Greatest Virtuoso for the Piano back in Classical and Romantic Periods

[bachapprentice]

I think Beethoven was the greatest.

[franz_]

For piano? Not at all.
For piano it must be Chopin, Liszt or Rachmaninoff.

[desordre]

 Dear Mr. Apprentice:
 Excuse me, but what a pointless thread.
 Best!
 

[bachapprentice]

Dear Mr. Apprentice:
 Excuse me, but what a pointless thread.
 Best!
 

If people have nothing nice to say they should just be quiet.

[Etude]

This is even better than that thread someone made once about what the hardest piece ever written is.

[desordre]

 Dear Mr. Apprentice:

If people have nothing nice to say they should just be quiet.

Excuse me again. Your original thread title was "Greatest composer for the piano", That was something so pointless and absurd that yourself changed the title to "Greatest Virtuoso for the Piano back in Classical and Romantic Periods". As far as I can notice, you did agree with me, so I had something very important to say, apparently.
 By the way, your refreshed thread is far more interesting, but - given the fact that are no recordings available - it will be quite difficult to answer that.

I think Beethoven was the greatest.

Furthermore, your very answer is the same to both. Although I can respect your opinion, I find that is strange, because Beethoven - despite his early years - was never a pianist, so I think it's quite harsh to him receive this title.

 Best wishes!

[pita bread]

well someone seems to have an a-hole complex...

[ail]

 Furthermore, your very answer is the same to both. Although I can respect your opinion, I find that is strange, because Beethoven - despite his early years - was never a pianist, so I think it's quite harsh to him receive this title.

 Best wishes!

Beethoven was never what?! Mind, do check your facts. Piano was his instrument, and his father tried to make of him a prodicy child a la Mozart playing the piano. In his early years, he was best known for being a pianist in Viena than a composer and to the end of his life he stressed the pianos to the most leading to many improvements in the building of the instrument. That's because he actually played them. And yes, at his time, he was considered quite the virtuoso. Of course others came later, but he belongs to the classical period, Liszt, Chopin and Rach do not.

Alex

[bachapprentice]

Dear Mr. Apprentice: Excuse me again. Your original thread title was "Greatest composer for the piano", That was something so pointless and absurd that yourself changed the title to "Greatest Virtuoso for the Piano back in Classical and Romantic Periods". As far as I can notice, you did agree with me, so I had something very important to say, apparently.
 By the way, your refreshed thread is far more interesting, but - given the fact that are no recordings available - it will be quite difficult to answer that.
 Furthermore, your very answer is the same to both. Although I can respect your opinion, I find that is strange, because Beethoven - despite his early years - was never a pianist, so I think it's quite harsh to him receive this title.

 Best wishes!

I did not change it because of you I wanted to rephrase it better so you would understand it better. And yes my answer is still the same , Beethoven.

I think you should do your research and get the facts straight before you make comments like that and listen to his Piano Sonatas while youre at it.

[desordre]

 Dear Ail

Beethoven was never what?! Mind, do check your facts. Piano was his instrument, and his father tried to make of him a prodicy child a la Mozart playing the piano. In his early years, he was best known for being a pianist in Viena than a composer and to the end of his life he stressed the pianos to the most leading to many improvements in the building of the instrument. That's because he actually played them. And yes, at his time, he was considered quite the virtuoso. Of course others came later, but he belongs to the classical period, Liszt, Chopin and Rach do not.
Alex

First, read again my post, please. I don't say that Beethoven was never a pianist. As I wrote, and you confirm, in his early years he had a career as a pianist, but we all know that he had to quit that due to his deafness. Do you know that, right? So, my opinion basically relies in the fact that he is not part of music history as a piano virtuoso, but as a piano composer. By the way, remember the fact that he was - in his performer years - contemporary to several other pianists that probably were at least as good as he was. Just to quote some names: Muzio Clementi, Jan Dussek, Vaclav Tomasek and (probably the leading name) Johann Nepomuk Hummel.
 Yes, I agree that he was very close to some developments in piano making and technique, but I must emphasize that he was then not a profesional pianist anymore. Think of him as someone who contributed very much to our instrument is very true, but carrying this too much far is a mistake.
 You said that at his time he was considered "quite the virtuoso". Unless you are talking about his pre-1800 years, or I did miss something, your statement just reinforce my point of view. Of course, it's only mine and you don't have nor must agree with me.
 Best wishes!

[desordre]

 Dear Apprentice:
 Let's procede by parts...

I did not change it because of you I wanted to rephrase it better so you would understand it better.
(...)

  Yes, I know that you didn't change the topic's name because of me. But you did, correct? Then, please... Greatest composer and greatest virtuoso are not the same thing, so that's a brand new topic, not a "rephrase" as you wrote.

(...)
And yes my answer is still the same , Beethoven.
(...)

OK. As I wrote before, if that's your opinion, I do respect it sincerely.

(...)
I think you should do your research and get the facts straight before you make comments like that and listen to his Piano Sonatas while youre at it.

What should I say? Do you want to discuss Beethoven? Do you want to share some facts and background about him? I'm up to anything, but I would highly apreciate some words of you about your opinion: why do you think Beethoven is the greatest piano composer of all times, and the greatest virtuoso of the piano in both centuries?
 
 I wrote above that your original topic was pointless. I said that because it's very unlikely to go beyond someone's taste to answer that. How do we judge such a question? What scientific approach can we use? What is the "measure" to that? It's was nothing personal, but I think you took so, saying to me to shut up. That's was rude, boy.
 About your "rephrase", I must insist in the same way: what is your argument to your choice? Did you actually listen to Beethoven playing? C'mon, it's harsh to argue about pianists that have their production well recorded. Beyond the personal "I like/dislike", or even the semi-precise "s/he do this/that way", we have several metodological problems when faced with such a question.

 Finally, if your intention was just to share affective impressions with your mates, please excuse me for the fact that I took you seriously.
 Best wishes!

[desordre]

 Dear Apprentice:
 Another question arise. When you did rename the topic, you said it was just to some people (like me) could understand it better. So, just for the sake of curiosity, there is no piano music after the end of the 19th century? If the greatest piano composer of all times (first thread name) is the greatest virtuoso of the 18th/19th century (second one), I wonder what happened to Debussy, Bartok, Prokofiev, Messiaen, Ligeti and all those poor guys...
 Just kidding! Don't get mad with me.
 Best!
 

[dnephi]

Beethoven was the great virtuoso of his day. Liszt of his.  Bach of his.  Coincidences?

I think not. 

Besides, Busoni called these the great pillars of the literature.

[jacobwynn]

Piano.

Greatest composers? Probably Beethoven and Chopin.

Greatest virtuosos?  Who knows? But a guess might be Liszt.

I also adore Rachmaninov for either, but this is very subjective.

[sevencircles]

Greatest virtuosos?  Who knows? But a guess might be Liszt.

"Liszt himself said that Alkan had the greatest technique he ever seen"

I believe that Saint-Saens once stunned liszt when he learned one of Liszt´s hardest pieces almost noteperfect after hearing it only once.

Liszt became a huge fan of Saint-Saens after that incident.

[jas]

"Liszt himself said that Alkan had the greatest technique he ever seen"

But Liszt was often quite altruistic if he really respected another composer, plus Alkan was never any real competition for Liszt since he suffered badly from stage fright. And in Liszt's position he could afford to be benevolent.

[mephisto]

"Liszt himself said that Alkan had the greatest technique he ever seen"

Alkan went home and started to cry when he heard Liszt play.

[sevencircles]

I have read a lot about the improvisation skills of the greatest virtuosos of the old days

Mozart, Beethoven and perhaps even more Chopin were all great improvisers.

Some reports indicated that Chopin´s improvisations were often more interesting to listen to then his written works.

He often played in a tonal fashion but with one "outside" note that created tension so to speak.

[opus10no2]

Alkan went home and started to cry when he heard Liszt play.

haha True, but then da KAN got his revenge by maxxin out his girthy tech.

Remember Alkan was 2 years younger too. I really believe Alkan must have had incredible technique, he really was one of the greatest piano writers of the 19th century.

[thalbergmad]

Tausig, possibly

[zheer]

  Rahaminoff.

[arensky]

Liszt, probably.

[elevateme_returns]

rachmaninov definitely!! has anyone heard his recordings? incredible

[zheer]

has anyone heard his recordings? incredible

 Of course, incredible both as a pianist and composer.

[arensky]

rachmaninov definitely!! has anyone heard his recordings? incredible

Yes, but have you heard Liszt's? 

And while Rachmaninov was a romantic composer, his playing does not have many of the characteristics and mannerisms of romantic era pianism (lots of rubato and pedal, rhythmic "distortion" and non-adherence to the printed score to name just a few). I think Vladimir de Pachmann is probably the oldest romantic style pianist of whom we have recordings. Not disputing your estimation of Rachmaninov but he was a pretty "straight" interpreter compared to pianists a bit older than him, as many reviews of his concerts show. Hoffman was also considered a cold modernist in their heyday ninety years ago.

No one has yet mentioned Busoni, he is obviously in the running, although perhaps he belongs in Hoffman/Rachmaninov category. And Teresa Carreno was no slacker, from what I've read.

[jakev2.0]

I would say that, without a doubt, Rachmaninov is one of the greatest pianists recorded. He's certainly within my top 5.

Yes, but have you heard Liszt's? 

And while Rachmaninov was a romantic composer, his playing does not have many of the characteristics and mannerisms of romantic era pianism (lots of rubato and pedal, rhythmic "distortion" and non-adherence to the printed score to name just a few).

Rachmaninov's style was indeed modern, but sentimental he was not. Although his rhythm was generally in "good taste" there is nothing ordinary about his playing. In my estimation, his playing of Carnaval, Chopin's B-Flat Minor Sonata, Beethoven C minor Variations, Liszt Gnomenreigen, transcription of Bach 3rd Violin Partita etc. are absolute gems of the catalog that ultimately defy comparison to the playing of any other pianist who has recorded them. 

I think Vladimir de Pachmann is probably the oldest romantic style pianist of whom we have recordings. Not disputing your estimation of Rachmaninov but he was a pretty "straight" interpreter compared to pianists a bit older than him, as many reviews of his concerts show. Hoffman was also considered a cold modernist in their heyday ninety years ago.

A lot of romantic era pianists churned out some pretty grotesque and appalling recordings (Mark Hambourg's Liszt rhapsodies, anyone? ) Speaking of Hambourg, I think HE was the one who famously called Hofmann a "cold" pianist. Pretty ballsy thing for a clown like Hambourg to level against a giant like Hofmann. Rachmaninov, Godowsky, Hofmann, Rosenthal, Friedman, Lhevinne (i.e., the people who mattered), etc all had more or less mutual respect for each other's playing. Sometimes you have to think about where criticism and praise is coming from to assess its validity.

No one has yet mentioned Busoni, he is obviously in the running, although perhaps he belongs in Hoffman/Rachmaninov category. And Teresa Carreno was no slacker, from what I've read.

From the few recordings of Busoni we have, we know that he was indeed a great pianist with a great non-legato touch. However, too few recordings.

[arensky]

I would say that, without a doubt, Rachmaninov is one of the greatest pianists recorded. He's certainly within my top 5.


Rachmaninov's style was indeed modern, but sentimental he was not. Although his rhythm was generally in "good taste" there is nothing ordinary about his playing. In my estimation, his playing of Carnaval, Chopin's B-Flat Minor Sonata, Beethoven C minor Variations, Liszt Gnomenreigen, transcription of Bach 3rd Violin Partita etc. are absolute gems of the catalog that ultimately defy comparison to the playing of any other pianist who has recorded them.

Absolutely. And pretty much everything else he ever recorded.

A lot of romantic era pianists churned out some pretty grotesque and appalling recordings (Mark Hambourg's Liszt rhapsodies, anyone? ) Speaking of Hambourg, I think HE was the one who famously called Hofmann a "cold" pianist. Pretty ballsy thing for a clown like Hambourg to level against a giant like Hofmann. Rachmaninov, Godowsky, Hofmann, Rosenthal, Friedman, Lhevinne (i.e., the people who mattered), etc all had more or less mutual respect for each other's playing. Sometimes you have to think about where criticism and praise is coming from to assess its validity.

Heh, I'll listen to that Hambourg 14th Rhapsody later on and report back. Haven't heard that in a long time, but I remember liking it. I also have enjoyed some of Pachmann's recordings, he was a true and sincere individualist, if a bit bizarre.

It's true what you say about the origin of criticism and praise, the top cats generally don't criticize each other too much (the Horowitz/Rubinstein feud is a big exception), although they are very competitive, without a doubt. 

[jakev2.0]

You must hear Hambourg's 6th Rhapsody. 

[arensky]

You must hear Hambourg's 6th Rhapsody. 

Now I have. 

Sounds like he's drunk, old or both. He totally ***** the dog on a lot of this, but then there will be something extraordinary. The filligree cadenzas, the sheets of sound  the beautiful tone, the melodic phrasing and the upbeat and earnest groove of his playing. Yeah he screws a lot of it up but this is certainly one of the most interesting piano recordings I've heard lately, thanks for sharing it  .

I wouldn't call him a clown but his accuracy leaves a bit to be desired for sure, although he obviously has an excellent technique. What I like is that his playing has a presence and a real personality lacking in many contemporary pianists. Different times, different tastes, different values.

[klavierkonzerte]

"Liszt himself said that Alkan had the greatest technique he ever seen"

I believe that Saint-Saens once stunned liszt when he learned one of Liszt´s hardest pieces almost noteperfect after hearing it only once.

liszt  also said that bizet is the best pianist that he ever seen
and also heald carl filtsch, a student of chopin, in very high esteem
unfortunatly he died at 15

kullak claimd that dreyschok is a greater pianist than liszt.

clara schumann was also one of the super virtuosos of th 19th century and maybe she's THE super virtuoso of all 19th century pianists even paganini was very impressed with her.

[sevencircles]

liszt  also said that bizet is the best pianist that he ever seen

Best pianist and pianist with "most perfected technique" are two different things.

[bachapprentice]

liszt  also said that bizet is the best pianist that he ever seen
and also heald carl filtsch, a student of chopin, in very high esteem
unfortunatly he died at 15

kullak claimd that dreyschok is a greater pianist than liszt.

clara schumann was also one of the super virtuosos of th 19th century and maybe she's THE super virtuoso of all 19th century pianists even paganini was very impressed with her.

I did some research about Alexander Dreyschock and they say he was amazing on the piano. Dreyschock's left-hand was renowned, most famous techical stunt was to play the left-hand arpeggios of Chopin's Revolutionary Étude in octaves. Observers of the time report that he played it in correct tempo. Also he caused a sensation with prodigious execution of thirds, sixths, and octaves, plus other tricks. 

I never heard him until today.  You learn something new every day.  I was looking fo some cd's but there is not much out there.  Do you know were I could find his works?

[mephisto]

I never heard him until today.  You learn something new every day.  I was looking fo some cd's but there is not much out there.  Do you know were I could find his works?

Yes! He was not the greatest composer of all time or anything, but he did compose a piano concert - like most pianist back than - wich I haven't heard. But it most likely a fun piece wich will sound impressive for someone looking for a good old romantic show-off piano concerto. And we all love those, don't we

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/ searc for Dreyschock under composers.

[thalbergmad]

But it most likely a fun piece wich wil sound impressive for someone looking for a good old romatinc show-off piano concerto.

Good description for someone who has not heard it.

I do have another disk of his works somewhere, but the Concerto is the best work of his that i have heard.

His left hand version of God Save the Queen might be of interest to someone that wants to cripple themselves.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

His left hand version of God Save the Queen might be of interest to someone that wants to cripple themselves.

Thal

His study, L'Inquietude, is also fairly interesting (and difficult).

[thalbergmad]

It is indeed old chap.

I think you should add it to your rep.

How many other pianists are playing Pixis and Dreyschock?.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

For many reasons it is a shame that nobody plays the likes of Dreyschock. Not least of which being that it falsely colours our attitudes to great pianists of the past if there are so few performances of Dreyschock, Herz, Thalberg, etc that the vast majority of music listeners are unaware of their existence. They were important virtuosi who, in their own way, contributed fundamentally to the development of piano technique as we now know it.

[bachapprentice]

For many reasons it is a shame that nobody plays the likes of Dreyschock. Not least of which being that it falsely colours our attitudes to great pianists of the past if there are so few performances of Dreyschock, Herz, Thalberg, etc that the vast majority of music listeners are unaware of their existence. They were important virtuosi who, in their own way, contributed fundamentally to the development of piano technique as we now know it.

I just watched Valentina Lisitsa play Thalberg and she is one of the greatest pianists of our time, if not the greatest.  She plays the most difficult pieces ever composed.

[jakev2.0]

WRONG.

[thalbergmad]

How charmingly put

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Actually, I've seen that Lisitsa video (Rossini-Thalberg), and in this case I thought she played it rather nicely (shame that it is only extracts from the piece). She didn't brutalize it in the way she does with quite a lot of other music. I wouldn't say I'm a big fan of hers, however.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I notice that no-one other than Thal has even mentioned Tausig. He's surely one of the number one options if you're looking for rivals to Liszt. Within the Liszt contemporaries, Henselt is another name that deserves mention, even if his public performances were severely limited by acute stage-fright.

[thalbergmad]

I am gonna mention Henselt as well.

But perhaps you need to give more than 1 concert every 5 years to be considered.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I love the story of Henselt being recognized by the band in a cafe: "He leapt up with a look of sheer terror on his face and exited at high speed through the kitchen".

[dnephi]

As Tausig said, No Mortal can compete with Liszt.  He dwells on solitary height.

That statement is echoed in nearly every pianist who heard him perform.

[elevateme_returns]

Yes, but have you heard Liszt's? 

the point is, how can we judge who was the best without any recordings? we can only judge as far back as the earliest recordings. i think i have some recordings of brahms somewhere

[thalbergmad]

Indeed, but it so bad, one could not make a judgement.

Although we cannot listen to Liszt himself, i wonder if we can gain a slight insight by listening to some of his pupils. Rosenthal modelled himself on Liszt, so perhaps when we listen to him, we are getting an idea how Liszt may have sounded.

Perhaps also, when we listen to plante, we might hear something of Chopin.

Only a possibility i guess.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

We can't listen to Liszt, etc, but we do have eloquent testimony from great musical minds of the past. Unfortunately with a lot of pianists such as Rosenthal, they only got round to recording when well past their prime. Was it not said of Rosenthal "Better than Liszt in certain aspects of mechanisme"? I forget the exact quote and source, but I'm sure it was by a Liszt pupil of note.

(edit: it was Friedheim)

I've heard it said that von Sauer's recordings of the Liszt concerti were a decent representation of what Liszt was looking for, musically speaking.

[klavierkonzerte]

liszt once played behinde curtains to prove to the audience that he can play exactly like chopin does, he succeded

he challenged thalberg in a duel where he was named the first pianist in the world

he asked medelssohn to  improvise, ofcource so that he would improvice after him and prove that he's better, well he couldn't do that because after mendelssoh improvised liszt was left astonished by mendelssohn artistry and virtuosity.

so mendelssohn might be the greatest

[klavierkonzerte]

one more thing liszt couldn't play double thirds as fast as henri herz.