1st pianist to perform a solo piano recital memorized

[Alde]

Who was the first pianist to perform a solo piano recital memorized?

Was it Liszt?  Or possibly Clara Schumann?  I am not quite sure.

[frederic chopin]

If I'm not mistaken, it was Liszt.

[Bob]

Probably the most famous, Liszt.  There is another one, but I can't remember -- Clara?  Mendelssohn?


It does look kind of weird now when I see someone play a solo and use music.

[invictious]

FLISZT.

[thalbergmad]

Possibly Herz

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Dussek?

[thalbergmad]

Me thinks he was first to give recital sideways.

You know what i mean, hopefully.

Thal

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't think that Liszt actually started a trend of playing music by memory, I think people have been doing that for thousands of years, even before writing music down was even thought about. I am sure that there where many people playing things by memory on the piano before Liszt, Franz was simply the most famous of them.

[pianoperfmajor]

I don't think that Liszt actually started a trend of playing music by memory, I think people have been doing that for thousands of years, even before writing music down was even thought about. I am sure that there where many people playing things by memory on the piano before Liszt, Franz was simply the most famous of them.

No, you're wrong.  According to Lebrecht's book entitled Who Killed Classical Music, Liszt was in fact the first pianist to perform an entire piano program from memory.  This is where the term "recital" originated, as it was thought that he was "reciting" the music from his head.  Liszt doing this is precisely what started the trend of performing piano music totally from memory.

[pianistimo]

liszt also said that beethoven said 'watch out for this young turk' - and that was after he was asked by liszt to transpose a prelude/fugue or just the fugue - when in reality - beethoven was deaf by that point and probably waved his hands and mumbled something inaudible.  truth be told - i suppose beethoven wrote what he had to say on paper - BUT, if he did write in on paper - where's the paper now?  liszt would have held onto it.  liszt was the 'first' to do this, and the 'first' to do that.  i bet he was the first to not eat spaghetti.  i bet the flying spaghetti monster made him less of a god. 

anwyas, don't believe all the textbooks you read. 

liszt was a genius because he worked hard and smart.  no more.  no less.  clara schumann could have given him a run for his money if she wanted to.  and, ps  bach played in his sleep.  mozart played upside down and backwards.  they were all piano monkeys.  well - maybe clavier, clavichord monkeys.  they were the precusor to the pianoforte.  actually, it was called the fortepiano -first.  at least in late mozart and through beethoven's lifetime, right?  then, someone messed up the order.  theresa paradis could have taken liszt to task with her memory abilities.  after all, she was blind!  ok different generation.

'paradis had an excellent memory and exceptionally accurate hearing.  she was widely reported to have learned over 60 piano concertos by heart as well as a large repertoire of solo and religious works.'  answers.com

[m]

liszt also said that beethoven said 'watch out for this young turk' - and that was after he was asked by liszt to transpose a prelude/fugue or just the fugue - when in reality - beethoven was deaf by that point and probably waved his hands and mumbled something inaudible.  truth be told - i suppose he could write it on paper - BUT, if he did write in on paper - where's the paper now?  liszt would have held onto it.  liszt was the 'first' to do this, and the 'first' to do that.  i bet he was the first to not eat spaghetti.  i bet the flying spaghetti monster made him less of a god. 

anwyas, don't believe all the textbooks you read. 

liszt was a genius because he worked hard and smart.  no more.  no less.  clara schumann could have given him a run for his money if she wanted to.  and, ps  bach played in his sleep.  mozart played upside down and backwards.  they were all piano monkeys.  well - maybe clavier, clavichord monkeys.  they were the precusor to the pianoforte.  actually, it was called the fortepiano -first.  at least in late mozart and through beethoven's lifetime, right?  then, someone messed up the order.  theresa paradis could have taken liszt to task with her memory abilities.  after all, she was blind!  ok different generation.

'paradis had an excellent memory and exceptionally accurate hearing.  she was widely reported to have learned over 60 piano concertos by heart as well as a large repertoire of solo and religious works.'  answers.com

Wow!

That's the heck of a message
Not that I understood anything...
Could you do the same but little bit slower, shorter, and more concise

Best regards, M

[jakev2.0]

Someone should introduce pianistimo to the concept of a THESIS STATEMENT.

[thalbergmad]

Could you do the same but little bit slower, shorter, and more concise

I have been trying for ages.

I don't fancy your chances.

Thal

[pianistimo]

thesis statement:  liszt wasn't the first to do anything spectacular.  it had all been done before.  and, yet - he had charisma.  charm.  and, perhaps a bit of some kind of 'spiritual edge.'  i wouldn't call it totally balanced - but then, for the purposes of the music (to induce an otherworldliness) - it fit the 'romantic' bill.

women like romance.  women liked liszt.  liszt liked women.  music was the prelude to seducing the largest amount possible in the least amount of time.  i mean, within a couple of hour concert he could probably have had 5-6 very rich and influential women just throwing money at him.  but, as i say - it had been done before.  maybe not to that extent.  anyways, he probably didn't need money, per se.  he needed the reassurrance.  i think i heard somewhere's that liszt's father was somewhat absent from his life.  perhaps the need to gain adulation and affection was a constant thing - until later in life. 

back to theresa von paradis.  she composed, too (different generation).  her fantasy and variations (on her own theme) could have made liszt sit back and think twice about calling himself the first REAL pianist.  she could play recitals and also add in a few of her own compositions or cadenzas or whatever was called for.  and, she was also well read and quite amazing for her day.

ps  i think liszt was capable of much depth of feeling - and many wondrous turns of fancy.  i also think he was at times somewhat full of himself.

perhaps the problem here is a lack of concert programs to show for each time a performer sat down and played for an hour or hour and half (or two or three).  the noblity just asked the performers to sit down and play -- without a program written down always.  perhaps it was background music.  or foreground.  or for a special occasion.  anyways - the concerts would sometimes be recorded by what the listeners wrote down.

mozart, being somewhat more free of the constraints placed on artists (esp women) was probably the first to challenge the status quo of private concerts for noblilty and make his concerts public.  we have some recital programs and i'm quite sure that mozart did not NEED to always have the music in front of him.  his extemporizing was known to be quite extraordinare.  so take that liszt.

having said all this - i think that liszt could win practically anyone over to his side because he knew how to philosophize, too.  and, he was probably more generous to others than others were to him.  and seemed to have fantastic talent not just for piano and composition, but for teaching.  i'm sure that if liszt lived in my neighborhood, i'd soon be at the door asking for lessons.  he immersed himself in music and made room for everyone at concerts.  even if there were jealous rivals and intruiege - he certainly could never be called dull. 

[pianistimo]

i am surprised that thal has not yet seen fit to challenge liszt's superiority by saying that it was indeed thalberg that gave the first piano recital by memory.

[m]

thesis statement:  liszt wasn't the first to do anything spectacular. 

Well, in fact he was, and he was one of the GREATEST innovators, the man who turned upside down the whole musical world, the man who completely reconsidered the keyboard use and discovered new technical means and ways of expression, the man who developed truly modern technique, the man who found new coloristical secrets of each register of the keyboard and first man who made piano sound like an orchestra and use the keyboard in its whole entirety.

His contributions were not only in the piano developlments, but also in symphonic music--orchestral poems, program music, etc., etc.

Just a little abstract from my MM thesis from many years ago.

Best, M

[thalbergmad]

i am surprised that thal has not yet seen fit to challenge liszt's superiority by saying that it was indeed thalberg that gave the first piano recital by memory.

I am surprised that you have made a post of less then 500 words.

Thal

[pianistimo]

now is your chance, thal, to set marik straight. 

[thalbergmad]

About what?

His knowledge of piano is 1000 times mine.

I have no info that would indicate that Thalberg gave solo recitals without a score before Liszt. They were both very active in the 1830's and the chances are that they both did.

Thalberg played a lot less of other peoples music than Liszt. I can see no reason why he would have used a score for his own music.

Thal

[steinwaymodeld]

From the book Great Pianists by Harold Schonberg, who was known for performing music entirely without music.
The reason that people didn't do it before wasn't because of the lack of metal capability (as i doubt Liszt would have any problem with memorizing any piece of music at all), it's simply out of the respect of the composer him/herself.
It was considered disrespectful to perform without a piece of music, and by performing such act was simply considered a cheap trick to impress the audience. (not that i suggest Clara was)

Since we don't have a time-machine, and also because Clara was Liszt's contemporaries, one does not know for sure who had debut a recital without sheetmusic entirely, and the textbooks are the only information we can rely on.

[pianistimo]

robert schumann pawnd them all before he broke his finger.  his concerts were for 'friends, siblings, spouses.' 

so much for thal defending thalberg.  i'm so disappointed.

i am now searching for mendelssohn's first gig.  he met liszt when liszt was around 14.  moscheles was grey by the time liszt was 17.  halle.  anton rubinstein. 

ok. what we are talking here is NOT the first pianist to play a recital from memory (or even partly from memory) - we are talking the first to have performance ATTITUDE.  i mean, this guy was cocky.  even for lessons.  they all rose and bowed?  ok.  and that was after he dissed the aristocracy years before.  saying 'music herself should be silent when nicolas speaks.'  (nicolas I of russia had spoken during a liszt recital).

ps hans von bulow thought saint-saens was a better score reader and all-around musician than liszt.  perhaps this is comparing two genius who don't need comparison - but for the record (since liszt has so much of a 'campaign') - saint-saens read the full-score manuscript of wagner's sigfried prima vista the first time he sightread it.  nobody talks about that.  oh and saint-saens had absolute pitch at the age of two.  played the piano part of beethoven violin sonata at the age of five.  learned latin, geometry and history with equal ease.  and, at six he composed 'le soir.'  at seven he studied with stamaty, and the next year made his debut playing a mozart piano concerto, beethvoen's c minor concerto, a sonata by hummel, a prelude and fugue by bach, and pieces by handel and kalkbrener.  ALL THESE HE PLAYED BY MEMORY.  (according to 'the great pianists' by arnold schoenberg  pg 264).

ok.  going back to the dates.  i will find programs from other composers.  whether they played from memory or not will rely on the witnesses who saw the recitals.

[pianistimo]

anton rubinstein had an equally colossal memory 'until about his fiftieth year.  then, he began to have memory lapses and had to play from the printed note.'  (pg 259)  he was also known for 'lightness, grace, and delicacy' when he wanted to - but, unfortunately, most often he pounded and hit wrong notes at that.  anyways, he did put out a good 'rendition of schubert's erlkonig, arr. by liszt, gloriously.'

just showing that liszt probably had good reason not to take this guy on as a student.  a little competition?

here's another title in this book:  'henselt kills.'  now, what, may i ask - is the purpose in attempting to say 'liszt was first at this and that.'  henselt had a freakish hand, btw, (abnormal formation that made his piano playing really good) - and in this resepct 'henselt, like paganini, was a freak.'  'he could play stretches, wide-spread chords, and incredible jumps....'
  the sad thing is:  'considered by many to be the peer of liszt, he was, however, too nervous to play in public.  ok.  that rules him out.  but, listen to this:  'when playing with an orchestra he would hide in the wings until the opning tutti was over, rush out and literally pounce on the piano...on one occasion he forgot to put aside the cigar he was nervously chomping - this was in russia - and played the concerto cigar in mouth, smoking away, much to the amusement of the czar.'  (but, the mere thought of performing in public made him physically ill).

[pianistimo]

back to thalberg.  'liszt had written a review of thalberg's music and said it was trash.  the review appeared in the january 8, 1837, issue of the gazette musicale.'  so i am assuming that this 'duel' was set up whilst thalberg was out of town for a while.  then, the story was that liszt made a call on thalberg and suggested a joint concert on two pianos.  thalberg politely turne dhim down.  'no.'  he said, 'i do not like to be accompanied.'

'thus there was some bad blood between liszt and thalberg.  the latter returned to paris in 1837 ad appeared on the afternoon of march 12 at the concservatoire, playing his Fantasia on God save the King and his Mozart Fantasia.  the following sunday, liszt took over the opera house, hurling back at thalberg his (liszt's) Niobe Fantasia and the Weber Concertstuck.  so far it was a standoff, with liszt showing the greater daring by renting the opera house.  when the princess belgiojoso (herself a fair amateur pianist) invited both pianists to play in her salon on March 31, at a benefit for the italian refugees, she scored the social coup of the decade.  the gazette musicale announced the program on March 26.  'the greatest interest...will be without question the simultaneous appearance of two talents whose rivalry at this time agitates the musical world, and is like the indecisive balance between rome and carthage.  mm. listz and thalberg will take turns at the piano.'  the french always had trouble spelling liszt's name, which often appeared as litz, or lits, or listz.  tickets were priced at fourty francs, and everybody in paris who could be there was there...all eyes and ears were on liszt, who played his Niobe, and thalberg, who played his Moses.  it was decided that thalberg was the best pianist in the world.  and liszt?  he was the only one.'

the difference between the two was apparent at the keyboard.  'where liszt swarmed all over the keyboard with wild gesticulations, sigismon thalberg sat erect and prim, creating his effects with a minimum of gesture.'  for the record, in mendelssohn's mind (and writing), THALBERG WON.

[steinwaymodeld]

my reply was directly answering the question of this thread, which was asking who was the first pianist to perform a public recital entirely by memory.

According to Schonberg in his book, it was Clara Schumann.

Pianisstimo, I gave up after half way thru ur first reply, as I don't really see if u are replying to my response or not, or even if u are trying to convey anything solid.

Next time try to be more compact about ur opinion, i am sure u can save A LOT of space.

[Alde]

anton rubinstein had an equally colossal memory 'until about his fiftieth year.  then, he began to have memory lapses and had to play from the printed note.'  (pg 259)  he was also known for 'lightness, grace, and delicacy' when he wanted to - but, unfortunately, most often he pounded and hit wrong notes at that.  anyways, he did put out a good 'rendition of schubert's erlkonig, arr. by liszt, gloriously.'

just showing that liszt probably had good reason not to take this guy on as a student.  a little competition?

here's another title in this book:  'henselt kills.'  now, what, may i ask - is the purpose in attempting to say 'liszt was first at this and that.'  henselt had a freakish hand, btw, (abnormal formation that made his piano playing really good) - and in this resepct 'henselt, like paganini, was a freak.'  'he could play stretches, wide-spread chords, and incredible jumps....'
  the sad thing is:  'considered by many to be the peer of liszt, he was, however, too nervous to play in public.  ok.  that rules him out.  but, listen to this:  'when playing with an orchestra he would hide in the wings until the opning tutti was over, rush out and literally pounce on the piano...on one occasion he forgot to put aside the cigar he was nervously chomping - this was in russia - and played the concerto cigar in mouth, smoking away, much to the amusement of the czar.'  (but, the mere thought of performing in public made him physically ill).

What is the title of the book that you are referirng?  Page 259 of The Great Pianists deals with Tausig.

[pianistimo]

we must have different editions.  rubenstein is on that page in mine.  simon and schuster 1963. 

ok.  as i see it:

mozart
maria theresa paradis
thalberg
henselt
mendelssohn
robert schumann (to his limited public)
clara schumann

all these could easily play from memory an entire recital.  they were probably first, too.  i'm sure there were a few before mozart.

you all want quick concise things that state 'fact.'  well, there is no such thing as the 'perfect' textbook.  you have to look it up for yourself.

#1 misnomer - people didn't play works of other composers because of publishing problems.  'by beethoven's time there were pianists who, for the first time in history, started looking into works of composers other than themselves.'

#2 misnomer - no public concerts from memory until liszt.  we know for sure that mozart performed many times (from memory).  and for sure, maria theresa von paradis (she was BLIND.  do i need to spell this out?)  i'm sure thalberg did - about the same time as liszt.
 
#3 misnomer - liszt had all the technique.  saint-saens, henselt, thalberg - quite a few people had technique.  they may not have had as much charm - but they had some pretty good technique.  and, were certainly capable of giving recitals just as well as liszt.

the only thing i think is not a misnomer - is that liszt wanted to appear 'larger than life.'  unfortunely, he died.  this proves he was only a human being.

[pianistimo]

i suppose gottschalk played everything - reading the music.  hahahahahah. just don't believe everything you read.

ok.  the salons of many noble people had recitals regularly.  gottschalk played at the pleyel salon on april 2, 1845 - and because word had gotten around - a distinguished audience appeared including chopin and kalkbrenner (who - btw, had played themselves in many salons - FROM MEMORY).  gottschalk played chopin's e minor concerto and operatic transcriptions by liszt and thalberg.  gottschalk also being a composer and later playing many of his own works.

chopin may have been shy - but who can actually prove that he didn't play a memorized public concert before liszt?  it depends on whom you ask. 

somebody is fudging my spelling.

here is the problem:  find the recital programs for every recital.  perhaps in some of the salons it was casual?  perhaps for aristocracy it was 'made to order.'  what we need are eyewitnesses to prove this 'first' for liszt was maybe the 1000th time. 

[thalbergmad]

I think you should take another quick look at the title of this thread my little PA Princess.

It was rare before Liszt/Thalberg/Clara for pianists to play **SOLO** recitals.

Shame you were not around in 1856, when Thalberg came to Philly.

Thal

[pianistimo]

another misnomer.

i just googled for cristofori's own public piano recital after he invented the piano.  so far, haven't found it - but i'm looking.  anyways, here's something i find interesting.  people performed publicly on schmidt pianos in 1763 and bach played public piano recitals and i doubt they were not memorized.  i believe they were solo.  have to look at the records which may only be eyewitnesses to the recitals and not programs. 

define public.  as i see it - not for the aristocracy.  could be in a salon in someone's home - or in a public place as was done in 1763.
https://piano300.si.edu/timeline.htm  scroll down to 1763  and 1767 - jc bach  1773 - ny broadwood. 

i guess we have to find some programs to prove that some of these people could play from memory in a solo recital.  at least by the time of mozart and theresa von paradis - it was known fact that composer/pianists had played SOLO recitals from memory.  that is waayyyy before clara schumann.  i want to prove that liszt was not some kind of superhuman.  he just expanded the idea.  it wasn't invented by him.

ps - this article jousts it's own earlier statements when it comes to liszt being 'the first' to perform solo public recital without assisting artists.  who can prove this?  i want to see it proven.

[thalbergmad]

i guess we have to find some programs to prove that some of these people could play from memory in a solo recital.  at least by the time of mozart and theresa von paradis - it was known fact that composer/pianists had played SOLO recitals from memory.  that is waayyyy before clara schumann.  i want to prove that liszt was not some kind of superhuman.  he just expanded the idea.  it wasn't invented by him.

There are some programmes from JC Bach's time, when he started his series of recitals in London in the 1760's i believe. Even then, there were singers and orchestral pieces included in the programme. To my knowledge, solo recitals were a by product of the Romantic movement where the pianist was king.

After about 50 years research, you may dig something up that proves me wrong.

Liszt was superhuman.

Thal