Chopin and rubato

[steve jones]

There is something that I fail to understand about modern interpretations of Chopin. Everything that I read suggests that he intended rubato primarily for the singing melodies in the right hand, with accompanying figures being played strictly.

So why is it that so many modern day pianists take such liberties in this area?

I mean, if you listen to many interpretations of Op69 No1, you will hear some wildly exaggerated rubato. Same with many of his Nocturnes... well, much of his output!

Anyone care to explain this?

Or perhaps I am misunderstanding something?

SJ

[cygnusdei]

That description is useful for polyrhythmic runs found in many of Chopin's writings, but certainly not sufficient.

Not documented is the more customary form of rubato, i.e. slowing down of the overall metre. IMHO applying rubato only at the end of phrases is enough in most cases, otherwise it ruins the phrase.

[pianistimo]

if it's REALLY gradual it's not obvious in the lh.  but, at the end of EVERY phrase - it can be somewhat monotonous or expected.  i am actually kindof ashamed of my recording of the nocturne now - because with the computer you can speed up the playing and see exactly where your faults are.  mine is with not keeping the left hand even on this newer piece and it is my intention to start practicing it more in time - and letting the rh be the one to give cues to the lh after a couple of phrases or more.  perhaps even only by mid piece - to have done anything with the tempo -unless indicated.  the stableness of a tempo allows your mind to wander to other more pressing matters as to the actual interpretation you are going to present.  the 'whole' instead of the 'pieces.'  my last teacher was a stickler for this - and his nocturnes were much more effective than mine.

[steve jones]

I must admit, I do like the sound of mild overall rubato.

But in my inexperience, I had become accustom to hearing a more exaggerated rubato in many modern recordings. Now, after a little research, I find that this is certainly not what was intended by the old boy!

I like man of Pollini's Chopin recordings, for this very reason - he seems to keep the rubato expressive yet tasteful.

Though Im still surprised at how many abuse tempo in their interpretations. This seems to be a pretty fundamental aspect of playing Chopin, right?

SJ

[cygnusdei]

Perahia's third sonata is an example of restrained yet unnatural/unconvincing rubato.

For disastrous rubato, listen to Walter Hautzig's first ballade.

[counterpoint]

I find it very difficult to discuss rubato issues in an abstract way.

It should be stated as concrete as possible: in which piece, in which bar, on which note the tempo enlarges or speeds up. And why one thinks, you should do this - or why you should not, in this special case. Some people think, they are on the save side, when they play as the metronome ticks. It might be the save side, but it doesn't prove anything except that you can play very evenly. A machine can play very even too, but does a machine play better musically?

[pianistimo]

i think we're talking extremes here.  chopin, obviously meant his music to be emotional.  but, the emotion comes in not by metronomic left hand - nor by giving rubato to eVERY phrase.  that is piecemeal. 

i'm not sure who my favorite interpreters are of the etudes - i think pollini.  jean-yves thibeaudet ? plays pretty well, too.  i think they are conservative in rubato - but give the 'effect' of the overall feel of the piece.  what the whole is about.

[counterpoint]

If you show me a convincing recording of any Chopin pianowork, which doesn't have a great part of rubato in it, then I will be very surprised.

Many years ago, I thought, Pollini did play very strictly and metronomic. I wasn't able to hear, that even Pollini has a very free tempo, full of rubatos all the time - as every good pianist.

[cygnusdei]

A test for one's rubato skills (lol) should be to play the Nocturne in C# minor, Op. posth. Well, actually if one can pull this off convincingly he/she would have passed rubato, tone control, phrasing, pedaling, etc. in flying colors.

[pianistimo]

is that = to 20 a or 20 b ?  there's two of them, i see.  was 'b' a reworking?  off to play chopin's c# minor nocturne.  hardy har har.

[steve jones]

If you show me a concing recording of any Chopin pianowork, which doesn't have a great part of rubato in it, then I will be very surprised.

Many years ago, I thought, Pollini did play very strictly and metronomic. I wasn't able to hear, that even Pollini has a very free tempo, full of rubatos all the time - as every good pianist.

I agree. I dont know if this is the correct term, but to me, Pollini's rubato sounds natural. I say that in as much as it seems to sleep up and slow down with the natural contour of the music's phrasing.

SJ

[cygnusdei]

is that = to 20 a or 20 b ?  there's two of them, i see.  was 'b' a reworking?  off to play chopin's c# minor nocturne.  hardy har har.

You must have the Henle urtext? Well, every recording I've heard is of the first version (with the binary metre).

[counterpoint]

I agree. I dont know if this is the correct term, but to me, Pollini's rubato sounds natural. I say that in as much as it seems to sleep up and slow down with the natural contour of the music's phrasing.

SJ

Exactly what I think. The target is a  rubato, that sounds as natural as possible. Never think that rubato is an easy thing or that you can do it by chance. It depends on the character of the piece, the line of the melody, the harmonic progression, the dynamic.
Lot of work, but it's worth it.

[steve jones]

Perhaps I am greatly simplifying things... but I tend to find that the rubato for a piece comes naturally without any particular focus. I just learn the piece, and that kind of happens on its own!

Whether I am making a pigs ear of it or not remains on the table! 

SJ

[pianistimo]

maybe the key is that most people don't experiment.  they stay with 'staid' interpretations that they've either heard or think is appropriate.  one thing i have learned although i don't always have the time - is to try three or four things out in what you think are good spots for emphasis and see what it sounds like.  one thing i've learned online, here, too - is that if you speed up your own (or someone elses) recording a bit - you can immediately pick out areas that don't seem 'smooth.'

thanks for identifying the difference as the time signature, too, in the c# nocturne variations.  the second one is in cut time in my book - so twice as fast as the first?  is that what you mean by binary?  he made it twice the speed before and changed some things about the piece?  for instance, there's no 'lento con gran espressione' anymore - but a working out of the intro at the same speed as the rest of the piece but 'pp.'

[cygnusdei]

With Chopin I won't feel queasy at all going by instincts - worst case scenario people will say 'too individual' or 'not my cup of tea'. But for Beethoven I guess you really need expert advice, especially for late Beethoven. Personally I have a problem with liberal tempo changes in Beethoven - for me it's not a matter open to interpretation. It's just plain wrong.

Sorry for hijacking the thread