Piano Forum

Poll

how bad is it?

It's a crime.
3 (25%)
It's ok, as long as it still sounds good.
9 (75%)

Total Members Voted: 12



Rhapsody in Blue – A Piece of American History at 100!
The centennial celebration of George Gershwin’s Rhapsody in Blue has taken place with a bang and noise around the world. The renowned work of American classical music has become synonymous with the jazz age in America over the past century. Piano Street provides a quick overview of the acclaimed composition, including recommended performances and additional resources for reading and listening from global media outlets and radio. Read more >>

Topic: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam  (Read 2937 times)

Offline opus10no2

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2157
Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
on: April 07, 2007, 12:14:37 PM


PLEASE remember when performing to check everywhere around you for camera lenses!

Let Grante be the MARTyr for this cause, and let this crime never be commited again!
Da SDC Piano Forum :
https://www.dasdc.net/

Offline mephisto

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1645
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #1 on: April 07, 2007, 12:31:56 PM
Are all of the thirds supposed to be played by the left hand?

Offline opus10no2

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2157
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #2 on: April 07, 2007, 01:01:08 PM
Pretty much, yes.

It defeats the point of the etude.
Da SDC Piano Forum :
https://www.dasdc.net/

Offline kriskicksass

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #3 on: April 07, 2007, 01:41:11 PM
When it comes to etudes, I believe that your purpose in playing the etude should determine whether or not you can "cheat." If you're playing the etude because it's beautiful music that you wish you perform, then you should be able to do whatever you want to make yourself most comfortable and most able to express the music in the way you desire. If you're playing the etude for your own personal technical development and not planning on performing it, you should play it with its original difficulties intact, otherwise you're defeating the purpose.

When it comes to non-etude music, my opinions are mixed. I recently bought a DVD of a lecture by Malcolm Bilson in which he argues that composers write configurations that are "dangerous" because it adds to musical content when there's a chance of failure on part of the performer. Generally I think that's true, so "cheating" is still wrong. However, when you come to music that isn't technically difficult but has wide intervals that you cannot take with one hand, like Gershwin's 2nd Prelude - where Gershwin has specifically marked that no intervals be broken or chords be rolled - cheating is fine because it is presenting the music in a manner that is closer to the composer's original intentions.

Offline nicco

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1191
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #4 on: April 07, 2007, 01:49:41 PM
Pretty much, yes.

It defeats the point of the etude.

Oh come on, he plays long passages in thirds with the left hand, wich proves he has control. Im sure if he wanted he could have used wichever hand, but maybe helping with the right in some places gives a bit more secure feeling, and possibly better sound.
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline pies

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1467
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #5 on: April 07, 2007, 04:41:03 PM
Who cares, boring piece

Offline danny elfboy

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1049
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #6 on: April 07, 2007, 05:12:36 PM
I don't want to be mean but just frank: your "ocean etude" is at the same level of cheating comme. It can barely be recognized and no one can say whether you're playing all the notes.
Certainly you've thrown dynamic, expression, colour, tone out of the windows with that.
And you coordination doesn't look good at all, you look strained and use awkward motions.

You're like not the right person to accuse someone else of this kind of cheating

Offline franzliszt2

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 979
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #7 on: April 07, 2007, 06:05:56 PM
hahaha well said danny.

Offline franzliszt2

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 979
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #8 on: April 07, 2007, 06:10:09 PM
hahaha just watched the vid of opus10no2. hahahahahahaha you can't even play the piece at all. You paly it in triplets, the most amaturish mistake of ALL time, it's the sort of mistake a 5 year old monkey would make. Fair enough you may be taking the piss, but to play it in triplets is just funny because it's so bad hahahahahahaha

Offline avetma

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 331
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #9 on: April 07, 2007, 06:19:22 PM
You just don't know how to listen it when it's fast enough! ;D

Offline etudes

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 809
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #10 on: April 07, 2007, 07:03:07 PM
I will bet that he used 2 hands for the LH etudes in studio!  8)  8)  8)
Piano = my life
My life = piano

Offline rob47

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 997
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #11 on: April 07, 2007, 09:12:12 PM
hahaha just watched the vid of opus10no2. hahahahahahaha you can't even play the piece at all. You paly it in triplets, the most amaturish mistake of ALL time, it's the sort of mistake a 5 year old monkey would make. Fair enough you may be taking the piss, but to play it in triplets is just funny because it's so bad hahahahahahaha

What is the point of this? For someone who goes to a conservatory and has so much to offer you laugh at and put down a performance of someone who has been playing for a tiny fraction of the time you have. Instead of offering this enthusiastic amateur advice (maybe on how to correct his "amateurish mistake" of playing in triplets) you just discourage him.  Give good advice instead next time.

Gavrilov > You
"Phenomenon 1 is me"
-Alexis Weissenberg

Offline mephisto

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1645
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #12 on: April 07, 2007, 09:39:44 PM
Tre rob!

He had only played for a year when that was recorded, and it was kind of a joke too. Based on his improvisations he is a talented man.

Offline virtuosic1

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #13 on: April 07, 2007, 10:11:10 PM
Are all of the thirds supposed to be played by the left hand?

As an interesting side note, a number of years ago, while his long time pianist busy recording his own solo project, I filled in as Rahsaan Roland Kirk's pianist for several concerts. Although Roland's style was far closer to John Coltrane and Sonny Rollins than Charlie Parker, Kirk knew many Parker solos and could play them fluently. One day, at a rehersal, he heard me playing "Donna Lee" and when he finished assembling one of his horns, joined me mid-stream. We played on it for awhile and then he started to pick up the tempo, faster and faster. He decided that he wanted to perform Donna Lee that evening and asked me how fast I could play it (the head and all the solos from the most famous recorded version we both happened to know). I told him, "as fast as you'd like to take it".

He started to play it at "Supersax"-like tempo (the 5-piece sax section that blazes all the Parker heads and solos). I couldn't keep up, the problem being that I would have needed a 10 fingered hand to play at the piano, what is possible at the sax, all 5 fingers of BOTH hands more or less FIXED spatially at the keys of the sax. The solo would have required too much lateral motion from one hand on the piano to make it feasible at the tempo Kirk wanted to play it. So I told him to give me about an hour with it, and we'll meet up at his room later on and run it down.

I worked the music out at the piano so that literally, I was using a 10-fingered "hand", same as a sax player does, both hands sharing the duty of playing the line as one unit, sometimes the hands positioned side by side, sometimes hands crossing over (like on a 15 note ascending run), sometimes even one hand offset over the other. Once I worked out the 2 hand fingering, I was ready to duplicate the line and match Kirk's sax line perfectly when we got together later in the day, phrasing intact as well.

We performed it that night as a duet and it smoked.

Sometimes you must resort to unconventionality. Although playable on the sax, it was unplayable at quarter = 230+ on the piano. The solution was a "10-fingered" hand in this case.

Offline Mozartian

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 697
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #14 on: April 07, 2007, 10:23:24 PM
Yeah, psht, cheating- if you get the results you want, hey! Can't diss it.

I mean, I was working with Martha Argerich on a recording of the Chopin etudes recently- we decided that the best way to handle the octaves etude would be for me to play the top notes and her to handle the rest. Really came out well (DC plans to release the CD later this year). It's kinda sad for me though, because obviously I don't get any credit for helping her out, and I did work really hard to match her tone.  :(

As my good friend Vlady A always says- "play.. the way it should sound.. not the way it should look.. and etudes are stupid anyway".

[lau] 10:01 pm: like in 10/4 i think those little slurs everywhere are pointless for the music, but I understand if it was for improving technique

Offline danny elfboy

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1049
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #15 on: April 07, 2007, 10:47:44 PM
Yeah, psht, cheating- if you get the results you want, hey! Can't diss it.

I mean, I was working with Martha Argerich on a recording of the Chopin etudes recently- we decided that the best way to handle the octaves etude would be for me to play the top notes and her to handle the rest. Really came out well (DC plans to release the CD later this year). It's kinda sad for me though, because obviously I don't get any credit for helping her out, and I did work really hard to match her tone.  :(

As my good friend Vlady A always says- "play.. the way it should sound.. not the way it should look.. and etudes are stupid anyway".

but ... ROTFL !!!!!

Offline franzliszt2

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 979
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #16 on: April 07, 2007, 10:54:14 PM
hahahaha come on, read his posts, you'd think he was a technical God the way he talks, but come on, look at what he says! All this mechanique rubbish, you can see he has none, becasue piano playing is not about that. Fingers don't have strengthm the hand does, and that only has a little. Look at how many times he mentions the arm. The arm is the thing that plays the piano, the fingers are just the slaves.

As for the triplets, just count! 1234 and all will be fine. Accent the melody, pedal with the harmony, and shape the melody, Bob's your uncle, and you have a decent opus25no12. Play it as fast as you desire, just keep the music.

Offline opus10no2

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2157
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #17 on: April 08, 2007, 12:08:11 AM
I don't want to be mean but just frank: your "ocean etude" is at the same level of cheating comme. It can barely be recognized and no one can say whether you're playing all the notes.
Certainly you've thrown dynamic, expression, colour, tone out of the windows with that.
And you coordination doesn't look good at all, you look strained and use awkward motions.

You're like not the right person to accuse someone else of this kind of cheating

That was hardly a serious attempt, it was a CG attempt.

Plus, it doesn't excuse what Grante is doing here in a serious LIVE performance.

Thanks rob and mpeh, you're good guys  ;D
I'll be the firsdt to admit I'm not near the level of Grante, but I can still criticise this.

I sound like a technical 'GOD' because I firmly believe everything I say, and it has put me in good stead thus far.

A beginner can have better knowledge about playing the piano than someone very experienced with flawed ideas.

As for the triplets, just count! 1234 and all will be fine. Accent the melody, pedal with the harmony, and shape the melody, Bob's your uncle, and you have a decent opus25no12. Play it as fast as you desire, just keep the music.

I agree, that's the way to play the etude!
Da SDC Piano Forum :
https://www.dasdc.net/

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #18 on: April 08, 2007, 12:29:43 AM
usually the panel of judges can hear the mistakes of fingering and don't need to look to see.  some places just sound less flowing or clear.  you compare it to how it sounds when using the best fingering (which i think has to do with hand size - sometimes) for yourself.  if the judges had to use the video cam - it would show they couldn't tell the difference.  if they couldn't tell the difference - they shouldn't knock off points.

don't mean to sound smart - but i think opus10no2 is right - because despite how he plays without stopping - it sounds stilted in places.  it doesn't give you the feeling of 'the whole' but -rather - 'sections.'  he starts each section with the same loud dynamic.  he is rather monotonous.  but, such a difficult piece.  so i'm not saying that i could play this without a lot of practice - any better. 

Offline invictious

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #19 on: April 08, 2007, 02:25:17 AM
Hmmm, I suppose it depends here.
I don't know why anyone would do this, but if the sole point was to play the music, then of course it doesn't matter, just so long it sounds good.
If you are really treating it as an etude, then you really should not cheat.


He is not teaching anyone, and we don't know his intents, so I suppose we are not in position to judge. Either way, I don't like this piece, pretty boring.
Bach - Partita No.2
Scriabin - Etude 8/12
Debussy - L'isle Joyeuse
Liszt - Un Sospiro

Goal:
Prokofiev - Toccata

>LISTEN<

Offline opus10no2

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2157
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #20 on: April 08, 2007, 02:30:23 AM
Who cares, boring piece
Either way, I don't like this piece, pretty boring.


I'm surprised, I think the piece is really beautiful, this is just not a particularly great performance.

At the right speed, the 3rds should sound like cascading crystals in the higher registers, one of the most beautiful sounding figurations in piano playing.

I don't know how you can criticise Chopin or Godowsky here, noone else has ever written studies in 3rds that are so technically thorough and musically beautiful.
Da SDC Piano Forum :
https://www.dasdc.net/

Offline invictious

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Grante - EXPOSED cheating caught on cam
Reply #21 on: April 08, 2007, 04:09:03 AM
Well i have only heard two recordings of the piece, and this just happened to be another bland performance.

Either way, i am still waiting for a beautiful performance of this piece.
Bach - Partita No.2
Scriabin - Etude 8/12
Debussy - L'isle Joyeuse
Liszt - Un Sospiro

Goal:
Prokofiev - Toccata

>LISTEN<
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

Logo light pianostreet.com - the website for classical pianists, piano teachers, students and piano music enthusiasts.

Subscribe for unlimited access

Sign up

Follow us

Piano Street Digicert