Alkan's op39 no4 - Impossible?

[comme_le_vent]

I am studying alkan's symphony for solo piano(1st movement) and while its technically difficult - i am having no real problems playing the notes.
The main problems and difficulties are of a more musical kind - over the 10 or so minutes of this piece, you have to make it sound symphonic - and epic - while also keeping everything smooth and integral.
There must be a complete dynamic control, and a clear 'plan' for playing the piece.
This isnt one of those pieces you can just fire up and blast off with, you have to be restrained - in order to not blow your musical 'load'.
I can make an analogy to sex with this kind of piece - for better sex you have to hold back your feelings and let them build up in a more subtle way, so you can 'come' to a better climax. you have to hold back and dont blow your load just yet, because if you wait a bit - youll blow an even bigger load.
I believe this to be the most advanced problem in piano playing - but i want insights on how to achieve it.
How do you master this kind of piece and playing?

[mosis]

I've never heard of this song at all, but that's one nice analogy you've got there.

[BET23]

i dont understand why you are so crude, but, yeah, its a great piano piece... i love the first mov...

its my fav alkan moment,

i dont quite like the 2 3 4 mov,

and usually listen to the 1st mov of the symphony, concerto and the first 2 of opus 33 everyday,

my fav alkan moments,
pure genius

[bop...boo]

song.........load.......your both crazy

[Daevren]

Another crazy here. I like movement 1 ,3 and 4.

Song? Ahum...

I have no idea how one should approach a piece like this playingwise. I guess you have to remove all technical difficulties so you can approach it pure musically. If you can play the difficuilt parts alot faster than they should be played you can play it so it sounds restrained.

And you have to feel the music, feel and understand every note so you can consider the musical quality of every note you are going to play.

[comme_le_vent]

sorry about the sex analogy, it was the best one i could make.
and i believe it should be a lesser crime than calling this piece a song!  

[comme_le_vent]

this is really a question of retaining the architecture of the piece - in this type of piece the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts, to it all must be interrelated and at every emotional turning point, you must weigh the importance of this moment, and choose the dynamics from this.
bernhard(oh knowledgable one)....do you have tips for this kind of piece?

[bernhard]

Be patient. I am reflecting on it.  

[comme_le_vent]

try reflecting a little quicker.....  

a mirror helps  

[arigatuso]

sorry everyone, but... where can I find Alkans music on CD??? I tried in amazon and CDNOW...nothing. Is there a site with some MP3's?

Thanks,
Alejandro.

[BET23]

amazon has plenty,

search

ALKAN,

r

HAMELIN

you will get opus 33, and both the concerto from opus 39 and the symphony from opus 39 there...

i suggest you start with those 3... (they are on 3 diff cd's)

get hamelin playing them...

[comme_le_vent]

bernhard?

anyone?  

[bernhard]

bernhard?

anyone?  

Don't panic. I am getting there.

[faulty_damper]

"How do you master this kind of piece and playing? "

Since you are concerned with dynamics to make it more epic...

You know that during those intense, during that orgasm, you should play louder and slightly faster...

How do you practice that?  I have no idea.  10 minutes is a long time to completely plan out how you're going to play it.  Maybe practice shorter peices that have the same quality that you're trying to play.  Since you climax at the "golden ratio" at around 7/10ths the way through... (assuming it was composed this way)... then play that louder and slightly faster...

Or just wait...

wait...
wait...
for...
Bernhard...
to...
respond.......

If you can wait that long before, you know..., then you should be able to wait for that climax.  Or just pretend you're having sex and use that as your motivating factor.  You climax - the music climaxes.

[comme_le_vent]

i see what your doing bernhard......
whilst it may be funny for other people, it isnt quite so much to me
you arent stimulating my organ any better by doing this.

[bernhard]

I am studying alkan's symphony for solo piano(1st movement) and while its technically difficult - i am having no real problems playing the notes.
The main problems and difficulties are of a more musical kind - over the 10 or so minutes of this piece, you have to make it sound symphonic - and epic - while also keeping everything smooth and integral.
There must be a complete dynamic control, and a clear 'plan' for playing the piece.
This isnt one of those pieces you can just fire up and blast off with, you have to be restrained - in order to not blow your musical 'load'.
I can make an analogy to sex with this kind of piece - for better sex you have to hold back your feelings and let them build up in a more subtle way, so you can 'come' to a better climax. you have to hold back and dont blow your load just yet, because if you wait a bit - youll blow an even bigger load.
I believe this to be the most advanced problem in piano playing - but i want insights on how to achieve it.
How do you master this kind of piece and playing?

It seems to me that you have already provided an answer when proposing the question.

So make a plan, control the dynamics, make it sound symphonic and keep everything smooth and integral.

You want insights on how to achieve this.

Here is my suggestion (after much reflection): Outline.

This is what you do: get music paper (or a notation software), and rewrite this whole piece but strip it bare to its most essential notes. Get rid of all the chords, all the arpeggios, all the runs (don’t worry, you will put them back on later). You should end up with a melodic thread and a bass line that barely suggests the harmony.

Now start working on this new version (but in parallel, do you technical homework on all that you left out). Your aim here is the big line, not the technical minutiae. Play this skeleton of a piece with all the pathos you believe you must muster. Imprint on it the musical concept you have in mind. It will be very easy since you are not encumbered by masses of notes. Make it swell in time and balance your dynamics accordingly.

Once you become comfortable that you can play this outline in the way that you envision, start playing this outline, but in your mind you hear the complete piece. As you do that you will observe that the simple thinking of the complete piece throw you off course even when playing the outline. You must now keep at it until you can keep the outline going in spite of all that is going on in your mind.

Once you can do that, start putting back in the score all that you took away. But do it by stages. Add the most important chords first. Then perhaps that extra voice. And so on and so forth. At all times you want to keep referring to the original vision you were able to bring forth in the outline. If necessary keep working on the outline in parallel.

Eventually you should be able to play the full score as originally written, and as you do this, do the reverse process. Before you were playing the outline and mentating the full piece. Now as you play the full piece, mentate the outline.

Keep alternating: full piece on piano – outline in the mind / outline on piano, full piece in the mind, until you can blend them both seamlessly.

Now go and practise.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[comme_le_vent]

great advice, i will take heed from your concept of outlining the essential 'skeleton' of the piece, and indicating on the score the parts to bring out more.
and an exact dynamic and structural plan.

for this piece, i want to play it identically to hamelin, because his interpratation is perfect, the only thing i will add is my own spontinaety and individuality.

your advice has been appreciated, and WHEN(not if) i record this work on cd, i will thank you in the liner notes  

[bernhard]

I am looking forward to it!