Physical and mental aspects of sight-reading and not looking at the keys

[darla]

Watching a video of Tristano play without being able to look at the keys has me focused on a problem I've had for some time.  I've been trying to improve my ability to not look down at the keys while sight-reading (and while playing in general) and have had some success. However,  I've found I'm dependent on using the black keys to determine where I am.  My questions are:
 
1) Is this a bad habit--if so, should I go "cold-turkey" and try to sense the spatial relationships of the keys without feeling for the contours of keys?

2) Should I always think in terms of intervals?  Here is an example, currently, if there is a scale like passage of sixteenth notes in the right hand, I'll play in terms of intervals, and in the left hand, say there are half notes a fourth or sixth apart, I think in terms of each one independently (not relative to the prior note) because I've probably forgotten where that last note was.

In summary, I'm looking for methodology to become completely familiar with the keyboard without looking down.

Thanks in advance,
D

[pianistimo]

sightreading is basically scanning ahead so you can play continuously without stopping.  but, hardly anyone learns it step-by-step.  sometimes people hit 'walls' and cannot seem to pass through them for various reasons.  some is dexterity and visual/spatial related - and other times it is just a simple practice reason.  they don't practice it much.

take music that you don't know - and that is about one or two levels below where you are at.  the first few days just focus on the first measure.  take in the key signature first and make sure you know if the piece is beginning in the major or minor key (by looking at the chords).  if you cannot tell by the beginning -take a look at the last chord of the piece.  anyways - determine the key.

play a couple of scales (if it helps you) in that key so you familiarize yourself with the notes that are most likely to be used in that piece.  many sightreading mistakes are the result of not thinking of this basic first step (ruling out all the notes that will not be played normally).

after you know what scale - focus on both staves if you can (try to take in the whole and not just treble clef and bass clef).  you may need to start with music that has notes fairly close to each other  in the bass and treble.  this may make sightreading easier as you are probably not just learning sightreading - but also notereading. 

once you can scan and play one or two measures without stopping.  add one more beat at a time each day.  play through these measures and the extra beat (with index card taped covering the rest of the line).  get used to #1 taking in the key sig  #2 mentally thinking of the hand pattern of that scale for both hands  #3 scanning and noting chords and melody line  #4 playing without stopping

the goal isn't necessarily not to look down - it is being able to find your place whether looking or not (in whatever tempo you decide - i'd play slowly) - and play continuously to your 'destination point.'

every day go further and further without stopping.  it will soon become a matter of choosing harder material to challenge yourself when you let go of the idea 'i can't look down.'  look down all you want - just DON't stop.  mark your place mentally - and only briefly look down - so you can look up again (find your place) and keep going without missing a beat.

[virtuosic1]

Watching a video of Tristano play without being able to look at the keys has me focused on a problem I've had for some time.  I've been trying to improve my ability to not look down at the keys while sight-reading (and while playing in general) and have had some success. However,  I've found I'm dependent on using the black keys to determine where I am.  My questions are:
 
1) Is this a bad habit--if so, should I go "cold-turkey" and try to sense the spatial relationships of the keys without feeling for the contours of keys?

2) Should I always think in terms of intervals?  Here is an example, currently, if there is a scale like passage of sixteenth notes in the right hand, I'll play in terms of intervals, and in the left hand, say there are half notes a fourth or sixth apart, I think in terms of each one independently (not relative to the prior note) because I've probably forgotten where that last note was.

In summary, I'm looking for methodology to become completely familiar with the keyboard without looking down.

Thanks in advance,
D

Darla, I spent 10 years studying with Lennie, age 10 to 20. Lennie himself is the one that first started calling me, "oh Virtuosic one" at about age 17. I could have helped you with this better than anyone. Unfortunately, if I try, there will be a certain faction of members that will show up to troll and ridicule each and every one of my posts as is their typical modus operandi. Sorry I must remain mute on this subject. Here is a sound file of my playing one of Lennie's remarkable improvisations based on Melancholy Baby:

https://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

I'm accused by board members of computerizing this. Soon, I will post a correctly uploaded video to youtube of my playing this under the heading Virtuosic1 - Lennie Tristano. I believe there's a file up on there now that didn't load properly.

Take care.

[darla]

Pianistimo,

Thank you for your detailed response--there are some ideas there that I can explore.  I should have noted that in my original post that I'm currently a decent sight-reader (for example I can do Bach Inventions at a modest tempo).

Virtuosic1,
I would love to hear your recommendations.  Maybe you would agree to write your comments if:
1) I delete this thread (can I do that?) if you get negative responses.
or
2) you could kindly email them directly to me.

Thanks,
D

[danny elfboy]

Darla,
It is important you don't confuse sighreading with playing
That's it: not looking at the keys is necessary to sightread, to read ahead all of the time
But this would be a mistake in actual playing.
Keeping your head fixed in front of you and never looking at your hands while you play or have performance just provide further far-fetched limits to your playing and expression

Looking at your hands is vital during practicing as you activate a better muscle memory and can check the motions whether they look economical or time/energy wasting
Once you've found the right motions by looking at your hands and ingrained them in your muscles memory, by looking at your hands; you'll better retain these motions in your practice. Practice is not about "practicing" but about "learning the right thing first" and "keep practicing the right thing later"

Before you can read ahead of what you're playing you must train your kinestethic tactile sense. Otherwise if you try to read ahead while still looking at your hands when you raise your head up to read the sheet again after having glimpsed at your hands you'll get lost in the sheet and will miss your position on the keyboard in turn

There are two important things to say about how sightreading works

First of all finding intervals quickly without looking your hands requires a kinesthetic sense which is the ability to sense the position, location and orientation of your body
Kinethesis is activated by touch mostly
So first of all you must find a way not to play with the tip of the fingers but with the fleshy part of the last phalange.
This require you don't play with an high wrist or with an excessively high position
Close your eyes and try to detect the black keys group and then the note before and after each black keys group. Work on your kinethetic sense.
Covering your hand isn't going to help with this.
Just close your eyes and touch the keys ... do this everyday till you can find whatever you want in the keyobard by your kinestethic sense

The second important aspect of how sight-reading work is that you're not playing what you're looking but you're playing what you've just looked. You reading must always be ahead of your playing. You should soak up information about notes, fingering and rhythm as quickly as possible so you should always read ahead. This requires you never stop to correct mistake. Just keep going until you become better at soaking up visual information from the sheet in the least amount of time.
But this phase won't work until you've worked sometime on your kinestethic and blind touch at the keyboard

It's also important to remember that your eyes can't read both the staves
Althought the movement is so fast we can't detect it the eyes actually read a sheet from the bottom to the top. So if you consciously try to start reading from the right hand part you'll not become good in sight reading. Always stare at the bass as you become an be concious that although very fast the movement your eyes make is down-up, down-up, down-up ...

Finally the best way to read music and move from note to note is to think in term of intervals rather than individual notes, it's faster and more immediate since it is also implied in all the music your perform

[alwaystheangel]

Im sorry, virtuosic, but I'm more sorry to Darla if this turns into a flame war on this thread.

However, virtuosic, first of all, if you are so grand, and no one of any callibre would post on here and obviously, you are so great, why are you on here?

This is a fairly casual forum, some here are very, very knowledgeable, such as bernhard, among others. 

The problem I have, is with 142 posts to your name, do you really have any right to speak like that to any of the people here?  You seem very defensive of people insulting you on this forum, have you perhaps considered that it is due to your extreme arrogance?

[darla]

Danny,
Thank you for the great insights.  What you have written makes sense to my current situation.  I have spent a lot of time getting what you call a  kinestethic sense of the keyboard.  My concern is that I'm using the black keys too much as crutch.  For example, say my right thumb is on E and the next note is up to an A, now what I do is quickly feel for the G sharp and A sharp keys to guide me to the A.  Don't good sight readers just know what a fourth (or fifth, sixth, etc) feels like and therefore don't have to use the black keys?  If so, should I practice this skill by forcing myself to not use the black keys (unless it is a large jump, maybe) so that I can develop this sense to a higher level?

Thanks again,
D

[danny elfboy]

Danny,
Thank you for the great insights.  What you have written makes sense to my current situation.  I have spent a lot of time getting what you call a  kinestethic sense of the keyboard.  My concern is that I'm using the black keys too much as crutch.  For example, say my right thumb is on E and the next note is up to an A, now what I do is quickly feel for the G sharp and A sharp keys to guide me to the A.  Don't good sight readers just know what a fourth (or fifth, sixth, etc) feels like and therefore don't have to use the black keys?  If so, should I practice this skill by forcing myself to not use the black keys (unless it is a large jump, maybe) so that I can develop this sense to a higher level?

Thanks again,
D

Don't be afraid of relying on black keys
The black keys are a critical aspect of kinestethic at the keyboard and recognizing the notes. In fact without the black keys you wouldn't be able to tell a C from a G even by looking. So our only point of reference to determine note position are black keys
It's pretty natural and instinctive that you relied on them

My suggestion is to keep using the black keys as a reference
You want a C? You feel for the 2 black notes group and the note below the group
You want a B? You feel for the 3 black notes group and the note above the group

Keep practicing and it will become faster and automatic
In the meanwhile practice "intervals alone"
Sit always at the same place and for a week of less practice 3rd jumps
Then when you're good enough with this (without looking) practice 4th jumps
Then again when you've mastered thei practice 5th jumps ...
... an so on till you can reach octaves easily without looking

In the meanwhile practice chords (major, minor, 7th, augmented and diminished) without looking too 

[lostinidlewonder]

Practice your scales. Before you begin sight reading any piece of music you must take note of the key signature. Ensure you play a C major scale and add the accidentals as the key signature commands. Then play all different kind of patterns on this structure asking playing naturals now and again and observing that sound effect. Play intervals, chords, arpeggios, chord/melodies etc on this scale form. If we understand the crevices (white notes between the blacks, or groups of white notes) and hills (Black notes between the whites  or groups of blacks) and can demonstrate the overall feeling of these structures before we attempt to play the piece, then sight reading becomes easier and we don't have to look at our hands as much. Basically the more scales you do automatically by memory the better at sightreading you become. If you play say... Bb major harmonic scale can you quickly move into an F minor scale without sighting your hands?

Also undestanding the basic way music is written, it can either be Chordal (where both hands play chords), chord/melody (one hand takes chords while the other a melody, this also can extend to one hand playing arpeggios for instance and the other the melody) and scalar (where one hand or both play strings of notes where groups of notes groups of notes can be observed as one hand position). Most sightreaders fail when combinations of these are being used at once.

Developing ways to read multiple notes at once instead of increasing the speed of reading individual notes is important. How does one tackle playing chords is particularly important, always work out the outer bounds of a chord first then take care of the centre. This is also true for scale forms as well but instead we find the bounds of multiple cluster positions. When sight reading it is essential that we always know where the minimum and maximum points are, i.e: the lowest and highest note of each hand position. (i.e: groups of notes which we may play without moving the hand)

[theodore]

This post was most helpful in citing the many aspects of piano sight reading.

However is there any pianist who has explored the aspect of playing a right hand melody while at the same time having to accompany this melody with a widely spaced bass note and chords (such as is found in many waltzes and ragtime styles)?

The left hand needs to move back and forth a great distance and be accurate at the same time. How can a pianist do this spatial movement? Does the left hand horizontally glide to the bass note or does it feel its way by a skimming of the black keys?

Any help would be appreciated.

Ted