holding a key down after playing it

[koichi]

so sorry that this is about arm weight again, but i can't seem to find any posts related to what i want to ask....

i've been watching freeing the caged bird video and learn a lot on arm weight and free fall. but after the free fall, or after a key is pressed down, how much effort/weight do you have to use to hold the key down?

if we are supposed to relax immediately after the finger lands on the key, does it mean i rest the weight of my arms on the key? or am i suppose to support the arm and hands with my forearm and should not let the weight of the entire arm be pressed onto the key?

i'm rather confuse with how much effort and weight to use to hold down the note before releasing it. 

[counterpoint]

This is a very good question!

I believed for a long time in this "arm weight" (gravitation) theory, and it made my playing very tiresome, because if your arm is supposed to be heavy, you have to move this mass all the time. Now I like much more the model of slow or fast keystrokes. You don't need more power or more gravity to play a louder tone - you only have to strike the key faster. The arm can feel very light at the same time, if the movement of the hand and/or the fingers is fast enough.

I'm pretty sure, that this thread will raise an excited discussion... 

[koichi]

so according to what you say, the speed which the key is strike affects the volume, i also agree with this. but if we only focus on fast/slow keystrokes without considering the arm weight that is to be used, won't the tone suffer?

and what is the definition of having a light arm? how light should it be? any methods to let myself discover the "correct" amount of arm weight to apply or is it simply that the arm weight one uses depends on the type of music played?

that seems like lots of questions.....

[counterpoint]

so according to what you say, the speed which the key is strike affects the volume, i also agree with this. but if we only focus on fast/slow keystrokes without considering the arm weight that is to be used, won't the tone suffer?

How will the tone suffer? There are only two things you can control by striking a key: the speed of the strike and the point in time you strike it.

and what is the definition of having a light arm? how light should it be? any methods to let myself discover the "correct" amount of arm weight to apply or is it simply that the arm weight one uses depends on the type of music played?

The "weight of the arm" is only the illusion of weight, because the arm has always the same weight 

If you play with "heavy" or "light" arm depends only of how you think the music should sound. There are sometimes markings like "grave" or "leggiero" in the score, sometimes the title of the piece suggests a heavier or lighter sound, then you wouldn't play a passage in pianissimo with heavy arms (normally), but you can play a fff passage with light arms perfectly well if it's in moderate tempo.

[danny elfboy]

if we are supposed to relax immediately after the finger lands on the key, does it mean i rest the weight of my arms on the key? or am i suppose to support the arm and hands with my forearm and should not let the weight of the entire arm be pressed onto the key?

i'm rather confuse with how much effort and weight to use to hold down the note before releasing it. 

You should use no effort at all.
Remember that after a note has been played any muscular contraction from now on is just wasted energy. You need relaxation for mobility and very fast and short contraction for hitting the key.

Which kind of answer your question.
When you're holding a key down are you hitting it?
No ... then you don't need any contraction.

Try it youself.
Land on a key.
Contract quickly just as your fingertip hit the key.
The key will go down.
Now immediately release any contraction and tension and keep your arm as relaxed as possible. You won't see the key going up just because you've released all contract.

For that to happen it would mean that the recoil of the key action exerts a force that is bigger than the weight of your relaxed arm, and this is just impossible since the force exerted by the key recoil is less than 0.1 ounces.

You can try another way too.
Just place your finger on the key surface.
Push it down with the other hand till the note is depressed all the way down.
Now in this position keep relaxed the arm, hand and every the finger to the point that it feels are light as a feather ... to the point that you have no more control on it and anyone could take your arm and move it in whatever direction.

Look at the depressed key with attention.
It will just lift a little from the keybed but it will remain depressed and the only way to make it go up all the way again is just removing your finger.

Try all these "experiments" many time and you'll just "feel" the kind of contraction/tension you need to keep the key down. You need none.

Try to do this on a digital scales too.
Let the weight of your relaxed arm allow the finger to fall on the scales and contract quickly the moment the finger hit the scales. Look at the scales says.
Now release as much as possible. Keep focusing on the arm and the muscles, release any contraction and any tension. Focus on the arm and focus on making it as light as possible. At one point you won't feel your arm anymore since it is completely relaxed and resting. If you look at the scales the weight will be greatly decreased but still it will be detecting weight. That weight is more than enough to keep a key depressed.

[danny elfboy]

The "weight of the arm" is only the illusion of weight, because the arm has always the same weight 

It's not a complete "illusion"
Try it on a scales.
Put your whole relaxed arm on it and look at what the scales says.
Now without raising the arm just imagine to transfer the weight of the upport body on the arm and contract the muscles. The weight on the scale will change.
The contracted arm increased its gravital pressure increasing the weight exert upon an object, body or surface it is laid on.

[danny elfboy]

This is a very good question!

I believed for a long time in this "arm weight" (gravitation) theory, and it made my playing very tiresome, because if your arm is supposed to be heavy, you have to move this mass all the time.

This is a common misconception.
When people focus on the "weight of the arm" they create this automatic reflex of contraction. The arm is not supposed to feel heavy at all. When they refer to "arm weight" they refer to the fact that there's must be some weight (obviously) that depress the key. This weight should come from the fingers since the fingers don't exert enough weight force to depress a key without strain. The weight should come from the forearm.
Contraction by firming the joint allow the pressure force of the contract forearm to be transferred to the key (our bone are intended to transmit weight, it's the reason why our spine has curves, why we have hips bones and why our foot is shaped like a tripod.

Again, the force required to depress fully a key and produce a sound is so ridicolously small that no one need to have "heavy" weight to produce stronger sound.
The relaxed paw of my cat is more than enough to produce a FFF

Of course counterpoint is right that the loudness of the sound depends on how quickly the hammer moves toward the string. But it is also true that obtaining this (althought on a subconscious level it seems like depending on the speed at which the key is hit) depends on pressure exert on the key by the weight of "something" (hence the weight of the arm perspective) because you can definitely hit a key as fast as possible without producing any sound at all.

[danny elfboy]

so according to what you say, the speed which the key is strike affects the volume, i also agree with this. but if we only focus on fast/slow keystrokes without considering the arm weight that is to be used, won't the tone suffer?

I know what you mean. Where are all the shades of dynamic if it is just piano/forte?
So one may ask. On a scale gradually increasing in volume what are you doing to obtain different shades of piano and forte? Arm weight do has a role in this.
But the point is understanding that "arm weight" is a pressure force created by contraction and joint firming which allow weight to be trasmitted.

Thinking about drawing.
How do you obtain a more darker shade and a lighter shade out of the same color?
Clearly there's no percussive mechanics in drawing so it's not a matter of how fast the tip of the color hits the sheet. It's a matter of pressure and pressure is byproduct of weight. So if you take a blue and you want a very light blue for the windows of your drawing you exerts a "light touch" meaning "less pressure" meaning "less weight"
If you want a dark strong blue for the lake of your drawing you exert a "stronger touch" hence "more pressure" hence "more weight". This is controlled by contraction which is the only way to use joint to transmit weight.

Dynamic in piano playing works in the exactly the same way.

[koichi]

so assuming that you have already pressed down 1 key, and you are holding that key down currently.....

if i move the piano away from the hands, should the hand
1. still FLOAT in the air or
2. FALL to your laps (as your hands are supposed to be relax, they will fall when there is not keyboard)

which is the correct one?

[koichi]

When you're holding a key down are you hitting it?
No ... then you don't need any contraction.

Try to do this on a digital scales too.
Let the weight of your relaxed arm allow the finger to fall on the scales and contract quickly the moment the finger hit the scales. Look at the scales says.
Now release as much as possible. Keep focusing on the arm and the muscles, release any contraction and any tension. Focus on the arm and focus on making it as light as possible. At one point you won't feel your arm anymore since it is completely relaxed and resting. If you look at the scales the weight will be greatly decreased but still it will be detecting weight. That weight is more than enough to keep a key depressed.

i sort of get the feeling already, thanks btw...

but u're saying there's no contraction involved, but in order to cause a decrease in the weight shown on the digital scale, you are in fact not resting your arm or hands on the keyboard at all, instead, there is some form of work done by the muscles to cause the arm to "float" above the keyboard, with the finger itself holding the key down.

so i guess there is SOME contraction or some muscle involved (which i think is either the biceps or triceps)when u're holding a key. there must be some upward force in the arm to ensure the hand and forearms still maintain their "posture"

the forearm is relaxed, but i guess there's some contraction in the upperarm to as to ensure the hand and forearm is held up in a certain manner above the keyboard.

am i getting this right?

[danny elfboy]

so i guess there is SOME contraction or some muscle involved when u're holding a key. there must be some upward force in the arm to ensure it still maintains its "posture"

The upward force is the shape of the forearm itself.
When you set the keystone at the center of an arch it is self supported.
There are hundreds of ancient arches whose only weight bearing structure is that of the arch itself (you move something and everything falls) that are still intact and don't look like they are going to fall any soon.

If you play a note and hold it down and your forearm and wrist are forming an arch even if you remove all kind of contracticle upward force and any kind of muscular work the key will remain down the the wrist will remain up with the forearm floating.

I had a similar discussion already with another person and he disagreed with me until he was able to do it and see for himself that it was like I said. It turned out he was sitting at the wrong height and wrong distance and the upper arm wasn't supporting the forearm up and the wrist was not forming an arch.

Think about losing consciousness. If you do there's no contraction in your muscles.
Now when you loose consciousness your arm keep weighing on its own.
Consider that you need far less force to keep a key down than you need to push it down and pushing it down already require a minimal pressure force.

Try it for yourself.
Play a not with your contracted forearm.
Then as you keep the note down try to REMOVE any kind of muscular involvement and contraction by checking your arm, your wrist, your hand and you fingers.

You goal is to have the key going all the way up again.
You can spend even 10 minutes in such a position trying to remove any little bit of contraction and muscular work in order to have the key going up. It won't go. I will remain depressed no matter what.

[koichi]

so assuming that you have already pressed down 1 key, and you are holding that key down currently.....

if i move the piano away from the hands, should the hand
1. still FLOAT in the air or
2. FALL to your laps (as your hands are supposed to be relax, they will fall when there is not keyboard)

which is the correct one?

so which of the following is correct?

[danny elfboy]

so which of the following is correct?

Reread my thread above ... I edited it because I misunderstood your question.
Replying in a moment

[danny elfboy]

instead, there is some form of work done by the muscles to cause the arm to "float" above the keyboard, with the finger itself holding the key down.

What would cause the forearm to loose the "floating abose the keyboard position"?
Think about it? It can't fall.
From one side it is hold up by the hanging upper arm.
On the other side it is hold up by the wrist which can't collapse because the arched finger alone is keeping it up and it can't collapse because the forearm should collapse first.

Again think about roman arches. What is causing the keystone to "float" above the ground and not collapse on its weight? The shape of the arch itself, the better weigh bearing structure ever.

[danny elfboy]

so which of the following is correct?

If you removed the piano from below your hand your hand would fall on your upperlegs.

As a matter of fact, speaking about the geometrical structure of an arch, if you remove the piano from below your hand you would indeed be removing one of the two pillars of the arch. Of course it would fall down.

[koichi]

thanks... i sort of get what you mean, but wants to check if there's any tension in the upperarm.

i guess there is A LITTLE contraction in the UPPERARM if you try to feel it.

try holding on to the right upperarm with your left hand when you are standing up, with right hand hanging by the side as you would do when u are standing up normally. feel the looseness of the upperarm muscles (biceps, triceps)

then press and hold a key, with the left hand still at the right upperarm, there seems to be some tension in the upperarm, although not any in the forearm. the upperarm does not seem to be as loose as when my right hand was hanging at the side of the body.

that's wat i seem to experience....

[danny elfboy]

try holding on to the right upperarm with your left hand when you are standing up, with right hand hanging by the side as you would do when u are standing up normally. feel the looseness of the upperarm muscles (biceps, triceps)

then press and hold a key, with the left hand still at the right upperarm, there seems to be some tension in the upperarm, although not any in the forearm. the upperarm does not seem to be as loose as when my right hand was hanging at the side of the body.

that's wat i seem to experience....

Two things:
The forearm is sulf supported only as long as you're sitting or in other words only as long as the forearm is at a 90° degree to the upperarm and the upperarm is working like a cable keeping a bridge up, while the finger is working like a ground-support of an arch keeping it up.

Also, if you find the correct position so that you're indeed using your arm as a self-supporting arch (and it needs some experimenting with bench height and distance and I'm my opinion pianists have the bad habit of sitting always too low) and you hit the key (with contraction) and try to remove any contraction while maintain the key down (so there's no force used if not the self-supporting shape of the arch itself ... like it is for the roman arches) and after all of this you still feel contraction ... just take your time a try to remove it all. You can spend even 40 minutes trying to remove any sort of contraction if you want. When you get there you'll noticed the forearm is still self-supported and the key is still down.

[koichi]

Try to do this on a digital scales too.
Let the weight of your relaxed arm allow the finger to fall on the scales and contract quickly the moment the finger hit the scales. Look at the scales says.
Now release as much as possible. Keep focusing on the arm and the muscles, release any contraction and any tension. Focus on the arm and focus on making it as light as possible. At one point you won't feel your arm anymore since it is completely relaxed and resting. If you look at the scales the weight will be greatly decreased but still it will be detecting weight. That weight is more than enough to keep a key depressed.

i think this works very well in explaining wat you are trying to say.

if i do the following:
press down on the scale with 1 finger
then remove "weight" by relaxing the forearm, and the weight shown by the scale decreases, until there is a small amount of value still shown on the scale, as the finger is still situated on the digital scale

if this happens, does it means i'm getting it right?

[danny elfboy]

There is another "experiment" you can do.
Loose any control over your arms.
Sit at the piano at the correct height and let the arm hang free from your conscious control as if you had lost consciousness at the piano.

Then have someone else lift your forearm and position the arched (fingers are naturally arched and curled fingers is a very dangerous mistake) middle finger on a key pressing it down and letting it there.

You will see that although someone else is controlling your body and you have no kind of conscious control over your arm, the arm will self-support itself anyway. The key will remain down, the wrist will remain up an the forearm will remain floating above the keyboard.

Hence there's no kind of contraction on your part since from the beginning you made the effort to be a "puppet" at the hands of someone else and had no control over your "strings".

Talking about puppets another experiment would be to take a wooden puppet forearm
Place the finger side on a keyboard or another surface and tie a string that goes from the ceiling (where you nail the string) to the elbow side of the puppet arm.

What clearly will happen is that the arm will maintain the position and the balance and you'll realize there's no way it can collapse with two supports at the sides.

Look at this pic:



It's a wooden stick so no kind of muscular control or contraction is clearly possible.
Yet there's no way ever that the center of such a structure can collapse.
It will keep floating above the floor no matter what and will maintain that position.

[danny elfboy]

i think this works very well in explaining wat you are trying to say.

if i do the following:
press down on the scale with 1 finger
then remove "weight" by relaxing the forearm, and the weight shown by the scale decreases, until there is a small amount of value still shown on the scale, as the finger is still situated on the digital scale

if this happens, does it means i'm getting it right?

yes the weight you see on the scale is the center of your forearm arch being supported by the pillar, which in this case is the scales while in the piano case it's the piano keyboard.

The other pillar of course is your hanging upperarm which supports the arch from above like the cable of a bridge.

[koichi]

so i guess only the weight of the finger itself is holding the note down???

thanks a lot

[danny elfboy]

Join the chat ... we can talk about this.

[lagin]

I'm terrible for not reading above posts before replying so sorry if it's redundent!  I play with both finger weight and arm weight depending on the type of tone that is required.  It took me 3 years to finally hear the difference, but now that I can it's so noticable in my playing!  (Well, actually, it was a switch in teachers that finally helped me figure it out and a certain brahms waltz that made it "click" for me).  You can't play quite as loudly with arm weight as with finger weight, but close.  You get a less harsh sound, sort of warmer in tone.   I'm not sure how to describe it exactly, but it's a different quality when you drop with a relaxed arm into a key instead of attacking it with finger speed.  The finger attack is a bit harsher, and thus a bit louder, and gives a more clean, crisp tone.  So it really depends what you're going for.  I switch back and forth throughout my pieces depending on what's going on.  Whether I drop from my arm or attack with my finger tip, once the key hits the bottom there's nothing more I can to to change the sound (if you don't count pedalling).  I try to completely relax my arm right up to my shoulder and use just enough weight to keep the key pressed down, but not any more.  That way I can reserve my energy for where it's really needed.  When I think about it, I guess I am holding it with my finger since my arm is being relaxed while I'm holding it.  So I personally, attack with arm or finger and then hold with finger.

[lagin]

I wanted to add that I'm thinking of holding a dotted quarter of half note when I was speaking above.  As far as each individual note goes, in say a run, then it would depend on my attack.  For example I have a run where I go finger finger finger finger finger finger arm arm arm more arm more arm most arm.  When I get near the top, I'm transferring my arm weight from key to key.  This is almost impossible to explain without physically showing you.  It's like I'm "hanging" more and more off the "cliff" aka keys as I go up.  That's the feeling, not necessarly the exact picture of what I do because literally hanging off the keys would be terrible posture for the hand and looks ackward too!

[maul]

You guys think too much about this sh*t. Let it be natural. I started getting overly caught up in all this BS about two years ago and my playing went to sh*t. I stopped thinking and let it flow naturally and my playing improved drastically. Maybe I'm just special.

[danny elfboy]

You guys think too much about this sh*t. Let it be natural. I started getting overly caught up in all this BS about two years ago and my playing went to sh*t.

It's called "paralysis by overanalysys"
The solution is never to stop doing something as you analyze it and find for better solutions or answer but keep doing it and improving.

[maul]

Obviously, but do it naturally. Don't start drawing diagrams and talking a bunch of BS like a majority of the people in this thread. Maybe you have to though if you just... don't... have any talent. I don't know. I don't care. I'm out. Late.

[danny elfboy]

Obviously, but do it naturally. Don't start drawing diagrams and talking a bunch of BS like a majority of the people in this thread. Maybe you have to though if you just... don't... have any talent. I don't know. I don't care. I'm out. Late.

That's the point.
Doing it naturally.
What you don't seem to understand is that all problems (especially those of coordination, injury and pain) come from "not doing it naturally" and all the instruction, theories, analysis are about "getting back to do it naturally".
You should read about Alexander Technique.
The biggest problem is that when we do something we don't do it naturally but according to habits and body uses we have learned from our culture.
I'd like to see you playing, some people just can maintain a natural coordination, balance and muscle use ... but mostly can't and need to do some thinking to get back to the natural way to do it. Maybe you don't it as naturally as you believe you do.