Portato in Op.25 No.2

[phil13]

In my Dover edition, this Chopet is marked legato almost all the way through, with the exception of measure 57, beats 3 and 4, which are marked portamento portato.

Is this even possible at half=112? There are no markings to slow down, but at that speed I can't imagine that there'd be much of a difference between legato and staccato...to the listener, it'd be over before you got a chance to even notice it.

Phil

[pianistimo]

i'll look in my paderewski edition.  unfortunately, i have to take a nap for 10 minutes before i collapse.  kindergarten musical wore me out last night.  i'll get to it asap.

[ramseytheii]

In Chopin, there don't have to be any markings to justify rubato, since he was notoriously fickly with making any marks at all.  The portato (not portamento) markings are definitely to be played in the rubato style, since he wrote those for poetic emphasis!

Walter Ramsey

[phil13]

In Chopin, there don't have to be any markings to justify rubato, since he was notoriously fickly with making any marks at all.  The portato (not portamento) markings are definitely to be played in the rubato style, since he wrote those for poetic emphasis!

Walter Ramsey

D'oh! Meant portato, but didn't have a music dictionary on me.

Phil

[pianistimo]

the paderewski version doesn't have this marking - but does have smorz. marking from measure 47-50.  at measure 51 it is marked here 'a tempo.'  perhaps the dover adds a lot more editors markings?  paderewski simply has a crescendo in measure 57 and the highest part of cresc. on beat 4  (being a cresc. within in 'sempre piano' marking at m. 51 for the entire page).

the paderewski is following the mauscript from maria wodzinska's album, reproduced in L. Binetal's work Chopin (reproductions 56-58). 

i have all the cortot edition etudes, too.  i'll look and see what he wrote in there at this point (m. 57).  on the fourth beat of the 57th measure, cortot adds 'cedendo.'  cedendo means 'yielding' or 'slowing down.'  so, perhaps cortot gave a bit of slowing on the last four staccatoed eighth notes (which cortot has put a slur over). actually, the last five notes are staccattoed in both cortot's edition and paderewski.  and both have the last four of these eighth notes in a phrase slur.

[ramseytheii]

Just to clarify, notes with dots on them and slurs over them are called portato, it's easier than saying "staccatoed notes with slurs over them"

Walter Ramsey

[cygnusdei]

Are you sure it's not potato?

[phil13]

Pretty sure. 

Phil

[ramibarniv]

In my Dover edition, this Chopet is marked legato almost all the way through, with the exception of measure 57, beats 3 and 4, which are marked portamento.

Is this even possible at half=112? There are no markings to slow down, but at that speed I can't imagine that there'd be much of a difference between legato and staccato...to the listener, it'd be over before you got a chance to even notice it.

Phil

Everything is written in the music, but not everything is spelled out.
This portato markings by Chopin is his way of suggesting that you slow down a bit.
It was obvious to him that one must slow down a bit in order to follow this portato, so marking it with rit. would probably seem redundant to him.
That's why many editors add a rit. to that part.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[pianistimo]

specifying WHICH notes are portato is important, though, right?!  i mean if you just have the word portato - it might refer to the entire third beat. whereas, in two editions - it is the last four notes.  anyways - who really cares - as long as there is just a little importance to the area and not a major rubato - which would mess up the flow.

[dnephi]

Check the Cortot edition- he clearly discusses what Portato means in place of portamento.