Tchaikovsky "The Seasons" - "October".

[ingagroznaya]

Hello.
Can anyone, please, help me with Measure 15 ( measures 23, 24 are similar )? The question is about first and second beat. What notes should be played with the right hand and what goes to the left? Does left hand play grace note and DGC followed by B? Some cloud came over me and I can not remember. I feel the C should be played with right hand. I have been lately under too much stress, so please be gentle on me.

Thank you.

[ingagroznaya]

I no longer feel the question is so strange. So far I spoke to about 6 teachers. Opinions are divided in two groups. This piece is going to be used for competition. Can anyone give me a proper answer? Forget about right and wrong. What is the proper way to do it?

[rach n bach]

I would play the grace note and thte DG with the left, and the C natural with the right.  Seems to make the most sense to me, just make sure that the C is part of the lh phrase (it is a two-note phrase from C nat to B flat) and not into the RH melody line.

RnB

[ingagroznaya]

Exactly, it  seems to make the most sense to play C with the right hand. But would it be consider proper way of doing it by jury? I don't think so.

I spoke today with one teacher whose opinion I greatly value. She said it should not be a big deal to play a grace note and the whole chord with the left hand. I feel it's absurd.

[rach n bach]

True... could you try to play the grace note with your 5 and catch the chord with a 4-2-1?  Or are you going for a 5 and a chord of 5-3-1?

[pianistimo]

what are they going to do?  crouch over the piano and watch.  i think you and rach n bach are entirely correct.  in fact, i would go so far as to tell the student - hey - play it this way:

rh 1 (quarter on C) 2345 (staccatos to tie) and play rh thumb on Bb TOO at the same time as you play the fourth finger on the upper note.  just distinguish with the fingers the quarter vs the staccato!

this way the lh only has to play the fourth finger when it comes to the A (being that it's already in the vicinity from the previous grace note).

imo, the jury is there to listen if the notes are correctly played.  not which finger is playing them. 

[ingagroznaya]

I tried grace note with 5 and 4,2,1, but sound quality is so much better when C is played with the right hand.
Grace note actually sounds graceful, there is no jerking motion, no gap or obvious transfer. I have been stressing over it all day today, so I can manage to do it pretty well. Unfortunately my student is only 9. His hands are small. He is brilliant, so I am sure he can do whatever I ask him to do, but is it worth it?

I would really like to avoid the stupid controversy about "what is the proper way to do it" and do not let the jury pick on things unrelated to his performance ( because as of today, I feel it is my own performance issues ).

[ingagroznaya]

Pianistimo,
half of the jury is Russian and on top of it, they actually ask for a score which was used by a student.

Maybe I should rephrase my question and ask if anyone has a score with C in the right hand?

[iumonito]

Count me in the left-hand camp.  I think it is much more beautiful.  The appogiatura needs enough time (and the pedal) and the right hand answer can be colored appropriately.  If it was Godowsky you may have to do two colors with the same hand, but this is not it.  Much easier to do two colors with two hands and let the C-Bb line be also in one hand instead of broken across hands (like it would be in Rubinstein's melodie in F minor).

It is kind of like breaking between the hands the begining of Hammerklavier, or spliting the trills in Brahms first concerto: the artistic value of the passage is severely hampered by the comfort of the arrangement.

[ingagroznaya]

Great point, Iumonito.  Somehow importance of CB legato was not convincing enough alone.
So, you are a purist...
Hugely appreciate your answer!

[pianistimo]

increased chances of mistakes there, imo.  but, it depends upon the student, i guess.  for me - even for myself - i can do the same things with both hands.  i can hold the notes with thumb and still give staccato.  who will be caring if the passage is correct?

[ingagroznaya]

Increased chance of mistakes is the whole point. With Tchaikovsky's size hands, I am sure the grace note was a comfortable reach, so appoggiatura does not need "enough" time ( and pedal ). He wrote it for Russian aristocraty to be played while they are bored, specifically during those long Russian winters. My 9 years old student with his quarter hands was not taken into a consideration, bummer.

We were born to suffer, Pianistimo. Snobists in jury would care. This whole issue is a total absurd.

[pianistimo]

thanks for explaining this in more detail, ingagroznya.  i always appreciate your observations and perhaps the jury WILL notice this.  simple person that i am - i just try to make things easy for myself.  i have smaller hands and feel that if i can't play a passage with ease, neither will  my students.  on the other hand, if it is easy for them to do with both hands - a challenge of this sort would be to perform it all with left hand to see if they can indeed find some speed and technique to perform it equally well this other way. 

[ingagroznaya]

"Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky composed "The Seasons" at the request of the editor N.M. Bernard, who had commissioned him to write 12 short piano pieces portraying subjects and activities typical of the 12 months of the year. These were to be published, one per month throughout the year 1876, in the St. Petersburg music magazine Nuvellist. According to Nikolay Kashkin's memoirs, Tchaikovsky found the task simple and insignificant, and instructed his servants to remind him each month of the approaching deadline - whereupon he promptly produced the next installment in the series. Tchaikovsky no doubt welcomed this commission, which supplemented his salary as Professor of Harmony at the Moscow Conservatory and the income he derived from his compositions and his activities as music Critic for Russky Vedemosti.

Tchaikovsky joked to a friend about having to write such pieces ( " I continue to bake musical pancakes. Today the tenth has been tossed" )"


I feel purism opinions in this case are blown out of proportions. Ironically 10th number in the book happened to be ''October". Perhaps if not for deadlines, his other teaching and critiquing responsibilities, his bills, better editing job, C would be in the right hand. We'll never know... I personally think C in the right hand makes much more sense. CB line is another voice, third color.  This argument is pointless. He wrote it for armatures! "Godowsky", "artistic value of the passage", "severely hampered", "comfort of arrangement". Uh, typical snobbery. Left hand camp - can't stand it.

[keyofc]

I have thought that whatever hand is the most comfortable and able to play the best was always the best choice.
However, a jury is there to make a verdict and you never know how many things are on their checklist!
Good luck! 

[radmila]

I agree with Iumonito that because of musical reasons and the coloring of lines you need to play C with the left hand. It will be difficult to make a smooth two note slur on C-Bb if you change the hands or if you play these notes with the thumb of your R. H.
I would not worry about the jump so much. The piece is slow and you can take more time reaching the chord after a grace note especially because that place should be played as an agogic accent and it has to be emphasized.   

[ingagroznaya]

Not necessarily, KeyOfC or is it Off?  State of frustration is a very bizarre state to be in.
I feel as if I was taught it all wrong.
I played it as a kid. I just can not remember...It was like in another life.  I do remember "October" being played by ... violin? by Russian weather channel. I do remember bloody red leaf, coming down on those triplets, precisely. Daily. I find it very painful. YOU?  I can't remember my own name. It sounded so different in Russian... There was no "ы". Do we hear music all the same?

There is no sound in American language to imitate one letter of my own name? No one ever can repeat it. "Just right". Just as I want to hear it. It always close, but it's never the "right sound". I find it agonizing!!!

[pianistimo]

dear ingagroznya, 

as usual, i really enjoy reading your musings and the facts you know about tchaikovsky's 'the seasons.'  laughed about the 'pancake' part.  i'm from the camp - 'if you can make it sound like you played it with the lh - who cares.'  but, perhaps i am not as precise a person as i think i am.  often, mispronouncing names left and right.  i had to ask twice about the principals name at my younger daughter's school.  musoleno.  i thought it was 'moos o la no.'  turns out it's 'muh sa lA no.'  it helps to ask.  even my neighbor across the street who is middle eastern - i have to consciously tell myself her name before i say it.  don't know why some names are hard.  have forgiveness for the stupid people that mispronounce your name and don't hesitate to correct them several times so they will remember.  if you never say anything - they'll continue until doomsday.  which, i might add, may be arriving shortly.  unless i am off by a few hundred years.  but, i don't think so.  in which case- you may only have to bear with your name being wrong for a couple more years. 

[ingagroznaya]

I want to thank you all for getting me out of my cloud, but especially left camp, of course.

There is no reason for CB to be played with different hands. It's all should be played with the left hand as written.

We have more ( new ) unexpected problems with this piece and unless my student is going to grow his finger half an inch in three months - we're screwed big time. New problems, new dilemmas. Protein? Carrots?

Pianistimo, I can not wait for a bird flu, Nile virus... what ever it is, I think it's about time for our society.

[pianistimo]

i hate to say this - but the more i think about it - making life difficult for students is the teacher's job.  insist it being  played with the left hand.  btw, radmilla and others - i do highly respect their comments!  i'm just being a bit silly about my own.  there were often times my teachers told me to do one thing or the other.  i never questioned their judgement until i was into my mid-30's and thinking about some of the things i was expected to do.  although i don't have too many gripes - this could be something your student might hold against you wayyyy later in life.

don't worry.  short or long fingers...a challenge is a challenge.  have to look at this passage again - but the thing is - there are always little tricks one can practice if a passage has to be played with only one hand or the other.  you know, like bach did.  those finger crossings that were very conventional at his time (since he was making up the rules) and now seem unconventional due to conventional scale passages.

ingagroznya, each scare has a potential of it's own, doesn't it.  i mean, if it's going to be a real epidemic or just a few people.  this spinach thing had me going.  i didn't eat spinach (fresh or frozen and especially bagged) for months.  but, i actually ate some the other day.  in fact, i also cooked it for some company, too.  i figured that we all have to go sometime or other.  may as well be spinach that does me in.  wasn't trying to kill the company - but that was all i had.  some spinach and some tortellini.  it turned out really tasty.