pianisimmo vs pianistimo

[pianistimo]

just wanted to make sure there is a distinction here.  happy to meet you.  creation of ramseytheii to annoy me, i'm sure.  next creation:  ramseyythei 

*forgive me if i've again broken an unbroken rule.  and, as thal says

ps  i still luv ya.  you inspire a lot of thought and enjoyable reading.

[lau]

 i always thought your name was a mix of "pianist" and "pianissimo" (the dynamic marking)

i hope i am right

[pianistimo]

yes.  you are correct.  it's a sort of double-entendre.  pianist imo  and pianissimo.  but who is pianisimmo?  it's kind of scary meeting an alter-ego.  what if they don't believe in the bible and people think i'm saying this - and then say that?  what if this person is male and i'm female.  what if they are 18 and i'm 45.  scarier yet - what if everything about them is exactly the same as me - and they live in pennsylvania?  what if i am about to be the victim of identity theft?  what if it is the 'chameleon' woman trying to do me in.  wait.  she's dead.  she shot herself after the last victim.

[ahinton]

Maybe the other one's Joyce Hatto...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

in that case...i'd want to be her.  (must remember, joyce is my name )

[ahinton]

in that case...i'd want to be her.  (must remember, joyce is my name )

I don't think so in either case, since Joyce Hatto is also dead (or almost certainly so)...

Best,

Alistair

[timothy42b]

I would consider picking something easier to spell. 

[ahinton]

I would consider picking something easier to spell. 

Like "Susan", for example?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

are you now implying that i cannot spell?  admittedly - when i type fast - letters get moved around or omitted.  but, i CAN spell my name.  i never could spell massachusettes though.

[ahinton]

are you now implying that i cannot spell?  admittedly - when i type fast - letters get moved around or omitted.  but, i CAN spell my name.  i never could spell massachusettes though.

I'm not suggesting that - but then I wasn't replying to you, so don't get so pianistemotional about it! I mistype things myself, too. You can almost spell Massachusetts, by the way...

Best,

Alistair

[ada]

in that case...i'd want to be her.  (must remember, joyce is my name )

Joyce Hatto has been internationally shamed as a plagiarist. She wanted to be remembered as a great pianist but now she'll only be remembered as that sad, desperate woman who pulled off a massive dishonest scam.

why would you want to be her?

[pianistimo]

her husband did it to her.  she did not have the energy (or the lack of integrity, probably).  but, hey - what if the confession was forced from william barrington-coupe.  after all - he's in his 80's.  what if someone went to his house and forced him to write the letter.

well- it's a continual drama.  as long as nobody ends up dead.  kids do this kind of thing all the time on u-tube probably.  you know -post videos of themselves 'supposedly' from the arms down - when it's actually their teacher.  hmmm.  gives me an idea.  excepting his arms are a little bit hairy.  not much.  i could ask him to shave them and then play some of my pieces for me.  and wear my wedding band?  hmm.  i don't think it would fit on any one of his fingers.  plus - he would really start wondering when i pointed a camera in his direction.  he'd stop - put his hand up and say 'no - i don't do this for free.'  then - i'd have to come up with some kind of story in which i would cry and tell him i was at the end stages of cancer and i really needed a final good recording of myself.  ?  what good pianist would do this anyways?  i don't want to sound like anybody else.  i'm sure joyce hatto was content with her already existing recordings.

*never trust a man.

[ahinton]

Joyce Hatto has been internationally shamed as a plagiarist. She wanted to be remembered as a great pianist but now she'll only be remembered as that sad, desperate woman who pulled off a massive dishonest scam.

why would you want to be her?

I think that your statement here is rather premature. Until and unless it is proved beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that Joyce Hatto was complicit in this exercise, either as a result of having directly and deliberately participated in it or evn only by being conscious of what was being done in her name, it will not stand up as fact. I am not, of course, suggesting that plagiarism did not occur; indeed, the fact that it did occur on an unprecedented scale seems now to be beyond all question. What I do say, at least for the time being, however, is that we do not know yet precisely who was responsible for making and issuing the CDs or who knew about this exercise at all stages.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

her husband did it to her.  she did not have the energy (or the lack of integrity, probably).  but, hey - what if the confession was forced from william barrington-coupe.  after all - he's in his 80's.  what if someone went to his house and forced him to write the letter.

Your statements here, if taken literally, are indicative of your having considerable first-hand knowledge of the case and, if you really did have that knowledge (which I'm certain you don't), I'm quite sure that you'd be keeping it to yourself.

As far as is known, WB-C is aged 76, i.e. a couple of years younger than Joyce Hatto appears to have been; we do not yet have evidence of WB-C's date of birth (and I believe that his surname may at some point have been assumed), but his and JH's birth, marriage and death certificates are being sought and, so far, it seems that the two did indeed marry in 1956, although her surname on the marriage certificate was shown (correctly or otherwise) as "Hatts", not "Hatto". We do not know for certain when she died or of what, but until someone can confirm otherwise, her date of death is being accepted as late last June.

The notion that the "confession" - insofar as it is such (see below) - may have been forced from WB-C is highly unlikely; such "confession" as he has so far made is in a private communication with Robert von Bahr, owner of the Swedish label BIS (one of the record companies affected by the Hatto business), albeit with no strictures upon Mr von Bahr for publicising any or all of it, so had Mr von Bahr decided to keep it to himself, we would have heard no "confession" at all, unless W-BC had decided to issue a public one separately (which he has not done to date). Such a "confession" as has been made could therefore only have been "forced" from him by Mr von Bahr himself or one of his company's staff and, since Mr von Bahr had already gone public a week before he received it to state that BIS would be taking no legal action against WB-C, this almost certainly did not happen.

As it is, the "confession" itself has many holes in it, not least the absence of admission as to how many of the 119 CDs are fakes, the lack of information as to which labels and artists have had their work stolen and the fatuous nonsense about having done this for his wife, a suggestion made for no reason other than in a pathetic and failed attempt to garner the sympathy vote and made all the more ridiculously untenable by his parallel implications that his wife knew nothing about what was going on in her name. How could he have done this for his wife - however misguided it would have been to have done so in any case - if his wife really knew nothing about it? Furthermore, if that was really his motive, why did he carry on with the exercise after his wife's death?

You are not the only person to suggest that Joyce Hatto's husband did this "to" her rather than "for" her - and this is certainly how it looks from here right now. We do not yet know, however, the extent of his or anyone else's implication in what has been discovered to date. All that seems likely is that every one of those 119 CDs is a fake and that the CDs weren't faked by accident. It also seems unlikely that WB-C did all this entirely unaided, even though it seems very likely that he was in charge of the operation.

Whether or not and to what extent JH may have been personally implicated in it, either by means of deliberate participation or even by passive awareness and tacit sanction of what was being done in her name, has also yet to be determined with accuracy. Interviews with JH were not conducted face to face and so these, too, could have been faked, as may the correspondence from JH to various people and JH in recent years; indeed, since the CDs themselves are fakes, the interviews and correspjdence would almost certainly have had to be likewise, otherwise the scam might have risked being uncovered sooner. If it is eventually discovered that JH was indeed fully implicated, it will be necessary to determine what her motive was, as well as what WB-C's was; at present, neither motive is clear.

well- it's a continual drama.  as long as nobody ends up dead.

At the moment, I can think of only one person who may end up dead as a consequence of the continuing investigations and I do not think that I need either to name that person or suggest that his death may come about by any other hand than his own...

what good pianist would do this anyways?  i don't want to sound like anybody else.  i'm sure joyce hatto was content with her already existing recordings.

I think it highly unlikely that Joyce Hatto actually did this herself; it was almost certainly done by others, with or without her knowledge or sanction. We have no idea what she may have thought of her earlier recordings. Most of the biographical material about her is either false or unproveable. We do not yet know enough about the cancer story, either. It would be most unusual for anyone suffering from ovarian cancer in the latter 1960s (she was allegedly diagnosed with this disease in 1970) to survive until 2006 at all, let alone make 119 CDs during that time, as WB-C alleged until very recently that she did; so, now that we (a) know that the CDs are fakes, (b) suspect that the interviews are fakes, (c) believe that at least some of the correspondence allegedly by and from JH may also have been wholly or partly faked and (d) know that a substantial quantity of biographical information simply won't stand up to scrutiny, why would we be expected to swallow whole the idea that she lived with and suffered from ovarian cancer for almost four decades? Sorry, but this may in the end turn out to be nothing more than part of the sob-story stuff...

*never trust a man.

One of these is writing this to you now; it's entirely up to you whether and to what extent you trust any or all of it...

Best,

Alistair

[rebby]

Your statements here, if taken literally, are indicative of your having considerable first-hand knowledge of the case and, if you really did have that knowledge (which I'm certain you don't), I'm quite sure that you'd be keeping it to yourself.

As far as is known, WB-C is aged 76, i.e. a couple of years younger than Joyce Hatto appears to have been; we do not yet have evidence of WB-C's date of birth (and I believe that his surname may at some point have been assumed), but his and JH's birth, marriage and death certificates are being sought and, so far, it seems that the two did indeed marry in 1956, although her surname on the marriage certificate was shown (correctly or otherwise) as "Hatts", not "Hatto". We do not know for certain when she died or of what, but until someone can confirm otherwise, her date of death is being accepted as late last June.

The notion that the "confession" - insofar as it is such (see below) - may have been forced from WB-C is highly unlikely; such "confession" as he has so far made is in a private communication with Robert von Bahr, owner of the Swedish label BIS (one of the record companies affected by the Hatto business), albeit with no strictures upon Mr von Bahr for publicising any or all of it, so had Mr von Bahr decided to keep it to himself, we would have heard no "confession" at all, unless W-BC had decided to issue a public one separately (which he has not done to date). Such a "confession" as has been made could therefore only have been "forced" from him by Mr von Bahr himself or one of his company's staff and, since Mr von Bahr had already gone public a week before he received it to state that BIS would be taking no legal action against WB-C, this almost certainly did not happen.

As it is, the "confession" itself has many holes in it, not least the absence of admission as to how many of the 119 CDs are fakes, the lack of information as to which labels and artists have had their work stolen and the fatuous nonsense about having done this for his wife, a suggestion made for no reason other than in a pathetic and failed attempt to garner the sympathy vote and made all the more ridiculously untenable by his parallel implications that his wife knew nothing about what was going on in her name. How could he have done this for his wife - however misguided it would have been to have done so in any case - if his wife really knew nothing about it? Furthermore, if that was really his motive, why did he carry on with the exercise after his wife's death?

You are not the only person to suggest that Joyce Hatto's husband did this "to" her rather than "for" her - and this is certainly how it looks from here right now. We do not yet know, however, the extent of his or anyone else's implication in what has been discovered to date. All that seems likely is that every one of those 119 CDs is a fake and that the CDs weren't faked by accident. It also seems unlikely that WB-C did all this entirely unaided, even though it seems very likely that he was in charge of the operation.

Whether or not and to what extent JH may have been personally implicated in it, either by means of deliberate participation or even by passive awareness and tacit sanction of what was being done in her name, has also yet to be determined with accuracy. Interviews with JH were not conducted face to face and so these, too, could have been faked, as may the correspondence from JH to various people and JH in recent years; indeed, since the CDs themselves are fakes, the interviews and correspjdence would almost certainly have had to be likewise, otherwise the scam might have risked being uncovered sooner. If it is eventually discovered that JH was indeed fully implicated, it will be necessary to determine what her motive was, as well as what WB-C's was; at present, neither motive is clear.
At the moment, I can think of only one person who may end up dead as a consequence of the continuing investigations and I do not think that I need either to name that person or suggest that his death may come about by any other hand than his own...
I think it highly unlikely that Joyce Hatto actually did this herself; it was almost certainly done by others, with or without her knowledge or sanction. We have no idea what she may have thought of her earlier recordings. Most of the biographical material about her is either false or unproveable. We do not yet know enough about the cancer story, either. It would be most unusual for anyone suffering from ovarian cancer in the latter 1960s (she was allegedly diagnosed with this disease in 1970) to survive until 2006 at all, let alone make 119 CDs during that time, as WB-C alleged until very recently that she did; so, now that we (a) know that the CDs are fakes, (b) suspect that the interviews are fakes, (c) believe that at least some of the correspondence allegedly by and from JH may also have been wholly or partly faked and (d) know that a substantial quantity of biographical information simply won't stand up to scrutiny, why would we be expected to swallow whole the idea that she lived with and suffered from ovarian cancer for almost four decades? Sorry, but this may in the end turn out to be nothing more than part of the sob-story stuff...
One of these is writing this to you now; it's entirely up to you whether and to what extent you trust any or all of it...

Best,

Alistair

I am sorry, but who on this planet, appart from pianistimo, would actually WANT to read this, i mean , this isn't an English lesson.

[ahinton]

I am sorry,

Really? Are you sure about that?!

but who on this planet, appart from pianistimo, would actually WANT to read this,

I have no idea - I don't even know if pianistimo would want to read it, actually. That said, had the various circumstances surrounding this case not been revealed, there would have been no need to write any of it. Perhaps you would have preferred it to have gone undetected.

Since WB-C's cover was blown a little over a fortnight ago, there have been literally thousands of posts on various newsgroups about it, as well as many newspaper and magazine articles from all around the world. You are not obliged to read any of it, of course, if you don't want to - indeed, no one has to read any of it if they don't want to - but that doesn't stop people from writing about a fraud case as it develops and as more information and evidence is publicly gathered.

i mean , this isn't an English lesson.

Of course it isn't - but then who is suggesting either that it is one, or that it is meant to be one? Your reference to one seems to make no obvious sense at all.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

for the money?  it did cross my mind.

[ahinton]

for the money?  it did cross my mind.

Well, that's obviously one theory - and how well it may or may not stack up I cannot be certain. On the one hand, the production costs would have been vastly less than those for a real CD - no artist fees/royalties, no venue hire costs, no piano and technician hire costs, no production costs, minimal engineering costs - so the profit to turnover ratio per CD could have been between 70% and 75% even after allowing for shipping costs. However, the suggestion made by Andrew Rose at Pristine Audio in France (who was commissioned by UK journal The Gramophone to undertake the first investigations of the fake CDs) that many hundreds of copies of each title may have sold is, I think, less than likely, although I am likewise disinclined to believe WB-C's own claim that sales of the entire 119 titles have never even reached 10,000 in total. So, unless and until all the relevant accounts and other supporting evidence of sales are produced in court (which is not going to be an easy task in any case), it will be difficult to determine to what extent he may even have tried to do it for the money.

Given that the "doing it for his wife" motive is plainly unfounded rubbish, the actual motive seems to remain unclear.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

alistair, 

as you have said - i really don't know much about the case excepting what grammophone said.  and, as such - am just speculating.  i'm sure you are watching the case more closely than i.  especially since i turn to pianoforum for the latest news.  be nice on joyce hatto, though, will you.  i don't think it fair to implicate her by what WBC says before all the information is taken in.  somehow - i speculate that some other artists want her to go down like a deck of cards.

[ahinton]

be nice on joyce hatto, though, will you.  i don't think it fair to implicate her by what WBC says before all the information is taken in.  somehow - i speculate that some other artists want her to go down like a deck of cards.

WB-C is claiming (a) that he did this for his wife and (b) that she didn't know anything about it; he also continued with the CD release schedule after his wife's death. In other words, black is white except when it's green. As I wrote recently on this:

"I don't really have much idea at this point what to think about JH's involvement or otherwise in it and I have accordingly been endeavouring to urge people to lay off the "Joyce was in it too" accusations on the basis that, until sufficient evidence about the entire case has been presented and adjudged in court, such finger-pointing is at best premature and at worst inflammatory. The interview on New Zealand radio by Murray Khouri could have been faked, although it has now been suggested that (and I quote), this theory
"is pretty well refuted by Jeremy Nicholas, who interviewed Hatto in person:
https://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/Feb07/Hatto_Howell.htm#jn
The woman Nicholas interviewed ...
(1) Looked like Hatto's picture
(2) Was the same person interviewed on New Zealand Radio
(3) Spoke fluently and accurately about piano playing"
Perhaps I am being overly cautious but, in the absence of incontrovertible proof, I would extend the doubts as far as whether it is certain that the picture mentioned in (1) really was of Joyce Hatto (even if (2) and (3) are true as far as they go) and, in any case, the entire interview - or at least "JH"'s part of it - could have been pre-scripted in order to put any suspicious interested parties off the scent. I have spoken to Jeremy Nicholas (as well as Marc-André and Carlo) and, whilst he, like the rest of us, is utterly dismayed by the whole thing whatever the details of its eventual outcome may be, I suspect that he, too, is now open to suspicion as to who really did and said what."

So - no need to urge me to take any stance on Hatto's own position in all of this, since my attitude is, quite simply, that she could have been fully participatory, tacitly accepting or entirely ignorant of the entire affair and, until and unless more proof is provided and it is established beyond doubt whether her part in the interviews and the correspondence purporting to be by and from her is fake or genuine, I just don't know, so I'm not about to pretend that I do.

I don't think that other artists want her to "go down like a deck of cards", as you suggest; there's no real "down" to go. One must remember in all of this that Joyce Hatto had very little reputation to destroy before the false one that arose only very recently as a direct result of the fake CDs, so all in all it balances out - she had nothing much to lose before it, so if from her early 70s she rapidly gained some repute and then equally rapidly had it taken from beneath her, she ends up more or less quits. If she is conclusively proven to have been a full participant in the entire scam, however, she would still lose little reputation as a pianist (since she had hardly any to begin with) but would gain quite a lot as a fraudster...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

are you saying you didn't like her playing when at her peak?  why then, do others praise her so in earlier critiques.  honestly, i don't know much about her and obviously the case.  but, it just makes one suspicious of the music industry and world.  if they didn't recognize this earlier - they were really stupid.  they, being von bahr (sp?) and purchasers of her cd's.  you mean nobody said - 'hey, that's me playing!'  10,000 cd's should do the trick.

the only thing is, alistair, i really do respect what you have to say because you are closer to the people and music world than i am.  and, if there are techniques in recording that make it possible to make slight changes and pass them off as one's own recording - then it is really wrong!  and i agree - it shouldn't be treated lightly as though it's ok for someone else to do this.  hmmm.  i just don't like thinking that joyce was fraudulent in her thoughts or actions.  especially for her determination as a pianist to play despite cancer, etc.  it makes one have some compassion for her side of the story (since she can't be here to tell it).  and, of course, to fully hear-out her husband so that the matter is really distinguished as to 'who said what' and 'who did what' and 'who knew what.'  although, i would tend now to take what he says with a grain of salt.  considering that it might have been done out of a misplaced trauma that he knew he was losing her - and really in his heart was mentally on her side alone and noone else's and thought somehow this would help her.  it's hard to know in cases like these because obviously, having a wife with cancer is a very difficult situation.  i hope this whole thing is resolved either way - in a manner that takes into account his age and his obvious longing for her to be remembered in a good way. ?  i know this sounds wierd - but i sort of hope that those who were scammed for a few cd's - if they were - can find it in their hearts to forgive this man.  i don't see a 76 year old quite as threatening as a younger person or middle-aged person.  in fact, i see them - respectfully, as being in those twilight years of which people tend to do irrational things for seemingly good reasons.  much like teenagers just learning to drive and taking a risk here and there thinking that somehow it proves they are quick minded.

[thalbergmad]

appart

Perhaps if it was an English lesson, you would spell better.

I am gonna tell shorty and you will have to do the dishes for a week.

Thal

[ahinton]

Perhaps if it was an English lesson, you would spell better.

I am gonna tell shorty and you will have to do the dishes for a week.

Thal

I deliberately overlooked this, as I just couldn't be bothered to mention it - but now you have done so anyway.

I cannot resist asking you, however, whether you have any particular person's dishes in mind?...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

are you saying you didn't like her playing when at her peak?  why then, do others praise her so in earlier critiques.  honestly, i don't know much about her and obviously the case.  but, it just makes one suspicious of the music industry and world.  if they didn't recognize this earlier - they were really stupid.  they, being von bahr (sp?) and purchasers of her cd's.  you mean nobody said - 'hey, that's me playing!'  10,000 cd's should do the trick.

You are really missing the point. Other than one short broadcast clip from a 1970 recording of her playing the solo part in the Bax Symphonic Variations for piano and orchestra which really is thought to be a genuine JH recording, I have never heard her play; this is not enough by which to assess her and, like most other people, I am in no position to say what kind of pianist she ever was. Not everyone did praise her early on, anyway - and so far there have not been all that many critiques unearthed to get any idea of what contemporaneous critical assessment of he work was like. So, if you can now understand that there was precious little early Hatto legacy to go by and the "story" and the fake CDs are all a relatively recent concoction, you might start to get what's been going on here.

the only thing is, alistair, i really do respect what you have to say because you are closer to the people and music world than i am.

Thanks, Susan, but, believe me, I don't know the whole story here by any means; for starters, I've not even figured out WB-C's real motive, which is hardly an insignificant factor...

and, if there are techniques in recording that make it possible to make slight changes and pass them off as one's own recording - then it is really wrong!  and i agree - it shouldn't be treated lightly as though it's ok for someone else to do this.

Yes, it is relatively easy, yet, it is wrong and no, no one really believes that it's OK to do this except perhaps WB-C and anyone else that actually does it.

hmmm.  i just don't like thinking that joyce was fraudulent in her thoughts or actions.

Nor do I and nor, I imagine, does anyone else - not that this fact should blinker any of us to the truth if that does tuirn out to be that she was indeed so.

especially for her determination as a pianist to play despite cancer, etc.  it makes one have some compassion for her side of the story (since she can't be here to tell it).  and, of course, to fully hear-out her husband so that the matter is really distinguished as to 'who said what' and 'who did what' and 'who knew what.'

He did remark to Jeremy Nicholas that the dead cannot speak; the full significance of this statement has become far more apparent in recent weeks. We don't know the full facts about her cancer, either. I'm not being unsympathetic and, again, I do not know the facts in any case, but the idea that someone could survive ovarian cancer for almost four decades is stretching credibility to - or perhaps beyond - the limits. For what it's worth, I don't believe a word of what WB-C is now trying to say about deciding to patch up little fragments from others' recordings to cover up the sounds of pain from JH while recording and then realising that he could do longer and longer patches; indeed, that would almost be comical were it not for the seriousness of the circumstances if JH really was in that state of health. WB-C doesn't want to say to much more, pretty obviously. I just hope that he can be brought to court and made to own up to the whole thing - and soon, for the prospect of it all dragging on indefinitely as the ill-informed speculations pile up and the entrenchments spread is a decidedly unsavoury one.

although, i would tend now to take what he says with a grain of salt.

I'd take it with a whole pillar of salt; you know what one of those is, Susan, don't you?!

considering that it might have been done out of a misplaced trauma that he knew he was losing her - and really in his heart was mentally on her side alone and noone else's and thought somehow this would help her.

The principal problems wth this are (a) that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would surely realise that, if found out, the damage done to her would far outweigh what would happen had he done nothing, (b) that it could not have done anything for her if, as he claims, she knew nothing of what he was doing in her name and (c) that he continued to release more and more CDs after her death, by which time he could not do anything for her in any way at all.

it's hard to know in cases like these because obviously, having a wife with cancer is a very difficult situation.

Of course it is - but then how many of the millions of men who have wives with cancer would even dream of resorting to a fatuous, risky and absurd scam as this?

i hope this whole thing is resolved either way - in a manner that takes into account his age

The only way in which his age plays a part here is that there's no fraudster like an old and long-experienced fraudster - as indeed the continued success of this particular fraudulent exercise (until this month) surely demonstrates to perfection.

and his obvious longing for her to be remembered in a good way. ?

That is very much less than obvious from where I'm sitting...

i know this sounds wierd - but i sort of hope that those who were scammed for a few cd's - if they were - can find it in their hearts to forgive this man.  i don't see a 76 year old quite as threatening as a younger person or middle-aged person.  in fact, i see them - respectfully, as being in those twilight years of which people tend to do irrational things for seemingly good reasons.  much like teenagers just learning to drive and taking a risk here and there thinking that somehow it proves they are quick minded.

Then you are playing the innocent, Susan. However preposterous this scam was, it worked for years and the 60+-year-old who dreamt it up and kept it going until his latter 70s has a past record of such things (dodgy import deals and tax evasion) stretching back 40 years and he knew what he was up to most of the time. I doubt that many who bought the CDs will feel that bad about it, although there have been a few complaints. If you really think that this is in any sense an example of someone who deserves some kind of sympathy just by virtue of being in what you call his "twilight years", then I'd be very wary of going for a walk with you in the twilight.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

i was going to pm you and ask if we could change subjects - but - as it appears - it gets more complicated by the minute.  dodgy import deals?  tax evasion?  where will this end?  i don't even know these people!  i tend to stand up for pianists wherever they are - especially if female.  that's my take.  but, then, if she did know about it - then i feel sad for her in any case.

 i tend to think - 'three stones to the pavement and hope the embarrassment was enough.'  although i wouldn't say this to a murderer.  so i suppose - you being a composer and all - don't think too highly of this.

ps i thought i heard myself on the radio the other day!  it was a mozart sonata.  i was going - 'hey, that sounds like one of my recordings.' 

[ahinton]

i was going to pm you and ask if we could change subjects

You don;t have to do that - if you want to change the emphases here, then just do it! The thread is not, after all, about Joyce Hatto and there's another thread on that subject already in any case.

- but - as it appears - it gets more complicated by the minute.

I would be rather more inclined to suggest that more little factoids may get revealed by the minute.

dodgy import deals?  tax evasion?  where will this end?  i don't even know these people!

I imagine that you should consider yourself fortunate!

i tend to stand up for pianists wherever they are - especially if female.

Why the latter "especially"? Isn't what mattes the question of how good the pianist is rather than what sex he/hse may be?

but, then, if she did know about it - then i feel sad for her in any case.

It would indeed be a sad fact if it turns out that she was complicit in this scam.

i tend to think - 'three stones to the pavement and hope the embarrassment was enough.'  although i wouldn't say this to a murderer.  so i suppose - you being a composer and all - don't think too highly of this.

I'm trying to develop this picture in my mind as to the precise differences in the ways in which you would react to a murdered and those in which you'd react to a composer; hmm, maybe a change of subject is indeed called for!...

ps i thought i heard myself on the radio the other day!  it was a mozart sonata.  i was going - 'hey, that sounds like one of my recordings.' 

Well, that's never happened to me - nor is it likely to...

Best,

Alistair

[ail]

Hi,

I read the thread in full and I have to say Alistair's comments pleased me very much for the cool, rational mind that they reveal. His fundamental mistrust of what we know is actually something that pleases me very much, as I professionally do research in cryptography and related areas, so I have learnt to mistrust anything I can not double check. And let me point here small fact: from what I've read, the confession letter could be as false as the CDs and, possibly, letters and interviews. There is only one person who produced it, allegedly coming from WBC by private communication.

Of course, WBC could say that he never wrote such a letter and that von Bahr had himself faked it.
Unfortunately, in this world, you can never be too sure of anything. Not that I think WBC is innocent, quite on the contrary, it seems obvious to me he is the mastermind behind the forgery. But as claims of authenticity goes, von Bahr has said exactly the same as WBC or any other peson in the matter: 'hey, that guy said this!'.

we're needing digital signatures here, to enforce what is known in the crypto world as 'non-repudiation'.

Alex

[amanfang]

Since I have not really kept up with this saga, I keep reading "WBC" on this thread and thinking "White Blood Count."   Randomly....

[pianistimo]

now - cryptography can be deciphering music sine waves AND other forms of communications such as letters?  in this case - you could also check the handwriting?  i mean, is it or isn't it WBC's signature?  murder cases are often solved by some little idiosyncracy.  the fingerprints on the letter, the type of paper used, the ink used, the computer used.   

[ail]

now - cryptography can be deciphering music sine waves AND other forms of communications such as letters?  in this case - you could also check the handwriting?  i mean, is it or isn't it WBC's signature?  murder cases are often solved by some little idiosyncracy.  the fingerprints on the letter, the type of paper used, the ink used, the computer used.   

:-D

No, Susan, the kind of cryptography where I dabble has nothing to do with that. It is very far from the classical world of murder misteries. It has a lot more to do with keeping the internet secure. It is a very vast area, and I've been working in a small field of it, and only on theory.
See, when you make a purchase online, you have to be sure that the information you send, for instance, your credit card number, goes encrypted to the other side so that no one can steal your card. That's where cryptography comes in: and hiding your text is not enough, the whole process of communication has to be mounted in a way that no one can record your messages and send them later for their own use, effectively charging twice or even a large amount of times. So, it's a rather complex field.
One of the constructions in this area is a digital signature, something that attests that you produced a document at a certain date, so you can prove you are the original creator, but also that someone else can use to say 'you did say this, and there's no use in denying it, because I have the proof right here'. This is what we'd need now to be sure that what we hear people said actually corresponds to the truth. Actually, if WBC did send an email to von Bahr and he happens to use PGP or something like, then von Bahr already has such proof :-)

Alex

[pianistimo]

oh.  i see.  i think.  computers are to me what religion is to some other people.  i haven't a clue how they work beyond the basics.  they're just there.  like the atm is a moneytree to my teenagers. 

i can't even clean the drain - although yesterday i was really proud of  myself for getting the coathanger out of the sink drain.  i attempted to clean it out (saving $45.oo having a plumber come) and pushed the end of the hanger too far into the drain.  of course, then i have the end sticking up and twisting around whenever i try to yank it.  finally, i got one of my husband's pliers and just prayed and yanked.  i hope alistair doesn't make a joke out of this.  anyways - it was stuck for a half hour.  when i called the plumber and they said just for coming out to look - 45.oo - i went back into bathroom and told the hanger it was coming out if i had to yank the sink from the floor.  sure enough - strength is the key issue here.  unfortunately it spattered the contents of the drain on the door.  i felt like i had performed open heart surgery on the drain.  but, i wiped everything up and saved the money...so that was good.

[ahinton]

i have the end sticking up and twisting around whenever i try to yank it.  finally, i got one of my husband's pliers and just prayed and yanked.  i hope alistair doesn't make a joke out of this.

And lead us not into temptation - but delivery us from simultaneous prayer and plier yanking. One would surely have to be a Yank to pray while - oh, never mind!

By the way, I didn't make any joke here; nothing that I could have written would have come even close to the joke that you have yourself given us.

anyways - it was stuck for a half hour.  when i called...and they said just for coming...45.oo...i went back into bathroom and told the hanger it was coming...sure enough - strength is the key issue here.  unfortunately it spattered the contents...on the door.  i felt like i had performed open heart surgery...but, i wiped everything up and saved the money...so that was good.

...and you have the utterly inspired temerity to worry about whether I might tell a joke about this?! On a scale of 1 - Pianistimo here I'd be seriously struggling to make 1...

Best,

Alistair