Etudes on Steroids

[clavicembalisticum]

There are many Etudes from many composers. I am trying to put together a killer program. A unique, killer workout. I do not want people to respond that Chopin's is all you need, this or that in an exclusive manner. I have my ideas regarding the subject but suggestions would be welcomed.

I want to combine different styles as well. For example, within the given set of Chopin's (including the Godowsky writeups), Liszt's, Rachmaninoff's, Scriabin's, Prokofiev's and Stravinsky's, Debussy's Etudes (you may add exotic things that _are_ of use here if you want), what would be your perfect order and set of pieces. We assume that all fingers are trained to the same level and there are no weak points, meaning the performer should not be having issues working everything out (ie it is a do not try this at home warning).

The total time of playing should not exceed 2 1/2 hours (there is no other limit than that), and all of the proposed composers should be equally present. We are to try and combine different styles aside the technique involved.

Thanks.

[rob47]

[elevateme_returns]

why would you do this?

[clavicembalisticum]

why would you do this?

Most of all I do not want to be locked up within a certain style. Concentrating on the style of one composer vs another is not an option this is why there must be a variety. Etudes in this case are not only for maintaining and enhancing skills, but also for leaping from one soundstyle to another as well.

I am aware of Ligeti's works but i do not want to be Ligeti - only or 1putyourfavouritetechnicalthingiehere!. Just posting something I know, does not constitute a valid reply. So please, if someone has thought over this or wants to talk about it, stick to the formulation of the original problem.

Thanks again.

[rob47]

fo-giv-e-ness prease!

[clavicembalisticum]

Come on, you know what I meant. I am building a serious project here. Sharing points of view may be beneficial. If you have a combination, share!

[mikey6]

Aimard did a program of all etudes that was posted here a while back.  It included I think Chopin - Ligeti and everyone in between.  Try a search for it.

[pianistimo]

my program would be everything (all etudes) in F-minor

chopin etude op 10 #9  Fm
chopin etude opus 2 #2  Fm
liszt grand etude #10  Fminor
liszt concert etude la legg.  F minor
rach etudes tableaux allegro ma non troppo op 33 #1
scriabin etude op 42 #7

encore:  thinking - you did say 'on steroids.'  let's make everyone think this is an encore - but it's really the second half coming up now:

alkan - F min etude
gabriel pierne concert etude op 13 (only if it is in F minor)
saint-saens (hopefully he wrote a left handed one in F minro)
lyadov - liapunov  - both f minor
sorabji - f  minor etude
 
finally true encore:  mac dowell - etude in f minor (if he wrote one) followed by 'air russe' or moment musical for piano in f minor by franz schubert (to clear the air)

[jlh]

I did a program last month where the whole second half was etudes.  The recordings are in the audition room if you want to see what I did.

Basically, it was Chopin, then Rachmaninoff, then Liszt, then Scriabin. 

Josh

[jlh]

OOPS!  duplicate post...

[opus10no2]

alkan - F min etude

This is the funeral march 39/5, hardly his most challenging piece.

I would advise grouping the Etudes by the figuration they are concerned with.

Arpeggio and scalar etudes, then double note studies, octave, etc.

It is more difficult endurance-wise, this way, depending on how fast they are going to be played.

[soliloquy]

2.5 hrs?


Alkan Trois Grandes Etudes Op. 76
Scriabin Etudes Op. 65
Chopin Etudes Op. 25
Bartok Three Etudes Op. 18
Debussy Etudes Book II
Dusapin Etude Nos. 3 and 4
Rachmaninov Etudes Op. 39 No. 1, Op. 39 No. 5, Op. 33 No. 8 (C#-)
Liszt Etudes "Mazeppa", "La Vision", "Chasse-Neige"
Ligeti Etudes "Touchees Bloquees", "Fanfares", "Automne a Varsovie", "Vertige", "La Escalier du Diable"


Encore:
Alkan Etudes Op. 39 Nos. 4-7, "Symphonie pour Piano Suel"




good luck lol

[jre58591]

sorabji - f minor  etude

i didnt know sorabji had an etude that was in f minor.

[clavicembalisticum]

First of all thank you all for contributing so far! One particular answer also hit dead on the current blueprint:

I would advise grouping the Etudes by the figuration they are concerned with.
Arpeggio and scalar etudes, then double note studies, octave, etc.

The deal is to play them as fast as dictated by physical limitations without getting injured of course. Ultimate goal is to gain the quivering quality necessary for flawlessly improving the technique this is why I will focus this entire year only in technical works. I very much liked the way Debussy's etudes are grouped by the composer. All of your points guys and gals are taken and I agree with pretty much everything said.

[virtuosic1]

Ironically, I've played many Etudes while on steroids!       Nothing like a little controlled rage to add extra dynamic flair to the music and make the piano raise the white flag.   

Who else? Fess up. Thal?? 

[thalbergmad]

Who else? Fess up. Thal?? 

Yes, they indeed helped my deadlift but i can't remember any improvement to my etude playing

Thal

[clavicembalisticum]

Has anyone looked into this:

https://digitalcommons.lib.ttu.edu/dissertations/AAI9416658/

Wonder if it is worth the read

[virtuosic1]

Has anyone looked into this:

https://digitalcommons.lib.ttu.edu/dissertations/AAI9416658/

Wonder if it is worth the read

The abstract looks promising. My inclination is that it's a worthwhile read. I would have started on it already but my computer is fubar. I've got the reader but my PC won't let me open PDF or Zip files. I have to use a friend's PC to download and print PDFs., even to upload music files to the net also, because my PC won't read from the USB input. Definitely time for a new computer.

[nicco]

The abstract looks promising. My inclination is that it's a worthwhile read. I would have started on it already but my computer is fubar. I've got the reader but my PC won't let me open PDF or Zip files. I have to use a friend's PC to download and print PDFs., even to upload music files to the net also, because my PC won't read from the USB input. Definitely time for a new computer.

I could only see a 24 page preview, but it looked promising indeed. However paying $37 for it..not gonna happen.

[pianistimo]

where is stephen paul weber now?  wonder if those etudes are published.  the date was pretty early for that article (1993).  it looks promising so far.  we'll know when we look at those etudes. 

i think it's more challenging -rather than grouping by techical difficulty -to have no plan at all.  to make difficult shifts from one type of figuration and technical challenge to a random other.  the risk of hurting yourself goes way up (not to mention making mistakes).  thus needing 'steroids.'  but, the thing is - chocolate flavored 'whey' powder - which you can get at target for a whopping huge jar at $9.00 or something sounds less expensive.  at least that is what my son was told last night from the weight trainer at the YMCA. 

[virtuosic1]

where is stephen paul weber now?  wonder if those etudes are published.  the date was pretty early for that article (1993).  it looks promising so far.  we'll know when we look at those etudes. 

i think it's more challenging -rather than grouping by techical difficulty -to have no plan at all.  to make difficult shifts from one type of figuration and technical challenge to a random other.  the risk of hurting yourself goes way up (not to mention making mistakes).  thus needing 'steroids.'  but, the thing is - chocolate flavored 'whey' powder - which you can get at target for a whopping huge jar at $9.00 or something sounds less expensive.  at least that is what my son was told last night from the weight trainer at the YMCA. 

You can ingest the entire contents of a nutrition store, including all of their "pre-cursor"/proto "Steroids", all the creatine and vanadyl, and whatever will be hot as the "new rage in muscle building nutritional science next week. All of it combined won't equal the effect of a diet rich in both carbs and protein, and just one measly 200 mg. intramuscular dosage of Testosterone Cypionate or Enanthate per week as a minimal dosage. Personally, I think an array of Testosterone suspension (the Capt. America Super Soldier Serum), D-bol, Anadrol, and insulin (with every high carb meal) are the way to go.

Oddly enough, many beginning bodybuilders interested in accruing mass errorneously gouge themselves on protein. Muscles run on carbs, and for two hours following an intense workout, the muscles soak up carbs like sponges to refuel, not protein (which aids in the repair of muscle tissue).

[pianistimo]

very interesting.  my son eats basically anything and everything - so i think he's covered.  but, making him pasta would be good? 

now for the calcium side - protein milkshakes?  i keep telling him - drop the sugar.  but, he puts sugar in everything.  sugar is very bad for bodybuilding,right?  i mean you might need a little - from the natural exchange from carbs to fuel, right?  but, fruits and berries are already sweet.  bananas seem to keep people's potassium levels right, too. 

why would one want testosterone shots.  yikes.  they sound like those shots women have to have to the spine in childbirth.  i can just see a testosterone shot now.  where do they stick it?  in your leg.  and how do you know that the body will actually use the testosterone properly and you don't just get pumped full of the shot - causing swelling everywhere you are shot.

now, i know nothing about body building - but i think personally, so far, that it's what you are born with.  if you have a chipmunk body - there's not much you can do but take tap dancing.   pumping yourself full of testosterone might cause you to need anger management classes.

ps not to brag - but my son is wayy taller than me and opens jar lids at the drop of a hat.  he lifts gallon water jars with one hand.  and, his sister on his shoulder is simply an addition of an ounce of weight (and she's about 48 lbs - at 5 years old).  he seems to have grasped a concept without being told - of smooth movements to begin a lift.  i mean, he just swings the water bottle up on his shoulder or back and - from there it's just getting it a mile down the road.  i wish he could be paid for his brute strength.  i cannot get his i-pod away from him.

[invictious]

Soliloquy..that programme.....yes, someone WILL need that good luckj.

Pianistimo....someone trying to suicide?

[clavicembalisticum]

2.5 hrs?


Alkan Trois Grandes Etudes Op. 76
Scriabin Etudes Op. 65
Chopin Etudes Op. 25
Bartok Three Etudes Op. 18
Debussy Etudes Book II
Dusapin Etude Nos. 3 and 4
Rachmaninov Etudes Op. 39 No. 1, Op. 39 No. 5, Op. 33 No. 8 (C#-)
Liszt Etudes "Mazeppa", "La Vision", "Chasse-Neige"
Ligeti Etudes "Touchees Bloquees", "Fanfares", "Automne a Varsovie", "Vertige", "La Escalier du Diable"


Encore:
Alkan Etudes Op. 39 Nos. 4-7, "Symphonie pour Piano Suel"




good luck lol

Hmm asides the mazeppa (never got me interested), the dusapin & alkan (39) works and some of the ligeti ones you mention, i am fairly acquainted with the rest of the works. I should look into the missing parts. I am interested in the complete trip here no matter what it takes.

I am not kidding, and if somebody needs luck for doing this, well... it is a do-not-try-this-at home thing...

In addendum I am considering buying the Weber book comparing them all.

[houseofblackleaves]

2.5 hrs?


Alkan Trois Grandes Etudes Op. 76
Scriabin Etudes Op. 65
Chopin Etudes Op. 25
Bartok Three Etudes Op. 18
Debussy Etudes Book II
Dusapin Etude Nos. 3 and 4
Rachmaninov Etudes Op. 39 No. 1, Op. 39 No. 5, Op. 33 No. 8 (C#-)
Liszt Etudes "Mazeppa", "La Vision", "Chasse-Neige"
Ligeti Etudes "Touchees Bloquees", "Fanfares", "Automne a Varsovie", "Vertige", "La Escalier du Diable"


Encore:
Alkan Etudes Op. 39 Nos. 4-7, "Symphonie pour Piano Suel"




good luck lol

There are a few insane etudes in Chopin's op.10 (nos. 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 10)  And where's Liszt's Feux Follets or Rachmaninoff's op.39 no.6?

I agree with the Ligeti, haven't heard the Alkan.

[clavicembalisticum]

Rachmaninoff's op.39 no.6?

This etude was originally part of the first set written in the summer of 1911 at Ivanovka btw, the technique used in the repeated notes, the speed that the overall piece, and the big fat ultra lisztscriabinesquely romantic chords for both hands remind me something that goes with ... "Alla breve".

[opus10no2]

Alkan's op76 is indeed one of the greatest opuses in the entire literature.

Etudes of one hand alone represent a difficulty for that hand which CANNOT be equalled in hands-together pieces.

The difficulties of working hands together are co-ordinational, but once these things are conquered, they don't really have ongoing difficulty.

Working with one hand means it is more exposed, and more intensively demanding on dexterity and endurance.

There should definitely be more right-hand alone etudes composed.

[houseofblackleaves]

This etude was originally part of the first set written in the summer of 1911 at Ivanovka btw, the technique used in the repeated notes, the speed that the overall piece, and the big fat ultra lisztscriabinesquely romantic chords for both hands remind me something that goes with ... "Alla breve".

Yep.  It was supposed to be no.4, but was taken out and put in the second set, so that's why the numbering for the first set is so screwed up...

The edition of the etudes that I have just skip no.4.

Still, 39/6 is one of my favorite Rachmaninoff peices, and the Etudes-Tableaux are probobly my favorite piano works by him.

[clavicembalisticum]

Still, 39/6 is one of my favorite Rachmaninoff peices

Same here.

[thalbergmad]

You can ingest the entire contents of a nutrition store, including all of their "pre-cursor"/proto "Steroids", all the creatine and vanadyl, and whatever will be hot as the "new rage in muscle building nutritional science next week. All of it combined won't equal the effect of a diet rich in both carbs and protein, and just one measly 200 mg. intramuscular dosage of Testosterone Cypionate or Enanthate per week as a minimal dosage. 

That is a great truth, which if became general knowledge would put Holland & Barrett out of business.

Thal

PS it was Dianobol in my day.

[elevateme_returns]

what about liszt paganini etudes

[virtuosic1]

That is a great truth, which if became general knowledge would put Holland & Barrett out of business.

Thal

PS it was Dianobol in my day.

Still is! Thailandian 5 mg. pinkies are still the most effective orals on the black market, unless you can get genuine 50 mg. Anadrols.

An array of:
Aqueous suspension test
Cypionate/Enanthate or Sustenon/T-400
Pinkies or Anadrol
Humulin-R insulin

+ training like the Devil himself is sitting on your shoulder stabbing you with the pitchfork (ultra heavy duty, a la Jones/Mentzer/Yates) + eating like there's no tomorrow = the better mousetrap.   

Reading everything that Louie Simmons has every written about building power and putting his teaching into practice doesn't hurt either. 

[imbetter]

Same here.

me 3

[thalbergmad]

Mentzer

Ahh, now there is a man.

Proof that you don't need to spend all day in the gym. 45 minutes is sufficient.

Makes me wonder if the same can be said for piano practice. Are all these people spending 4+ hours on the piano every day wasting their time?

As much as i loved Mentzer, Zane was always my favourite.

I wonder if he played the piano.

Thal

[virtuosic1]

Poof. Too much practical info here.

[thalbergmad]

Very interesting, i hope you finish the book.

A couple of years ago i did read a book called the "inner game of music". Can't remember the authors, but one played in an orchestra and the other was a tennis and skiing coach. They claimed some pretty impressive results.

Perhaps pianists can learn much from the way that athletes are trained.

I will not bore you with my pathetic attempts to throw the hammer.

Thal

[clavicembalisticum]

Pianists are athletes and are not trained as such.

This is why Etudes must be on Steroids. Glad somebody puts it in a simple, eloquent phrase