Repeats

[phil13]

When you perform a classical sonata with a repeat of the development and recapitulaton in addition to the exposition, do you play that repeat? Or not?

In either case, why?

Phil

[exigence]

I don't only because I hate to play repeats.

But that's my non-performing $.02, worth the price of admission.

[kd]

This is probably not going to be a theoretically well-grounded answer, but...

In my performances everything depends on how long the movement is with the second repeat and how long without, and how it corresponds to the entire program I have at the moment. For example, I see no problem in taking both repeats in most Mozart sonatas, I never skip them when I play K 545 or even K 457, because this is just a matter of 1 or 2 minutes at most (and theres sonatas aren't very hard and don't require a lot of energy and endurance). Perhaps this would be an issue in K 333 or K 533, but apparently not in many others sonatas by Mozart.

I also apply this rule to Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 1 (this is good for the 1st movement, and not so good for the 4st - here both time and endurance issues, but some consistency is necessary, so usually I take both repeats). The same would probably work well for Op. 10 No. 2, Op. 78, Op. 79. But in Op. 2 No. 2 I would have to think a bit, with the second repeat the whole movement lasts over 10 minutes. I would play both repeats for a studio recording (if I'll ever make one ), but not necessarily on a recital.

The same problem arises in Haydn, Hob XVI/49 (E flat major), 50 (C major, although here skipping the second repeat in the 1st movement makes the whole sonata partially inconsistent, because you have the 3rd movement where there are both repeats and there are no repeat signs - everything is repeated in the score and you cannot just ignore it), and especially 52 (E flat major; the 1st movement with both repeats would be over 13 minutes long).

Of course, I might skip repeats in Beethoven Op. 2 No. 1 if have a 40-minute long recital and I want to play a lot of different pieces, thus saving 5 minutes. This means that I do not have any constant rule assigned to every sonata I play which I obey without any exceptions.

Do you refer to some specific sonatas or just ask a general question?

[jabbz]

I always without fail observe repeats, if people are at a recital they want to hear you play, and even if they don't, it's good practise! 

[clavicembalisticum]

You just choose sonatas without repeats. Really, one of the most bothersome figures of the form is the use of repeats.

Yes I am dead serious.

[phil13]

You just choose sonatas without repeats. Really, one of the most bothersome figures of the form is the use of repeats.

Yes I am dead serious.

That kind of rules out everything Mozart and Haydn wrote, as well as most of Beethoven.

Do you refer to some specific sonatas or just ask a general question?

Technically, no, it's a general question, but the idea was brought up by my learning of the Haydn Sonata in B minor. Both the 1st and 3rd mvts. have the development and recap repeated, and I am rather unsure about whether I want to play the 2nd repeats or not- especially the 3rd mvt.

Phil

[invictious]

For some pieces, no. For some, yes. It really depends if I personally feel it is needed or not.
Take Beethoven for example. Sonata op.2 no.1, two repeats, but not needed imo.


I usually add repeats if I'm under the time limit, and I omit repeats if I'm over the time limit...that's one practical use.

[kd]

Technically, no, it's a general question, but the idea was brought up by my learning of the Haydn Sonata in B minor. Both the 1st and 3rd mvts. have the development and recap repeated, and I am rather unsure about whether I want to play the 2nd repeats or not- especially the 3rd mvt.

I would say play the 2nd repeat, especially if you want make a real Presto out of the movement. The repeat gives better sense of a continuous flow. I played all the repeats in this sonata, though I haven't brought the final movement to the speed I would really like, but I suppose I would still keep the repeats at a faster tempo.

The sonata isn't very long after all, so no one can complain that the repeating consumes too much time.

Could you specify your tempi for the movements?

Anyway I would say either do both repeats or just one repeat in both movemets. But why is it you have more doubts about the 3rd movement than the 1st, it is rather the 1st that is made much longer by observing both repeats?

And what did you do with other sonatas where an application of the second repeat was possible?

My point is that when I play a piece I like, I see nothing wrong in repeating nice passages twice (save for time limits one may have in recitals, of course) if it does make sense structurally, which is probably the main idea of all Classical repeats. In Mozart and Haydn it almost always does. After all sonatas don't usually serve purely technical purposes; I suppose you should be able to choose what you like and want to play (at an appropriate technical level). This means that if I didn't like a sonata, I wouldn't care about whether to repeat or not, I just wouldn't play it aiit all!

For some pieces, no. For some, yes. It really depends if I personally feel it is needed or not.
Take Beethoven for example. Sonata op.2 no.1, two repeats, but not needed imo.

OK, actually with Beethoven the matter is not so easy. For example, I know no good explanation why is there no second repeat in Op. 14 No. 2 or Op. 22, though structurally they are very similar to Op. 2 Nos. 1 and 2 or Op. 10 No. 2 where there are second repeats. On the other hand, you have two repeats in Op. 79, even though there is a coda afterwards. I wonder if there's been made some investigation why these differences occur. Anyway, it isn't as easy as in Mozart and Haydn, where you can just play two repeats everywhere (which I do, except possibly for Haydn 50 and 52 if I'll learn them one day) or one repeat everywhere and in either case everything is fine.

I usually add repeats if I'm under the time limit, and I omit repeats if I'm over the time limit...that's one practical use.

Good idea. Just count time needed for playing without second repeat, for playing with and see which fits better the rest of your concert program. For me, it works very well.

[mikey6]

In recital, I always play exposition repeats.  I don't like recap repeats coz it gives the ending away, sounds lame, but that's how I feel.  in k576 for example, he doesn't write a repeat sign at the end.  This be the case with most of the Classics.
With Beethoven, I would observe all his repeats, since he broke away from the classical mould in his later sonatas, I think ht only wrote what he wanted, not what conformed to 'tradition'.

[clavicembalisticum]

That kind of rules out everything Mozart and Haydn wrote, as well as most of Beethoven.

Indeed they do. And as you see the block is concentrated on a very specific period I am not that fond of them; it is matter of personal taste. Seriously, honestly, I find nothing exceptional, for example, about their almost obsessive use of repeats when the phrasing has been completed. There is an extreme rigidity of the form in the general and the specific in most of the works by these composers, and it is understandable within the boundaries of german formalism. Yes, I am aware of the examples breaking that canon as well, but it is the entire mentality I no longer "abide" to.

That said, it does not mean that if somebody finds lucrative to be a Beethoven expert would not be admirable. There are technical aspects that are simply astounding in pieces with and without "repeats". It is just that I do not particularly enjoy the sheer majority of the works by the aforementioned one(s). Strange that this is concentrated to their writing for the piano and not on their other works.

Yet, and given the fact that "repeats" and other figurative elements whether we like them or not do exist, they must always be performed because that is the way the composer intended to have the work performed; this does not mean that you cannot take liberties with the music, it only means that you should not rewrite it in a completely different way.

I go the easy way; If there is something I do not like anymore I will just not go after it; so much music, so little time.

[mephisto]

Just one question:

Do you not like the sonatas by Beethoven?

[richard black]

Apparently Brahms left out a repeat in one of his own works (maybe a symphony, actually) in a performance he directed some time after the work was written: when asked why, he explained that as the work was now getting familiar to the public he felt the repeat was no longer necessary.

[iumonito]

If the repeats are the composer's how can you honestly skip them.  The reference to Brahms is not insignificant, as novelty is an important factor, but formal balance dictates that if the composer puts a repeat sign, it is to be observed.

It makes a big difference, as playing a phrase twice, the second time it never sounds the same.  In smaller context this becomes even more obvious, like in one of the G major sonatas of Haydn (sorry, no Hob numbers handy), or in Mozart's K. 331. The places where the masters have elected not to direct a repeat are also very telling: Appasionata, for example.

I know in competitions sometimes players are directed to omit repeats.  IMO, you might as well omit a movement (in fact, playing single movements, I think, is less of a sin than omitting repeats).

Does anyone know the performace practice regarding repeats in a Da Capo?  I understand those are to be omitted unless the composer directs otherwise.

[dnephi]

In my opinion, in the standard classical style (IE, mature Mozart+Haydn, early Beethoven), it's good.  You need a good, solid understanding of the opening material to understand the genius and power of the development.

[ramseytheii]

Just one question:

Do you not like the sonatas by Beethoven?

This reminds me of the philosophy of Ervin Nyregihazi:
"If you like it, repeat it."

Walter Ramsey

[clavicembalisticum]

Just one question:

Do you not like the sonatas by Beethoven?

Just because many people like them it does not mean that all people have to like them. The latter works are very good, but it is not like they are giving me any more excitement than any given well composed piece. Matter of taste, I don't feel at home, musically that is, with the whole period.

[musicus15]

Wouldn't that eliminate a lot of great music from your repertoire?

You just choose sonatas without repeats. Really, one of the most bothersome figures of the form is the use of repeats.

Yes I am dead serious.

[musicus15]

And Richter said that not playing all the repeats means the player does not sufficiently love that music.

This reminds me of the philosophy of Ervin Nyregihazi:
"If you like it, repeat it."

Walter Ramsey

[anacrusis]

This is a 14 year old thread, so I think the people you are replying to are long gone :/