What characteristics come "naturally" to humanity ?

[m1469]

And, I mean this regardless of nationality, regardless of culture -- regardless of individuality.  In your opinion, of course .

[thalbergmad]

You are very "deep" lately.

[m1469]

Oh, thanks for talking to me  .

[opus10no2]

Selfishness is one, kindness is an illusion, a social mechanism 

[m1469]

Selfishness is one, kindness is an illusion, a social mechanism 

Actually, this is an interesting point.  So, do you believe that social needs are "natural" to humanity ?  From reading your posts, I kind of think that you do, and I agree, too.  But, then, why would the outgrowths/ramifications of our own social needs not also be natural ?

One could even go so far as to say that selfishness causes the need for socialization -- which may (or may not) cause something such as kindness (at least according to some theories out there ) -- so, in fact, selfishness is perhaps a cause of kindness ?  And if kindness is an illusion, perhaps then, it's more approrpriate to say that selfishness is the cause of illusion ?

*just thinking* 

[rach n bach]

Well, society seems to be based on people suppressing thier natural urges... such as rape, murder, theft, etc.  Seems to be the basis of "civilized" nations, not doing whatever comes naturally, to a certian extent anyhow.

[m1469]

Yes, of course.  I have heard that and seem to often experience it on some level.  But, what, exactly, makes one "urge" more natural than another ?  How do "we" determine that ?  Is it simply because we have them ?  And they can seem "strong" ?  hee hee.

It seems to me that if in the "beginning" society and individuals just followed these urges, and it's natural for mankind to do these things, then we would never have "evolved" beyond it -- we simply would not have had the capacity.  By that same line of thinking, if we are just us as mankind, there is also not a single "outter influence" to change our ways from what is exactly natural to us.  Furthermore, if it's natural for the strong to pick off the weak (in line with the concept of "evolution" and the concept of "survival of the fittest"), then wouldn't a social-evolution based on natural urges -- over many years -- have some kind of primordial merit ?  Even if it's "just" mental ?

So, if we are only capable in a natural sense of things like selfishness and what we term as "unkindness" -- how did we ever develop things in ourselves like social awareness that is not natural ?   It seems that according to many of the theories stated, a social awareness and the ramifications that come along with it, are, in fact, entirely natural.

[opus10no2]

Actually, this is an interesting point.  So, do you believe that social needs are "natural" to humanity ?  From reading your posts, I kind of think that you do, and I agree, too.  But, then, why would the outgrowths/ramifications of our own social needs not also be natural ?

One could even go so far as to say that selfishness causes the need for socialization -- which may (or may not) cause something such as kindness (at least according to some theories out there ) -- so, in fact, selfishness is perhaps a cause of kindness ?  And if kindness is an illusion, perhaps then, it's more approrpriate to say that selfishness is the cause of illusion ?

*just thinking* 

Yes, that's what I mean, and I have to point out that selfishness is absolutely a good thing.

It's interesting, human being are by FAR the most social animals, and if you observe other relatively social animals out there - they have similar mechanisms, only more simplistic and immediately apparent.
Grooming, bonding, they do it for themself, but their desire to fit into the scheme benifits the whole species.

So, if human being have an innate *purpose*, that purpose is inextricably of a social nature - human being belong with other human beings and the greatness we achieve as a whole is what defines our species.

Well, society seems to be based on people suppressing thier natural urges... such as rape, murder, theft, etc. Seems to be the basis of "civilized" nations, not doing whatever comes naturally, to a certian extent anyhow.

Well..yes, rape , murder and theft are only 'bad' because of their social consequences..or are they.

Think of a world with just you, and an annoying attractive woman who has many riches and keeps them to herself.

You could rape her, you could steal from her, and you could also finally kill her because she is so annoying, there would be no terrible consequences other than in your own conscience..


The three main basic urges are to reproduce/have sex , have food/water, and territory/shelter.

In a society we have evolved to work with eachother and not against eachother to fulfill these basic desires, aswell as the desire to socialise itself!

[m1469]

there would be no terrible consequences other than in your own conscience..

 and don't forget, you would be utterly and completely alone with it

[pianistimo]

i think to say humans have 'animal' instincts is a cop-out.  the reason is that it implies that we have no conscience or morality to stand by.  and, if a rape or something occurs and there is no consequence - then who is to stop this from happening again and again.  that is what happens in countries where dictatorships thrive.  one person decides the fate of millions.  this is evil.

i think there is evil and good - and that what comes naturally to humans is #1 self.  but, that is why Jesus Christ died.  to show us how to empty ourselves and fill our minds with the Holy Spirit.  it is the only thing that saves us from our vainness and empty thoughts.  there are no holy thoughts in our heads usually.  i mean - when is the last time you heard someone contmplating how great God is?  usually people don't talk about anything but themselves or what they are interested in or doing.

to think outside of oneself - means to first become humble and consider others first.  for some - they feel that this does not concern God - but merely an attitude of service.  perhaps many have this attitude much more than Christians.  but, the thing is - a Christian does it all for the glory of God.  not for themselves.  they don't take any credit.  that is the way the composer Bach thought.  to make music for the glory of God.  he didn't realize that God would turn it aroiund and also cause his name to have fame and appreciation also.

[opus10no2]

and don't forget, you would be utterly and completely alone with it

That too, maybe it would be best to tie her up and rape her periodically?

OR try to actually get along! and have consented sex  


Anyway, I'm interested in the fundamental differences between males and females, and those differences have to have came about as a matter of evolutionary function.

Don't like to generalise, but the basic desire to have sex and reproduce is coupled with the desire to ensure a safe and stimulating environment for bringing up the potential child.

I'm also interested in those people who seem to have no interest in having children, could this be percieved as a flaw? does it do anything for the species? do they know they have crappy genes and innately know not to spread them?  

Homosexuals too, obviously they cannot reproduce and so could be considered a flaw, or is there a sophisticated evolutionary mechanism in place? Homosexuality occurs just to keep the numbers down?  

i think to say humans have 'animal' instincts is a cop-out. the reason is that it implies that we have no conscience or morality to stand by. and, if a rape or something occurs and there is no consequence - then who is to stop this from happening again and again.

Morality and conscience is learnt, the laws are defined by the society we're brought up in.

The only thing the majority of us are born with is a capacity to fit into and understand the social construct we inhabit.

Humans do have animal instincts, coupled with social instincts that work in harmony with the animal instincts to ensure social success.

[m1469]

That too, maybe it would be best to tie her up and rape her periodically?

what a powerful man he must be 

[pianistimo]

i'm no sex therapist -but stevie - don't you think you have 'issues.'  i mean - was your mother really mean to you or something?  or did she ignore you and your needs.  what motivates you to want to speak of rape as something you would enjoy? 

besides there are many women who love sex and wouldn't need to be 'raped.'  they just get there fast.  they don't need so much forplay.  why wouldn't you just go out and find and date a woman who likes fast sex?  much easier and less remorse.  especially if she liked it. then, you wouldn't have to kill her.

or would you.  what pleasure does one get from killing someone (who may or may not be weaker than them?)

did you ever see that news clip where a woman has an attempted rapist attmept something and she stabs him with a pen. 

as i see it - if you can meet your needs peaceably - why do it with force?  i just don't understand.  do you like to be in control?  what makes you need control? 

if you find what i say absurd - i find what you say much more absurd.  i'm talking about household cleansers and you change the topic to hard sex.  don't people see and get enough of that on tv?  i mean - sex, kill the person, dump them in the lake.  everyone knows by now - 'the body is in the lake.'  but, what woman is going to do this to a man?  so what fear do men have of women that they must kill and dispose them?

the worst a woman can and does (maybe one every ten years) is to completely chop off his privates.  now, what would motivate a woman to do this?  perhaps she is a woman that doesn't like sex.  now, wouldn't you think from a man's perspective that she should have just said something - or married or dated someone with a similar point of view.  if they are homosexuals - then they would get along.  why do they look for someone who WILL irritate them and then - chop chop.  'here, take this thing home with you.'  i suppose a woman might feel a sense of remorse - later - but asm1469said - it would be home alone - sort of remembering the high pitched screaming and wishing that there could have been another way. 

[opus10no2]

what a powerful man he must be 

Well, of course I would never resort to such a thing, I am irresistable to women anyway, no?


pianistimo..I speak about rape without emotional weight because of it's context in this thread..

Yes, I am aware that women love sex. I am not promiscuous and if you didn't know already, I'm a virgin. So whatever thoughts I have about 'fast sex', I wouldn't want my first time to be like that.

[gilad]

Everything that people do, comes naturally.

[opus10no2]

Everything that people do, comes naturally.

Yes, and so even the things we do in science and technology, genetic modification, the 'playing god' we may do....is natural, actually....A natural consequence of our nature and our natural environment.

[bench warmer]

Artificial insemination is Not natural....by definition!

[opus10no2]

'existing in or produced by nature; not artificial or imitation'

Depends how you define natural, because man is namtural, and therefore man-made things are a consequence of nature.

[zheer]

    The human race has obviously evolved over the years, the very first human had almost the exact same characteristics of non human. These characteristics include the need for food water shelter  fornication and Art. This is still true today though this natural process has changed significantly as attitude of one human to another has changed significantly . We have learnt from the past the humanity has always been in conflict, those that brought us to the age of enlightenment , and those who fought for Civilization ( Roman empire ). The question of morality was also of significance as the human population was growing. To be continued.......

[pianowolfi]

And, I mean this regardless of nationality, regardless of culture -- regardless of individuality.  In your opinion, of course .

Perception and thinking. I think. 

[prometheus]

Selfishness is one, kindness is an illusion, a social mechanism 

Selfishness is as much a mechanism for survival, just like social behavior is.


Anyway, so called humane behavior, or inhumane treatment; what's so human or inhuman about it?

[zheer]

Selfishness is as much a mechanism for survival, just like social behavior is.

   True, though the persons gender also plays a role in defining what is and what is not natural human behaviour.

[Bob]

Selfishness is one, kindness is an illusion, a social mechanism

Wasn't there just something in the news about how helpfulness is engrained in people?  Some study about genes or something?

[opus10no2]

Didn't see it, but there would be good cause to believe it.

Also there is good cause to assume that not everyone is equally endowed with this gene, and some may find themselves to be social misfits.

[pianistimo]

where does helpfulness reside, then?  i suppose they could take that portion out and see if the person was still helpful.  this gives scientists great fun.  taking out more and more portions of people's brains.