\"\"
Piano Forum logo

etudes op. 10&25 (Read 9444 times)

Offline christiaan

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
etudes op. 10&25
« on: June 05, 2007, 09:32:24 AM »
If you have mastered Chopin`s Etude op. 25 no. 1,  what is the next etude to start with? Please help. Any of the op. 10 or 25 are welkom.

O, and what is a good Liszt Transendental Etude to start with?

Sheet music to download and print: Transcendental Etudes by Liszt



Sheet music to download and print: Etudes by Chopin



Offline elevateme_returns

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 757
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #1 on: June 05, 2007, 10:43:45 AM »
godowsky-chopin op 25 no1, version 2 ("like four hands"). orgasmic & super impressive
elevateme's joke of the week:
If John Terry was a Spartan, the movie 300 would have been called "1."

Offline dnephi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1859
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #2 on: June 05, 2007, 11:04:06 AM »
Come on, be nice ER.  I would recommend instead working through Czerny's "School of Velocity" for a well-rounded technique.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #3 on: June 05, 2007, 12:37:48 PM »
that's orgasmic?  hmm.  dnephi - frankly, i'm worried about you.

Offline bench warmer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #4 on: June 05, 2007, 01:36:13 PM »
Try either 25-2 or 25-5. (EDITED: make that 25-9)

Don't let Presto or Allegro Vivace scare you. Just take it slow to get the feel & accuracy, then the speed.

25-2 is mesmerizing.

25-5 (EDIT: 25-9)  is short sweet & delightful.

Good luck with whatever you choose.


Offline dnephi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1859
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #5 on: June 05, 2007, 02:02:31 PM »
25-5 is fairly challenging in the second subject section.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline phil13

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1399
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #6 on: June 05, 2007, 03:44:16 PM »
Any of the following:

10-3
10-6
10-9

25-2
25-7
25-9

Good luck.

Phil

Offline bench warmer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #7 on: June 05, 2007, 05:09:27 PM »
25-5 is fairly challenging in the second subject section.


Agreed.

 I had brain-death when I said 25-5. ??? I meant 25-9.

Double-checked: 25-9,  Edited above post.

Offline nightingale11

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #8 on: June 05, 2007, 05:55:32 PM »
have a look at these links:

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1927.msg16974.html#msg16974
(Etude op. 10 no. 1 – Cortot edition – Meiting and Hmoll discuss tendonitis)

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2074.msg17096.html#msg17096
(different editions)

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2678.msg23656.html#msg23656
(Suggestions for different editions)

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3197.msg28098.html#msg28098
(Op. 25 no. 1 –  grades for all etudes and nocturnes)

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3233.msg28792.html#msg28792
(op. 10 no. 2 – Robert Henry excellent post)

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3916.msg35679.html#msg35679
(preparatory pieces for Revolutionary)

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4957.msg47444.html#msg47444
(Op. 10  no. 9 – discussion of fingering and description of movement)

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5090.msg48850.html#msg48850
(How to  figure out fingering for Op. 25 no. 11)

They are all difficult, so it doesn't really matter in what order you learn them. What is important is in what way you learn them--most of the chopin etudes are best learned by outlining. The answer to this will find in these links:

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5767.msg56133.html#msg56133
(huge collection of links)

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9159.msg92755.html#msg92755
(Maylas index of the forum)

and in this book:

Abbey Whiteside - on piano playing  (Amadeus Press)

Offline cloches_de_geneve

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #9 on: June 05, 2007, 07:54:32 PM »
25-5 (EDIT: 25-9)  is short sweet & delightful.

IMO the view of 25/9 being "easy", or at least among the easiest of the set, is a widespread misconception. At least to me, pulling out all those superfast superlight octaves with a very uncomfortable, open handposition, has been a real challenge. Personally, I find that 25/8 fits the hands better.
"It's true that I've driven through a number of red lights on occasion, but on the other hand I've stopped at a lot of green ones but never gotten credit for it." -- Glenn Gould

Offline cloches_de_geneve

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #10 on: June 05, 2007, 07:55:55 PM »

IMO the view of 25/9 being "easy", or at least among the easiest of the set, is a widespread misconception. At least to me, pulling out all those superfast superlight octaves, with a very uncomfortable, open hand position, has been a real challenge. Personally, I find that 25/8 fits the hands better.
"It's true that I've driven through a number of red lights on occasion, but on the other hand I've stopped at a lot of green ones but never gotten credit for it." -- Glenn Gould

Offline bench warmer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #11 on: June 05, 2007, 11:23:22 PM »
IMO the view of 25/9 being "easy", or at least among the easiest of the set, is a widespread misconception. At least to me, pulling out all those superfast superlight octaves, with a very uncomfortable, open hand position, has been a real challenge. Personally, I find that 25/8 fits the hands better.


There was no mention or implication about it being easy (or easiest). I personally don't think any of the Chopin Etudes are easy to master so that they  sound like music and not exercises.
 
25-9 is short in relation to the other Etudes, fairly repetitious in the RT. Hnd. & not much to concentrate on in the LH.

Everyone has different strengths  & weaknesses, so it's  difficult to suggest to someone what Chopin Etude to play next based on his reporting that he's mastered 25-1. If this thread continues long enough every Etude in op.10 & op25 will probably be suggested as a candidate.

Offline dnephi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1859
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #12 on: June 06, 2007, 02:10:26 AM »
I still think that the Czerny recommendation was best.

Dan
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline christiaan

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #13 on: July 16, 2007, 11:29:47 AM »
And what Liszt etude can I give a shot?

Offline dnephi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1859
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #14 on: July 16, 2007, 12:31:58 PM »
Ab Irato (last version) might be best.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline imbetter

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1264
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #15 on: July 16, 2007, 01:11:43 PM »
ab irato? no way.

Try transcendental etudes 1 and 3
"My advice to young musicians: Quit music! There is no choice. It has to be a calling, and even if it is and you think there's a choice, there is no choice"-Vladimir Feltsman

Offline dnephi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1859
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 01:32:42 PM »
ab irato? no way.

Try transcendental etudes 1 and 3
#1 is pretty hard.  Its arpeggios involve the 4th finger on a black key, which makes it a bit rough.  The Cramer-like sequences are OK, but still take a good technique.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline mcgillcomposer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 839
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 07:58:48 PM »
Why has no one mentioned Op. 25 No. 12? It must be among the easiest 3 or 4...not that any of them are "easy", of course.
Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline avetma

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 331
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #18 on: July 16, 2007, 08:22:38 PM »
Why has no one mentioned Op. 25 No. 12? It must be among the easiest 3 or 4...not that any of them are "easy", of course.

Because it isn't.

Offline amelialw

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1106
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #19 on: July 16, 2007, 09:46:18 PM »
it is'nt the easiest one. Op.25 No.4 in F minor is the easiest one between Op.10 and Op.25
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline piano89

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 5
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #20 on: July 16, 2007, 11:27:04 PM »
op 10 no 4

Offline m

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1107
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #21 on: July 17, 2007, 12:25:25 AM »
it is'nt the easiest one. Op.25 No.4 in F minor is the easiest one between Op.10 and Op.25

If I am not mistaken the Op.25/4 in fact is in a minor.
This etude has very specific difficulties and is very far from the easiest one.

Offline amelialw

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1106
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #22 on: July 17, 2007, 12:29:03 AM »
opps, mistake the Op.25 No.3 f minor is the easiest one.
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline mikey6

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1406
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #23 on: July 17, 2007, 12:33:14 AM »
opps, mistake the Op.25 No.3 f minor is the easiest one.
op.25 no.2 perhaps, in fmin? and please do not let this slip into an easiest debate!  He did not ask for that anywayz.
Never look at the trombones. You'll only encourage them.
Richard Strauss

Offline m

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1107
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #24 on: July 17, 2007, 12:41:42 AM »

They are all difficult, so it doesn't really matter in what order you learn them.


This is a very controversial statement. While I completely agree they are ALL difficult, I could argue with the part "it doesn't really matter in what order you learn them".

And BTW, Nightingale11, when you post links at least check if they are working, or even better... post your own ideas  ;).

Offline mcgillcomposer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 839
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #25 on: July 17, 2007, 03:42:42 AM »
Because it isn't.
It really is. It's just a bunch of arpeggios with a melody in the lower register.

...awaits angry letters...   ;D
Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline chidi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #26 on: July 17, 2007, 05:00:43 AM »
It really is. It's just a bunch of arpeggios with a melody in the lower register.

...awaits angry letters...   ;D

Haha, if only we can say that and play it with the same ease.  ;)

-Chidi
Chidi Okoro

Offline mcgillcomposer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 839
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #27 on: July 17, 2007, 06:23:09 AM »
Haha, if only we can say that and play it with the same ease.  ;)

-Chidi

I can. As for most of the other études, I cannot. Maybe it just suits my technique...who knows.
Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline christiaan

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #28 on: July 17, 2007, 07:04:18 AM »
Liszt etudes plz. What about trancendental etude no. 11?

Offline christiaan

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #29 on: July 17, 2007, 07:08:16 AM »
Or Un Sospiro?

Offline cloches_de_geneve

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 439
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #30 on: July 17, 2007, 07:13:47 AM »
I have a number of live recordings of 25/12 and heard live performances. I have noticed that  pianists tend to mess this one up -- strangely more so than 25/11. Just lots of wrong notes.

Maybe it's just tiredness, fatigue: After all, one gets there after making it through 25/10 and 25/11. But then, if it was an easy etude, no messup should happen. Besides, and as always, it is crucial to distinguish between playing the etude for pleasure or performing it as the final pièce de résistance of the set. If you mess up an earlier etude, the public might forget; but if you play the last one badly, it will be remembered. And the performer knows it.
"It's true that I've driven through a number of red lights on occasion, but on the other hand I've stopped at a lot of green ones but never gotten credit for it." -- Glenn Gould

Offline mcgillcomposer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 839
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #31 on: July 17, 2007, 08:02:19 AM »
I have a number of live recordings of 25/12 and heard live performances. I have noticed that  pianists tend to mess this one up -- strangely more so than 25/11. Just lots of wrong notes.

Maybe it's just tiredness, fatigue: After all, one gets there after making it through 25/10 and 25/11. But then, if it was an easy etude, no messup should happen. Besides, and as always, it is crucial to distinguish between playing the etude for pleasure or performing it as the final pièce de résistance of the set. If you mess up an earlier etude, the public might forget; but if you play the last one badly, it will be remembered. And the performer knows it.

I never said it was "easy"; read my initial post. In any case, fatigue shouldn't be a problem if one has been trained properly (unless you've played a 3 hour concert leading up to the etude, filled with virtuosic repertoire). Also, wrong notes aren't that big of a deal in this piece; the overall impression should be like a wash of sound. Admittedly, if there are tons, they will stick out, but a few here and there is nothing to worry about. In fact, the best recording I ever heard of this work (Cortot) has several wrong notes.
Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline christiaan

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #32 on: July 17, 2007, 09:35:12 AM »
Liszt plz!!!!!!!!!!

Offline avetma

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 331
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #33 on: July 17, 2007, 09:39:39 AM »
Maybe Un Sospiro would be the best to start with?

Offline mcgillcomposer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 839
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #34 on: July 17, 2007, 03:48:01 PM »
Try Funérailles.
Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline chidi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #35 on: July 17, 2007, 03:55:28 PM »
I can. As for most of the other études, I cannot. Maybe it just suits my technique...who knows.

That's great. Do you happen to have any recordings of yourself playing it? I'm not saying this as a strike back if it seems that way, but his etude is one of my favorites.

-Chidi
Chidi Okoro

Offline mcgillcomposer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 839
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #36 on: July 17, 2007, 03:58:37 PM »
That's great. Do you happen to have any recordings of yourself playing it? I'm not saying this as a strike back if it seems that way, but his etude is one of my favorites.

-Chidi
No, but I can post one on Youtube. I have a really sh$tty camera that I use to record videos, so the sound quality will be horrible. I had actually started a mini series on Youtube called "An étude is born". I was going to map my progress in learning the work. I put up the first installment (after 3 days of 15 minutes per day practice on the piece), but have not followed up. The sound quality of the first recording was so poor that I got discouraged. Anyway, I just bought some condenser mics, so I'll see what I can do.

Have you heard the Cortot recording?
Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline chidi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #37 on: July 17, 2007, 04:05:18 PM »
Have you heard the Cortot recording?

I'm not sure. I have a pretty good recording of the piece but I'm don't know who's playing it. Did you buy a CD or heard it some other way?
Chidi Okoro

Offline mcgillcomposer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 839
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #38 on: July 17, 2007, 04:06:03 PM »
I'm not sure. I have a pretty good recording of the piece but I'm don't know who's playing it. Did you buy a CD or heard it some other way?
I purchased the CD at Archambault in Montréal, Québec. Do you have a large store dedicated to classical music where you live?
Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline chidi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #39 on: July 17, 2007, 04:21:44 PM »
I purchased the CD at Archambault in Montréal, Québec. Do you have a large store dedicated to classical music where you live?

Unfortunately no, but could it be available for purchase online?
Chidi Okoro

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12053
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #40 on: July 17, 2007, 04:23:22 PM »
that's orgasmic?  hmm.  dnephi - frankly, i'm worried about you.
Do you play it yourself, Susan? - and, if not, can you be sure?

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline mcgillcomposer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 839
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #41 on: July 17, 2007, 04:32:49 PM »
Unfortunately no, but could it be available for purchase online?
Sure...let me find the link...

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.111052

His interpretations are SO rich...I have yet to hear anything else that comes close.
Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline chidi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #42 on: July 17, 2007, 04:43:51 PM »
Sure...let me find the link...

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.111052

His interpretations are SO rich...I have yet to hear anything else that comes close.

Thank you, already too anxious waiting.

-Chidi
Chidi Okoro

Offline chopinfan_22

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #43 on: July 17, 2007, 08:40:51 PM »
Let's face it. None of Chopin's etudes are easy. If they were easy, everybody would learn them. Etudes are studies. As such, each is difficult in its own way, because it presents the player with a different obstacle. The reason that some people find some etudes easier than others is because each pianist is different. What may be easy for me may not be easy for you. So the question you must ask yourself is which of the etudes is easiest for you? Try sight reading some of them. Find one that you think would be challenging but also something that you could learn.

I would say the same thing for the Transcendental etudes. You might find Harmonies du Soir easier than Mazeppa, or Fuex Follets easier than something else. Look at the scores, try playing a few. See which ones would be easiest for you.
"When I look around me, I must sigh, for what I see is contrary to my religion and I must despize the world which does not know that music is a higher revelation beyond all wisdom and philosophy."

Offline christiaan

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #44 on: July 18, 2007, 07:22:05 AM »
Thanx chopinfan 22!

Offline christiaan

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 64
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #45 on: July 18, 2007, 07:25:03 AM »
Hey there.

This is my list of Liszt works.

I have to choose one. Plz help!

Harmonies du Soir
Un Sospiro
Funerailles
Mazzepa
Fuex Follets

Offline chopinfan_22

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #46 on: July 18, 2007, 12:10:32 PM »
I'm a fan of Harmonies du Soir and Un Sospiro myself.
"When I look around me, I must sigh, for what I see is contrary to my religion and I must despize the world which does not know that music is a higher revelation beyond all wisdom and philosophy."

Offline chidi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #47 on: July 18, 2007, 12:29:09 PM »
Hey there.

This is my list of Liszt works.

I have to choose one. Plz help!

Harmonies du Soir
Un Sospiro
Funerailles
Mazzepa
Fuex Follets


What makes it difficult to choose? Why does it require assistance? Just close your eyes and point at one and if you don't like it, repeat the process.  :P

-Chidi
Chidi Okoro

Offline dnephi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1859
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #48 on: July 18, 2007, 02:14:24 PM »
Hey there.

This is my list of Liszt works.

I have to choose one. Plz help!

Harmonies du Soir
Un Sospiro
Funerailles
Mazzepa
Fuex Follets

First: Feux Follets is spelled wrong in your post.
Second: Funerailles is not an etude.
Third: Those are all probably beyond your technique. 
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline chopinfan_22

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: etudes op. 10&25
«Reply #49 on: July 18, 2007, 11:31:53 PM »
Third: Those are all probably beyond your technique. 

This is also something to consider. Perhaps taking on another Chopin etude?
"When I look around me, I must sigh, for what I see is contrary to my religion and I must despize the world which does not know that music is a higher revelation beyond all wisdom and philosophy."