dead and madge is just a plain hack, sorabji or not. and yes, you may be right about the sightreading thing partly, but some passages simply cannot be sightread because of the high volume of notes. and i know for a fact that ogdon had performed this piece for quite some time, at least 30 years. i doubt he was sightreading it.

[opus10no2]

I don't mean every note is sight read, it's partial memorization in parts mixed with mostly repeated sightreading and superficial memory(ie - memory of how the music goes..but not necessarily in the fingers).

I don't think in terms of absolutes when it comes to 'the hardest piece', I think in terms of the REAL WORLD and actual practicality.

The main point I was making was regarding mechanical virtuosity and endurance.

The OC is a behemoth which is simply not a practical vehicle for displaying physical virtuosity.

It IS  a practical vehicle for displaying the sheer insanity of a pianist, and to display sight-reading skills and brain virtuosity.

[jre58591]

ok, point taken. thats all you had to say, instead of going on a tirade about how much better 10-2 is than the OC in terms of x and y. although i would say that it is a practical vehicle for physical virtuosity, just as much as what you call brain virtuosity.

[steve_m]

b

[opus10no2]

ok, point taken. thats all you had to say, instead of going on a tirade about how much better 10-2 is than the OC in terms of x and y. although i would say that it is a practical vehicle for physical virtuosity, just as much as what you call brain virtuosity.

Technically that is possible, of course, but it would take so much time out of a pianist's career to memorize and master it at that level to make it so.
I'm talking years, devoted to playing only that piece....it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH to justify this.

Your arguments are based on random assumptions that you've made up with no real facts to back them up.

You argue that the Sorabji easier because nobody plays it accurately. The difficulty IS playing it accurately. I could easily just turn your argument around the other way and say "The Chopin is easier becuase you can sight-read through it sloppily." It doesn't make any sense.

Where do you get your information on Powell? Why do you assume this can't be memorized or "Ingrained" in the fingers. Oh wait, I forgot. The likelyhood and practicality of doing this is extremely minimal. That must be true. After all, you are the chief authority on the subject of Sorabji's music.

I assume this, based on logic, and just like the odds of you being 10 feet tall, the odds of someone memorizing the OC ...AND having other memorized repertoire at the same time, is just so low it's not even worth talking about.

I don't argue only because of accuracy, I argue because of -

The 'ingraining' factor, which is impractical and highly improbably in a piece like this.
The multiplicity of techniques, though having none which have a very long time with a figuration of the difficulty of the 10/2.
 

[jre58591]

comme, stop trying to act smart. you arent convincing anyone.

[opus10no2]

A bad loser eh?

Too bad, better luck next time  .

[pies]

A bad loser eh?

Too bad, better luck next time  .

You are an annoying smartass.  I hope you get cancer.

[ahinton]

You are an annoying smartass.  I hope you get cancer.

I hope no one gets cancer. What a disgusting wish! In the meantime, I look forward to the way people react when they hear OC played by Jonathan Powell and, in the meantime of that, people could perhaps usefully anticipate what they might get by getting their heads around his existing recordings of other Sorabji works - please visit the Altarus Records website for the discography here (www.altarusrecords.com). If you have any doubts after that, then there's something wrong with your ears...

Best,

Alistair

[opus10no2]

You are an annoying smartass.  I hope you get cancer.

[cygnusdei]

 

[soliloquy]

As ego-based self-proclaimed "difficulty" expert, I shall jump in here unwanted, unasked and unwelcomed


Comme- you can play 10-2 pretty close to Wunder/Rudenko speed with some screw-ups, and if you had any work ethic you could spend some time and play it at the speed they do.



The operative phrase here is "Comme- you can play 10-2"



nuff
said

[opus10no2]

Skep, you can play some Xenakis and Finnissy 

[steve_m]

4