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Appassionata 3rd movement (Read 5751 times)

Offline phil39

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Appassionata 3rd movement
« on: April 09, 2007, 10:31:17 PM »
what fingering do you use where the F minor semiquavers theme gets underway?
C F Ab C Db C Bb / Ab Bb Ab G F G Ab F

in my edition (Tovey) it mentions 2 possible methods:

1 2 3 4 5 3 2 / 1  (it helps if you have a big hand)

1 2 4 3 4 3 2 / 1  (supposedly for small hands but the leap from Ab (4th) to top C (3rd) seems crazily risky and unreliable to me)

i'm trying out another way which i'm suprised isn't given as an option (in Tovey at least). maybe there's a reason for this, maybe it would tend to fail at full speed. interested to know what option y'all go for...

1 2 3 5 4 3 2 / 1  ... of course this means 4 going over 5 at the top of the arpeggio, but it doesn't seem too bad because your 4th finger is going to a black key (Db)


piano sheet music of Sonata 23 (Appassionata)


Offline nicco

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #1 on: April 10, 2007, 07:27:33 AM »
I use:

124143214321231

It works in every key the theme comes in.
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline stringoverstrung

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #2 on: April 10, 2007, 10:09:32 AM »
in the urtext from Henle Verlag your last option is mentioned:

1235321

It works fine for me at least. :D

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #3 on: April 10, 2007, 02:50:09 PM »
1 2 4 3 4 3 2 / 1  (supposedly for small hands but the leap from Ab (4th) to top C (3rd) seems crazily risky and unreliable to me)

I thought the same, but this fingering puts musical purpose above ease of execution.

It ensures a strong accent on the C, and this is important for the pulse racing vibe of the piece.

Some other fingerings would naturally accent other notes, and ruin the feel of the music.

If you can get an accent with your fingering on the right note, then go with it.
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Offline ramibarniv

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #4 on: April 10, 2007, 09:06:02 PM »
what fingering do you use where the F minor semiquavers theme gets underway?
C F Ab C Db C Bb / Ab Bb Ab G F G Ab F

I use and recommend: 123131324321231.
I don't use and don't recommend to try and be consistent on any fingering.
The next passage in Gb chord I use and recommend 1234543243214321231...
This last fingering is not necessarily for big hands, as with every single note that's being played the hand should be moving along to always be right on top of the playing note.
I also recommend to use the wrist circles technique, especially with the first 8 notes of either of these passages, as it lends itself to it so well.
Please note that this movement is not Presto (not yet...), not even plain Allegro, but just
"Allegro , ma non troppo". So rather than worry about speed, think of a beautiful singing tone and legato.
Good luck with it,
Rami
http://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
http://www.listen.to/rami

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #5 on: April 10, 2007, 09:15:34 PM »
Please note that this movement is not Presto (not yet...), not even plain Allegro, but just
"Allegro , ma non troppo". So rather than worry about speed, think of a beautiful singing tone and legato.

That's one option.

I prefer it at presto, and when 'presto' is actually indicated, prestissimo.
Da SDC Piano Forum :
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Offline ramibarniv

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #6 on: April 10, 2007, 09:31:02 PM »
That's one option.
I prefer it at presto, and when 'presto' is actually indicated, prestissimo.

My variation on Rosalyn Tureck's famous phrase:
You'll play it the way you prefer it and I'll play it the way Beethoven preferred it.
Best,
Rami
http://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
http://www.listen.to/rami

Offline phil39

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #7 on: April 10, 2007, 11:22:55 PM »
amazed i got so many replies already. lots of interesting opinions and advice, thanks. i'll stick with 5th finger on the top C but 1-2-3-4 on the Gb arpeggio and i'll put the thing on U tube so you can all see how it goes. just give me a year ;)

Offline frederic chopin

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #8 on: April 14, 2007, 11:10:09 PM »
I would use whatever fingering that is comfortable with the least risk of making technical errors BUT ensuring that the beat is clear - thus, I agree with what opus10no2 has said.

Rami's advice is worth noting - Beethoven does not write things down for no reason. No point starting off too fast because you won't have any scope of getting faster where it matters.

I like Perahia's recording of this movement!  :)
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♫ ABRSM Grade 8 Theory of Music (Distinction)
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Offline phil13

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #9 on: April 15, 2007, 12:17:30 AM »
I thought the same, but this fingering puts musical purpose above ease of execution.

It ensures a strong accent on the C, and this is important for the pulse racing vibe of the piece.

Some other fingerings would naturally accent other notes, and ruin the feel of the music.

If you can get an accent with your fingering on the right note, then go with it.

I agree with Comme.

1-2-4-3-4-3-2-1 is awkward, but places the accent in the right place because of the shift.

I also ran across the following alternative but haven't tried it:

2-1-2-3-4-3-2-1.

Phil

Offline ramibarniv

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #10 on: April 15, 2007, 08:16:44 AM »
I deleted my own post,
Rami

Offline frederic chopin

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #11 on: April 15, 2007, 08:36:58 AM »
Rami,

You have grossly misunderstood my post.

The first point in my post refers to fingering:
I agree with op10no2 regarding his comments that the second fingering mentioned in phil39's post having the intention of accenting the C which is on the beat.

The second point in my post refers to Beethoven's performance directions/tempo:
I do not agree with op10 no2's second post about starting off the movement as Presto. I said that what you wrote your post is worth noting (i.e. taking note of) and not worth nothing.
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♫ ABRSM Grade 8 Theory of Music (Distinction)
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Offline ramibarniv

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #12 on: April 15, 2007, 08:45:55 AM »
Rami,

You have grossly misunderstood my post.


You are right, I must be getting dyslectic or something, I apologize,
Rami

P.S. I am embarrassed, so I'm deleting my post....

Offline frederic chopin

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #13 on: April 15, 2007, 08:49:10 AM »
You are right, I must be getting dyslectic or something, I apologize,
Rami

P.S. I am embarrassed, so I'm seleting my post....
It is still quoted in yours, though you could delete it too...

No problem, I'll delete it after this. :)
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♫ ABRSM Grade 8 Theory of Music (Distinction)
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Offline ramibarniv

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #14 on: April 15, 2007, 08:53:08 AM »
No problem, I'll delete it after this. :)

Thanks.
I can see us laughing about it, one day in the future when we meet...
Dyslectic Me

Offline nick

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #15 on: April 15, 2007, 11:27:56 AM »
I use and recommend: 123131324321231.
I don't use and don't recommend to try and be consistent on any fingering.
The next passage in Gb chord I use and recommend 1234543243214321231...
This last fingering is not necessarily for big hands, as with every single note that's being played the hand should be moving along to always be right on top of the playing note.
I also recommend to use the wrist circles technique, especially with the first 8 notes of either of these passages, as it lends itself to it so well.
Please note that this movement is not Presto (not yet...), not even plain Allegro, but just
"Allegro , ma non troppo". So rather than worry about speed, think of a beautiful singing tone and legato.
Good luck with it,
Rami
http://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
http://www.listen.to/rami

ditto for me. perfect.

Nick

Offline phil39

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #16 on: April 16, 2007, 01:56:12 AM »
I would use whatever fingering that is comfortable with the least risk of making technical errors BUT ensuring that the beat is clear - thus, I agree with what opus10no2 has said.

Rami's advice is worth noting - Beethoven does not write things down for no reason. No point starting off too fast because you won't have any scope of getting faster where it matters.

I like Perahia's recording of this movement!  :)

i too have an LTCL in performance. hoping to work up to a LRSM in a year or 2 (it's a much higher standard.. no comparison) , and ultimately (my 5 year aim) an FRSM in performance. one can dream  :)

Offline frederic chopin

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #17 on: April 17, 2007, 01:14:50 PM »
Thanks.
I can see us laughing about it, one day in the future when we meet...
Dyslectic Me
Ha! Ha! *Laughing about it already* :)
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♫ ABRSM Grade 8 Theory of Music (Distinction)
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Offline maxy

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Re: Appassionata 3rd movement
«Reply #18 on: May 18, 2007, 04:22:52 PM »
I use:

124143214321231


Same as I do!  ;D
It works wonders!