chopin.......................BALLADE NO.1! unfortunatly...

[imbetter]

... i ran out of tape in the middle ill record the rest some other time

a lot of wrong notes in the fast section


randomly a little sloppy so sorrry 

link expired 

[beethoven2]

  I got all excited....

[imbetter]

i forgot the link ill post in a second

[beethoven2]

I think that would be appreciated. 


*Gets all excited again*

[imbetter]

posted it

[pianowolfi]

well we all have a long way to go haven't we?

[imbetter]

yes especially for 12 year olds attempting massive pieces

[pianistimo]

you're only 12.  that's impressive, actually.  don't you love that middle section.  i think it's swell.  you can only get better playing chopin.  provided he doesn't totally mess up your mind.  those ballades are very difficult. 

now, about minor details.  the tops of your legs are practically touching the underside of the keyboard.  any way to get an adjustable bench so you can sit a slight bit lower? 

you have excellent relaxation for playing.  the only thing is - you can also go too far with the relaxation and start tilting your hands to one side or other.  perhaps i am to perfectionistic with this - but i would try to keep your hands 'centered' (feel the center of your hand) at all times (even if it means the thumb or pinky aren't really touching the keyboard much).  it helps when you start speeding up passages more and more.  you don't get stuck on the last finger.

[Mozartian]

Basically, you have a lot of work to do. I'd recommend not studying it seriously, it's way beyond you (and beyond myself as well).

Did you win the competition you supposedly played it in? heh.

Thanks for posting a "serious" rec though, even though you cut out the coda.

[danny elfboy]

Passions and emotions imo are there,
The probme is the averall structure of the piece
Image the piece like consecutive sections.
In my opinions you've control of the individual sections but not on the structure tieing them together. What you need to work more at this point  is linking all those sections smoothly

I think I will refrain from commenting on the dynamic and volume because it seems to be a problem (o limitation) of your instrument and not your playing.

As for pianistimo comment about height, you're actually imo sitting too low.
You need to maintain your forearm parallel to the floor and in straight line with the wrist to avoid friction on the ligaments and tendons and to take advantage of the weight of the sel supporting structure of the arm. This means that the elbows are at the same lvel of slightly higher than the top of the white keys.
An anatomical rule in healthy piano playing is that your wrist should never be lower than your knuckles. When you find the correct position it's almost impossible to pull your wrist lower then the knuckles while it is very natural when sitting at the wrong height.

If your knees are touching the underside of the keyboard it means your knees are not lower than your hips bones (anither crucial anatomical rule)
The way to lower your knees is to move the bench backwayrd and sit at the edge so that the legs are free to move and be oblique rather than being supported(hindered by the bench and remain high

[pianistimo]

perhaps he should play a studio upright instead of a console.  you're right.  if we lower the bench - he goes into midget land.

[arensky]

TUNE THE PIANO!!!! 

The slower parts are very expressive and musical, if rather overpedaled and unfocused, not to mention all the wrong notes. The technical passages are a disaster, but the "B" sections octaves show that you can do it .

You have an excellent touch and tone production and the right instincts for what to do, particularly with melodic phrasing. Now, you have to get some discipline and hit the right notes and get your foot off the pedal. Make your fingers work. Your only bad habit seems to be willful dilletantism. You could be really good, or you can keep slopping around like this. The choice is yours.

Suggested repertoire (this piece is too much for you right now); Chopin, Nocturne in B major from Op.32. Bach Inventions. Mozart, Fantasy in d minor. Debussy, Reverie. Khachaturian, Toccata. They should keep you busy for awhile.

Keep at it, but with much more focus and intent. 

[danny elfboy]

Yes definitely the piano needs some tuning.

But I don't agree that imbetter should first practice all those piece before attempting this one. In all fields the challenge of something very hard and harder than you can tackle is really the best way to learn.

The collacteral effect of focusing on the progressive method too far is that one remains "stuck" on the same level for an unecessary long period as the only thing at that point that would allow advancing is playing something harder, the challenge of mastering it being the best learning tool ever.

The point is that at some point a faith of leap is always necessary and can't be avoided.
The child that keeps using the lifebelt when swimming could go on with it for years and still be using the lifebelt even after 6 years has passed since the moment he/she could already swim on his/her own. At some point (and sooner the later) a leap of faith is necessary to "risk" and try to advance the swimming level by taking up the challenge of swimming without a lifebelt.

The stage by stage/ grade by grade/ progressive method has many flaws and also many (including professionals and teaching experts) detractors.

But it's also true that a certain basilar form need to be automatic and subconscious before one can be "distracted" by harder challenges.

So I believe that the progressive method should apply only at the beginning when the basic motions of a coordinative skills are to be learned in a subconscious way.
After that I would abandon such method completely and focus on playing very hard pieces as a way to really advance at a personal pace ... of course the challenge of complex pieces should be approached not rushing but with a meticolous care and focus

[imbetter]

TUNE THE PIANO!!!! 

The slower parts are very expressive and musical, if rather overpedaled and unfocused, not to mention all the wrong notes. The technical passages are a disaster, but the "B" sections octaves show that you can do it .

You have an excellent touch and tone production and the right instincts for what to do, particularly with melodic phrasing. Now, you have to get some discipline and hit the right notes and get your foot off the pedal. Make your fingers work. Your only bad habit seems to be willful dilletantism. You could be really good, or you can keep slopping around like this. The choice is yours.

Suggested repertoire (this piece is too much for you right now); Chopin, Nocturne in B major from Op.32. Bach Inventions. Mozart, Fantasy in d minor. Debussy, Reverie. Khachaturian, Toccata. They should keep you busy for awhile.

Keep at it, but with much more focus and intent. 

i think that suggestion was more of an attack than critism

[phil13]

i think that suggestion was more of an attack than critism

What?

Arensky's comment is the one I agree on the most. He was helpful and suggested some really good things. How can you even say he's attacking you??

Like I told you before, it is possible that playing like this could really damage you. Besides, wouldn't you rather learn how to play a few smaller, easier pieces perfectly than a giant piece like this, only mediocre?

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you are asking for compliments only, and shunning constructive criticism like Arensky's. 

Phil

[imbetter]

debussy reverie, bach inventions mozartian fantasy in d minor chopin nocturne...i acctualy play all but one of his suggestions. i was playing those pieces like 2 years ago so i felt kind of insulted

[phil13]

Okay, so let's find some common ground.

Play something new, harder than the above mentioned pieces but easier than the Chopin ballade. And, put the Ballade aside- you're so young, you can always come back to it later, in a few years or so.

Phil

[phil13]

ALSO...

I went back to find your rep list. Neither the Debussy Reverie nor the Chopin B major nocturne are on it. 

Phil

[imbetter]

how long does it take to learn debussy reverie? not long. the chopin nocturne was the one i was talking about i dont play

[cristalsound]

Nice IBTY

    Just need to work it now more...cut it into pieces and work it piece by piece tempo sound musicality and so on

    Looking forward for a final version

[pianowolfi]

Imbetter . I am convinced that you are very talented and musical. but whatever pieces you play, I have the feeling that you don't really know what is actually under your hands and under your fingers. My feeling is that you should practise a LOT very slowly, very in depth, very articulated, very plastically and very exactly. For a 12 year old you have an astonishing understanding and aim on great masterworks and perhaps they fascinate you so much that you can't wait to play them, right now, furiously, ferociously, passionately. I feel very much with you! Really very much . Because I am similar. And I think of course you WILL be able to play all  the pieces you want to play one day. BUT it needs work, work in detail, patiently, slowly, repeats over repeats. I am convinced that you are a musician who will be not at all satisfied with just cheating around and making a great impression with some scetchy fast runs over the keyboard. I am convinced that you search for depth and quality. And then there is no way around patient and often very boring and very tedious work in detail. The good news: after a while you may get ADDICTED to this detail-work. It will leave you unsatisfied if you have to leave the piano for some reson BEFORE you have done that detail-work. Keep it up, man

[danny elfboy]

And, put the Ballade aside- you're so young, you can always come back to it later, in a few years or so.

Why 2 years ?!
As far as I know imbetter has been playing for  6-7 years so I don't think he would need to come back to such moderately advanced piece in 2 years.
Mind you, where I study from beginner level to graduated concertist the ministerial program is 10 years. The fact that in UK one is supposed to spend 8 years on just the ABRSM and then as many years on more advanced levels is just absurd to me.
We expect dedicated student to reach the grade 8 of ABRSM in 2-3 years at most.

I also don't think the piece was so bad to need to be set aside for such a long time.
Individual sessions are imo enough mastered what is lacking is a smooth structure of the overall piece.

I also don't believe practicing harder pieces can ever be dangerous.
Physically if you accumulated tension maybe but that's not a problem of the piece itself but how you practice and approach whatever pieces. That aside nothing is more beneficial than the challenge of trying to learn, master and understand something which is very above your level.

I also don't find it honest that so little focus is put on the instrument imbetter is playing.
It is out of tune and the video audio codec doesn't help either.

[danny elfboy]

And then there is no way around patient and often very boring and very tedious work in detail. The good news: after a while you may get ADDICTED to this detail-work. It will leave you unsatisfied if you have to leave the piano for some reson BEFORE you have done that detail-work.

Only as long as it that work is to reach small goals.
The only way that such "tedious" work can be productive and means something and belong to a certain scheme the student is in control of is to make sure you never leave the piano without having reached a specific goal in your practice and clearly it must be small enough to be reached within a session or a day of small sessions.

Those students that go on and on with the "tedious" work day after day week after week practicing the same things just for the sake of accumulating X among of time at the piano every day believing that magically will solve their technical and musical problems would just be better not practicing at all and watching television instead.
It's what I call "unpracticing" and it's way worse than non-practicing.

The worst thing is that they have all obsessive compulsive personalities and they spend 6-12 hous unpracticing and then go around bragging how all of that is necessary (and that applies even to great world famous pianists)
The problem, as I have said before, is that they can't prove those hours spent unpracticing were useful, they can't prove that if they had not done that they would be the same talented pianists they are or maybe even more.
It's the Chanticleer dilemma, of course the sun will raise even if the rooster won't crow ... but they have never tried what would happen if the rooster one day would not crow, whether the sun will rise anyway ... and they don't want to risk finding out.

[arensky]

i think that suggestion was more of an attack than critism

 

[pianistimo]

i'm in the middle.  i think that a good teacher will give you plenty to practice on that is within your grasp for a five to six month period.  what i mean - is that you will be able to learn 3-4-5 pieces altogether during this period of time.  sometimes the quantity of a series of pieces is able to enlarge your repertoire and also allow you to develop skills in a step-by-step fashion. 

BUT, nothing stops a student from just playing what they want after they practice.  i have done this (for what purpose?  because i like the music!)  graduate level pieces such as mussorgsky's pics at an exhibition.  could i get my teacher to proscribe it for me.  no. not yet.  did it stop me?  no.

there is something to systematic study in terms of quick progression - but it doesn't solely hinge on the teacher alone.  it's your own internal motivation.  and, as dannyelfboy points out - you have to be willing to practice.  how much time you have probably will determine how  much time you have left over to do what you like.  for me - that was 10 -15 minutes on the really hard stuff and 3 hours on the music that was attainable in a short period of time.

[imbetter]

ive been a serious student for many years and ive long excelled the level of those pieces.

[thalbergmad]

ive been a serious student for many years and ive long excelled the level of those pieces.

Well, i submit that it might be a good idea to go back to them.

I am going to choose my words very carefully, as i do not wish to offend you, but i just feel you have not got the arsenal to deal with this piece.

You can obviously play the piano and you obviously have passion, but i do not understand why you would want to struggle with a piece that is too much for you. I really think that you should take a little step back before you start to go forward again.

I am not a teacher, but you did not look comfortable at the piano. Perhaps a teacher could take a refreshed look at your posture. In addition, when playing octaves, you seemed not to use the wrist at all.

You have a good foundation for development and i have no doubt that in time you will play this ballad as it should be played. However, you need to take note of the constructive criticism in this thread, and not take offence in order to move forward.

Thal

Good luck

Thal

[jakev2.0]

Thank you Thalbergmad.

[xhunterjx]

You look much older than you say you are.

The only thing I can really say is...nice attempt....

I wish I had the confidence you had, but you should not be playing pieces like that until technique becomes 2nd nature.

[lavalse]

imbetter,

I  have come back to the piano after a loooong time but I would like to say something about your recording, which I have to confess has regularly flitted across my consciousness over the last day or so - and reading through your replies I'm guessing I am not the only one to be 'afflicted' in this way. 

As a teenager I was probably about the same level as you and also like you learned the notes of Ballades, Scherzos and believe it or not a certain B minor sonata .  Well yes, I learned the notes but could I 'perform' them?  not on your nelly - I practiced and practiced and - precisely nothing happened - what a complete waste of time. 

Insert about 30 years while I get educated and start a few businesses etc and now I am back at the piano - but with a totally different outlook.   I delight in learning pieces I will be capable of 'performing' within a reasonable time frame regardless of how 'easy' they appear.

But here's the interesting thing - the more I learn this 'easy' stuff to an acceptable level the better I seem to be able to hack at the notes I learned so many years ago - which I have to confess I do every now and again after a few glasses of wine when nobody is looking or listening.   So by learning pieces within my grasp my overall capability has increased while it did not at all when learning (the notes of) pieces clearly outside my grasp when I was younger.  Obvious, but needs to be said.

danny elfboy suggests its possible to have a crack at anything if it's done properly but I didn't do it properly and based on your performance I would hazard you are not either.

You have the passion, spirit and confidence and I am sure everybody here wants to see you succeed, but you really do need to apply a brake or rethink your approach to big projects...

Anyway, that said, obviously please do feel free to ignore the ramblings of an old git... 

[danny elfboy]

However, you need to take note of the constructive criticism in this thread, and not take offence in order to move forward.

I can understand the frustration of imbetter in reading the criticism in here because it sounds really to condescending for his level.
I mean all of this sounds like advices one would give to an amateur self-taught hobbist.

But imbetter has been studying piano seriously for many years, has been gone through many of the steps suggested here, has a teacher who has been following him and assigning him pieces and has attended recitals and contests.

I just think it's impossible to judge imbetter whole piano-playing skill and flaws or lacks just by listening to a piece he either hasn't working much on or has been playing some time ago forgetting much of it. Even my teacher would have have a sloppy performance without some practice or familiarity with the notes and structure.

I believe there's no link and you can't assume a link between this performance (which imbetter himself defines sloppy) and the overall level reached by imbetter in those years.

I don't believe the piece is above imbetter level just because it is sloppy and doesn't flow smoothly. Otherwise anytime I hadn't practiced enough or not mindfull enough I could have said to my teacher "sorry, it's above my level ... let's go back to Schumann Album for the Young!"

I think the problem of this thread is that everyone is assuming, playing with ampliative logic rather than focusing on the video and just the video itself.


(btw: It's not the first time I see work-in-progress videos on the Audition Room, so I don't think we should criticize everyone who doesn't upload a perfectly mastered and polished piece here)

[thalbergmad]

I just think it's impossible to judge imbetter whole piano-playing skill and flaws or lacks just by listening to a piece he either hasn't working much on or has been playing some time ago forgetting much of it.

This recording has been promised almost every day for months, so i took it that the piece was already firmly in his repetoire. Obviously i was wrong.

It is indeed difficult to judge anybodies whole piano playing skill by single recordings and there have been many work in progress pieces posted here, but it would seem from the clip we have  that at present, for one reason or another, the Ballad is beyond him.

IBTY has not exactly been backward in posting about his rep and abilities and has admitted to lying about being able to play at least one piece, so he is leaving himself a little open to criticism. If any other member had posted a recording of this piece, it would not have attracted a fraction of the attention this one has done so far.

If he is frustrated at reading the criticism, i hope that he uses it positively to fuel his ambitions further, but judging by one of his responses thus far, that does not look like the case.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to post a recording of one of the pieces he says he has "long excelled" the level of.

I am sure that he will eventually master the piece, but perhaps more time on the piano and less in the chatroom would be in order.

Thal

[jakev2.0]

I can understand the frustration of imbetter in reading the criticism in here because it sounds really to condescending for his level.
I mean all of this sounds like advices one would give to an amateur self-taught hobbist.

The flaw in your advice appears to be your blind acceptance of what imbetter says his level at the piano is, as opposed to what you can actually observe in his playing.

But imbetter has been studying piano seriously for many years, has been gone through many of the steps suggested here, has a teacher who has been following him and assigning him pieces and has attended recitals and contests.

What bearing does the amount of work and effort someone puts into some task have on their ability to perform that task.  My grandma may want to be a heart surgeon really badly. If she reads every textbook she can find, does this effort somehow qualify her to operate on your heart tomorrow? 

I just think it's impossible to judge imbetter whole piano-playing skill and flaws or lacks just by listening to a piece he either hasn't working much on or has been playing some time ago forgetting much of it. Even my teacher would have have a sloppy performance without some practice or familiarity with the notes and structure.

Cut the nonsense. He is not able to play any passage in the piece even remotely correctly. Only someone deeply deluded / ignorant about his level of skill at the piano would ever deep this type of playing competent.

(btw: It's not the first time I see work-in-progress videos on the Audition Room, so I don't think we should criticize everyone who doesn't upload a perfectly mastered and polished piece here)

WRONG. This particular member had been trumpeting his mastery of this piece, and pieces of similar difficulty for literally months. Even those members who had the benefit of not hearing his arrogance in the chats came to the conclusion that he was unable to play the piece.

In conclusion, this is one ballade malade.

[Mozartian]

Honestly, the funniest thing about all of this is that he claims to have played this in a competition in April (unfortunately, his school flooded and then burnt down after the competition, so we are deprived of that recording).

I'd be surprised if IBTY is actually studying with a teacher right now.

[lazlo]

Putting aside the performance, I've said this before, but... I just don't understand what the fixation is with playing extremely difficult pieces when there's so much music out there that's just as musically rewarding (that one can actually play). Especially with piano. I play violin too, and with that, the really rewarding pieces often are at really high levels, but with piano, there' s such a wealth of repetoire at the easiest levels that is still just as musically rewarding as some of the more difficult stuff. Seriously, piano has SO much great music at all levels, its just incredible. It shouldn't be an insult to play something easier. I go back all the time and play easier things (on both violin and piano). Its such a limiting view to eliminate pieces to play based on them being not "impressive" enough or "difficult" enough. Look at the greats, they played ALL the repetoire. I have recordings of professional piainsts recording the bartok pieces for children, and yes mozart d minor fantasia... Easier stuff is no less music, and so much can always be learned by playing things that are maybe slightly under you (although it is good to balance this with challenge).

[danny elfboy]

The flaw in your advice appears to be your blind acceptance of what imbetter says his level at the piano is, as opposed to what you can actually observe in his playing.

Not at all, we are observing just one piece not his whole piano playing.
We say where I live "a dove doesn't make spring" so let me say that "one piece doesn't make the pianist"

This video is an evidence of a piece which has not been studied carefully and is still floppy and not flowing, it isn't an evidence of imbetter lying about his level.

For example just because a piece is "at my level" it doesn't mean that I can play it properly without practicing, memorizing the notes, getting accostumed with the structure and dynamics ...

[jakev2.0]

What if imbetter posts more incompetently played pieces of equal difficulty? Of lesser difficulty?

By your logic it doesn't matter how bad someone's playing is, because you can't judge any pianists true skills by any of their performances! What a lousy critic you'd make!

[danny elfboy]

What if imbetter posts more incompetently played pieces of equal difficulty? Of lesser difficulty?

By your logic it doesn't matter how bad someone's playing is, because you can't judge any pianists true skills by any of their performances! What a lousy critic you'd make!

No you're still not getting it and yet it's so simple.
We have a student here who has posted a piece which he himself admitted is sloppy and needs major polishing.
(needs more practice, more analysis, more conscious of the structure)

Now having a piece that needs to be polished, practiced more, analyzed more, memorized more DOESN'T MEAN the piece is above your level.

The only proof of the pudding here would be imbetter posting something at the same level but admittedly polished, well analyzed and memorized.

[pianowolfi]

Imbetter is 12. Even if he was 14 or 15 like some people say, it does not make any difference after all. If Imbty were my student, I would in the first lesson
1. let him play everything that he plays at the time
2. comment on this (objectively, friendly, constuctively)
3. figure out his goals, aims, dreams, visions, desires, plans, as an ARTIST
4. Then decide together with him what to tackle next (if he and I would come to no common sense about this we probably would decide to let him look for another teacher)
5. since I think that Imbetter is definitely not the type of "normal" student some  teachers (including myself) learned to "deal with" in their pedagogy courses there WILL be the need to figure out something SPECIFIC. He shows talent, he shows a sort of passion for music. He shows a sort of enthousiasm for music. Ok he HAS lied. He has to deal with the consequences. That's his lesson. My lesson as a teacher would be to bring out what is in himself, musically.  And I just feel that there is something. Maybe I am wrong but I distinctly have the feeling that there is MORE. IF he is just a liar and cheater and "gangztah" it would turn out after a few lessons. Mercilessly. But IF i had him as a student AND it would be like I believe to feel that it is, there would be for sure a chance for a very good musical progress.

[jakev2.0]

No you're still not getting it and yet it's so simple.
We have a student here who has posted a piece which he himself admitted is sloppy and needs major polishing.
(needs more practice, more analysis, more conscious of the structure)

Now having a piece that needs to be polished, practiced more, analyzed more, memorized more DOESN'T MEAN the piece is above your level.

The only proof of the pudding here would be imbetter posting something at the same level but admittedly polished, well analyzed and memorized.

What's the weather like on your planet?

[danny elfboy]

What's the weather like on your planet?

I know they say to me to chill ... but I still can't tolerate idiots ... especially those people who resort to idiotic reply because they know they lack any better argument.
I will shut up ... but as usually ... you're tempting me

[olga_janina]

TUNE THE PIANO!!!

[counterpoint]

If I was 12, I didn't even know, who Chopin is, or what he had composed.

(I can't make any comment on imbetter's Ballade #1, because everytime I go to the download page, there is this strange message: "Sorry, the free service in your location is too busy.")

[nicco]

Now having a piece that needs to be polished, practiced more, analyzed more, memorized more DOESN'T MEAN the piece is above your level.

That being said, not every student is able to do that. You need a certain level of maturity to understand how and why to practice, and just because you may understand it doesent mean it will be easy for ibty. Clearly, this piece is way of out his league, and he could spend 6 more months practicing it and it would still sound crappy. He should realize his current potential and work his way up, not start at the top and fall down on his ass, like he did here.

[philippa]

What bearing does the amount of work and effort someone puts into some task have on their ability to perform that task.  My grandma may want to be a heart surgeon really badly. If she reads every textbook she can find, does this effort somehow qualify her to operate on your heart tomorrow? 

That's a ridiculous point- the ammout of work and effort put into something has everything to do with the ability to perform the task. I'm assuming your grandma is too old to aquire the necessary skills to be a heart surgeon. Also reading the textbooks doesn't equate to the necessary training, and operating on your heart 'tomorrow' is a totally unrealistic time frame. Basically your metaphor sucks. Because if someone DOES put the necessary work and effort into something, they DO end up much better qualified to perform the task. Obviously. I think everyone is being horrible, and given some time, hard work and effort this piece could sound great

[jakev2.0]

Well OBVIOUSLY effort can and does lead to skill...but effort alone is no indicator of someone's skills and readiness to undertake a certain task.

[nanabush]

...oh man ur piano needs a good tunin :p