Mozart kv 491, 3rd mov, eingang/cadenza?

[bennom]

Hello!

Are there any written cadenzas/eingang for the third movement of Mozart's c minor PC kv 491?

By beethoven, or brahms, or just anyone would be of interest.

Thanks,

bennom

[thalbergmad]

I have a few, but at the moment attachments seem to be out of action.

Hamelin
Busoni
Hummel
Faure
Schnittke
Smetana
Brahms

For obvious reasons, i would not be able to post a couple of those.

Thal

[pianistimo]

jonathan biss (a young performer who played this with the philly orchestra) composed his own cadenzas for this pc.  wondering how much he would let go of the scores for?  and, of course, badura-skoda.  alfred brendel and murray perahia being several of my favorites for various mozart concerto.  also, i believe cassedesus was recommended.  if you just take a listen to some of these - you can better come up with a more appropriate one than, say, brahms or beethoven's.  ugh.

they, according to denis pajot (a mozart scholar) are too much like beethoven and brahms instead of mozart.   i think beethoven only wrote cadenzas for the K 466.  clara schumann probably modified brahms cadenzas to the 1st and 2nd mov'ts of the K466 because it sounded more like brahms than mozart.  brahms also wrote a cadenza for the first movement of the K 491.

john cramer, emanuel forster, karl hoffman (thought to have too much figuration), johann hummel (thought by some to have excessive length and incompatible with main body of work).

mozart's own son franz xavier wrote for the K 466, 450, 467, and 503.  they are preserved in the bibliothek des conservatoriori giuseppe verdi.  august muller (wrote to 8 mozart pc's - very good writing - muller was the former cantor of the church of st. thomas and had been a pupil of jc bach), carl reineke (0p 87 cadenzas), camille saint-saens (to three concertos - but they sound too foreign in style).  mendelssohn had a good sense, according to some, of how to write mozart cadenzas (although i don't think he wrote for the K 491). 

[pianistimo]

denis pajot's articles are very insightful - because there is a method to the madness for writing mozart lead-in's and cadenzas.  i bought the barenreiter urtext and when you go through mozart's own cadenzas (the ones extant) you begin to see his style and how sweet and simple they are.  usually not pages and pages.  beethoven's is actually rather funny because he likes to modulate in the cadenza and go into foreign keys.  mozart was less prone to wander far from 'normal' modulations unless there was some chromatic lead-in - but even then he makes you 'feel' the key by not writing pages and pages.

here is a site where i gleaned some helpful information:  https://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:d6bMMR04RgkJ:www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/archive/index.php/t-202.html+mendelssohn+cadenza+for+mozart+K+491&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

radu lupu played this in 1997 with the philly orchestra (fannie bloomfield ziegler having played it many many years ago with stokowski).

ps in reading what denis pajot wrote about mendelssohn's cadenzas for the K491 - it seems that he ended the last movement with a cadenza and that clara schumann was impressed by it's beauty.  unfortunately, these cadenzas are not extant?

[pianistimo]

i found this peter's site which highly recommend mueller's cadenzas.  i've never seen them.  look to the right hand side:

https://www.sheetmusic1.com/cfp.mamlok.mozart.html

ernst von dohnanyi also wrote an eingange and cadenza for the K491 last mov't.  i don't know how pleasing it is.  it's published but i've not searched for it or seen it.  the original autographed manuscripts of dohnanyi's eingange and cadenzas are at Florida State University in the dohnanyi archives or memorial or some such library.

[bennom]

I have a few, but at the moment attachments seem to be out of action.

Hamelin
Busoni
Hummel
Faure
Schnittke
Smetana
Brahms

For obvious reasons, i would not be able to post a couple of those.

Thal

Thal, is the busoni and fauré cadenzas for the 3rd movement as well?

[thalbergmad]

To be honest, i have no idea.

Thal