The truth about HIV.

[zheer]

    Recently i discoverd that a group of American scientists/medics where sent to Africa to discover a cure for a particular virus. Sadly they injected this 'cure' into the africans, consequently 40 million people world wide suffer from from this virus.
Does anyone else find this very frightning.

[pianistimo]

?  where do you find documentation?  (not that documentation always proves everything - but generally people want to see it).

[zheer]

   Believe me thats the truth.

[rach n bach]

If this was a college paper, you just got an F. 

Sorry, gonna need more than that.

[zheer]

If this was a college paper, you just got an F. 

Sorry, gonna need more than that.

  I knew you guys would deny it. I cant say where this information came from. ( X file)

[rach n bach]

I'm not denying it.  I am simply a born skeptic, and want some sort of proof for stuff: particularly stuff with implications like this.

[zheer]

I'm not denying it. 

   Thanks,  the thing is no one asks these days how ,where and who started it, but are more intersted in stoping it. Since HIV is found in the blood we can conclude that it was injected into the blood, we all know that it did not appear from thin air. People get ill scientists search for a solution. Anyway at some point in the 1930 - 1940 a group of American scientists/ medic were looking for a cure for a particular virus found amongst africans, they sady believed that a mixture of X Y Z plus would you believe it or not the blood of a monkey would do the trick. So they injected it into the African people, many years later what is now known as AIDS was common amongst africans, since they injected a large number of people with this virus over the years and many sexual intercourse resulted in what we now have, a pandemic.

[mephisto]

I don't belive it.

[zheer]

I don't belive it.

  Believe what you like, most people like myself turn a blind eye, but i've decided not to be like that anymore. People often get killed for telling the truth.

[soliloquy]

  I knew you guys would deny it. I cant say where this information came from. ( X file)

X-File?


Wow.  Hey I heard that if I try hard enough I can be a power ranger.  But I can't tell you where.  (a power ranger told me)

[rach n bach]

*trying*

[notturno]

  I knew you guys would deny it. I cant say where this information came from. ( X file)

Most good conspiracy theorist can at least fabricate some questionable documentation for their support of the existence of dubious conspiracies like gunmen in grassy knolls, Iraqi WMDs, etc.  This theory on the origin of the AIDS epidemic started in a highly credible science journal known as Rolling Stone.

Here is one of many responses to this claim:
https://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/AIDS/Koprowski92.html

The X-Files was a great show though.

[zheer]

Here is one of many responses to this claim:
https://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/AIDS/Koprowski92.html

   True, no point pointing the finger of blame (i gess), i just find it a little frightning that so many people know so little about this virus. All that can be done is to prevent it from spreading.

[pies]

a

[Bob]

Believe me thats the truth.

Ok then.  I believe you zheer.

[jakev2.0]

    Recently i discoverd that a group of American scientists/medics where sent to Africa to discover a cure for a particular virus. Sadly they injected this 'cure' into the africans, consequently 40 million people world wide suffer from from this virus.
Does anyone else find this very frightning.

RIGHT ON, ZHEER. RIGHT ON!

[pianistimo]

what does your mother have to say about this?

as one person put it - tb with a positive antibody test = aids
tb with a negative antibody test = tb

one to thirty other diseases can be inherently plaguing the systems of people who's immunity is compromised.  the african continent has to deal with a lot of things.  water/food/hygene - constantly - to make sure there's no contamination.  by the time a person has been infected with several things (possibly from birth - if born to an hiv infected mother) - can you really say exactly what they are dying from.  or is the above a sort of general category for people who die rather quickly from compromised immune systems.

i wonder sometimes about body weight, too.  i mean - if someone is very thin - does that sort of compromise how much energy they have to fight any sort of disease? 

as i see it - there are healthy ways to live - and risk associated ways to live.  if you know that something carries risk (no condoms, etc) - then don't be risky.  otherwise - you might die before your time.  and i don't think it's limited to any one continent.  i think it is fairly centrally located to areas with high risk activity and minimal hygiene.

[pianistimo]

some of the cures now are 'cocktails' aren't they.  medicine that is not injected, is it.  rather pills.

but, when injections were used - could it not be the 'cure' itself - but the infected needles that are to blame.  this could cause hiv, hepatitis B and C, and whatever else.  perhaps one needs to see the needle being opened from it's sterile packing or say - 'no thanks!'

[Bob]

And let that be a lesson for you.  Pianistimo will tell your mother on you. 

[mikey6]

I heard AIDS was brought about by people doin it in all sorts of weird places.
So why should I choose to believe your theory and not that one?

[pianistimo]

perhaps the issue is culture.  what culture people are brought up in.  our current culture is quite accepting of 'alternative' lifestyles - whereas a few generations ago - it was 'in the closet.'  so - where is this leading? 

in pennsylvania it is perfectly legal for homosexual couples to adopt children.  i have a problem with that.  but, i would never stop someone from claiming their freedom.  it's just that i personally would never say that i agreed with it - and voting - would vote against it.

what if - since people are more prone to be 'at risk' - also carry the risk of infecting an innocent child.  people now say - well heterosexual people carry as much risk.  yes, now!  why?  because of sleeping with too many people with std's.  if people are monogamous - the risk for aids is zero - unless they have a drug problem or are infected by a hospital stay, or are born to an aids infected mother (in which case they would have probably died or been too sick to date).

the majority of aids cases when aids was first recognized (which it could have been recognized in previous cultures and been around from the times of egypt) were associated with 'risky' behavior.  people who say that drugs or injections are the cause are fooling themselves.  as i see it - one of the egyptian plagues could well have been aids.  the philistines also were afflicted with 'boils' when they took the ark of God.  we have many plagues that can affect us that cannot be proven to not have existed previously.  in fact, although they may be more severe now - because of mutations and antibiotic resistance - they had to survive in some form or other from creation.

that's how i see it.  and why were they created in the first place?  the catholic church says that God never punishes people.  that is not in the bible.  leviticus 26 is also called a blessing and cursing chapter for the peoples of israel (and ultimately anyone who wants to follow health and life prescriptions for living with God in harmony).  this is from leviticus 26:14 'but if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant, I, in turn will do this to you:

I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption (losing weight) and fever that shall waste away the eyes (this is exactly what happens in aids - as it can reside in places in the body such as the retina) and cause the soul to pine away (look at aids victims and find a soul that has not faded a bit);  also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up.'

now - i know exactly how some will respond.  'how can you judge?'  i can't.  i'm just saying that whatever commandments are broken - God DOES judge. He is the judge and arbiter - and i think these diseases were created as a sort of 'law of gravity' to show that his commandments are always in effect. even to the FOURTH generation (that means how we teach our children).

so - if we are good at keeping the laws of God - does that make us better?  no.  we're still going to die.  so what's the point?  the point is - you can live a longer healthier life if you read and follow biblical prescriptions for health.  will God forgive any sin?  yes.  any sin.  so - does it matter if you die of aids?  NO.  of course not.  anyone can be in God's kingdom - but they have to reassess what is truly God's word on the subject.

does God say - do anything you want?  no.  so i feel the catholic church is wrong on this doctrine.  i think that revelations also speaks of 'pains and sores'  rev. 16:10 'and the fifth angel poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, and they blasphemed God of heaven because of their pains and their SORES; and they did not repent of their deeds.' 

now, why would God mention pains and sores and repenting right after that? 

[pianistimo]

part of my 'proof' that this society is reaping what it sows - is the proliferation of aids as a disease.  it is a curse.

[maul]

I think pianistimo has AIDS.

[pies]

I think pianistimo has AIDS.

I don't know why, but this made me laugh out loud (which is a first for this forum).

[pianistimo]

if i did, i'd be the first to know. 

i have severe allergies at times, sometimes tired, and occasionally low immunities - but i believe it is not so much a disease as stress.  when you have children when you're a bit older it's much different than when you are younger.  you enjoy it more, though, i think.  it's just you don't have the same amount of energy.

i've always had some health problems since a child.  i was out of school for a year around first grade because of lung problem.  pneumonia.  i felt like chopin the entire year.  weak.  no energy.  my mom helped my immunities by making sure we always ate organic food -but still when you are young and all - it makes you less able to go out do what everyone else does with energy.

when i was in middle school a friend suggested to my mom that i try cycling.  so i did - and it ended up that boosted my feelings of better health - although i'd still go through times of lacking energy.  i had a hankering for sugar occasionally, though - and i have to say through experience that sugar and unnatural foods only boost your feeling of energy temporarily.

nowdays, i really attempt to input more dark greens into my diet.  this sounds funny - but i think part of the reason that some people like me occasionally lack energy is that they are not always eating what God designed them to eat.  whole grains, lots of veggies, lots of water/juice, minimal amounts or no meat.  our family occasionally goes to eating meat every day - i don't think this is particularly healthy. 

also, i don't think i have aids because i'm not around a man who has it - that i know of.  he goes to the doctor twice a year or more - and if the doctor knew he had it - i'm sure he'd tell me.  also, if i had it - the tests that show lack of antibodies would not fight anything i got.  i'd become severely immune deficient and not be able to fight off whatever came my way. 

that said - i feel that i have a high degree of sympathy for anyone who does have it.  i've had several spider bites (both back in calif and here ) and know what it feels like to have a pain - also, to have allergies - and compromises in feeling good from day to day.  there are many things that are immune deficiency related and not only aids.  but, if a person has it - i think the best cure is to seek God and a lifestyle that is according to the biblical laws of life.  miriam (of the bible) had leprosy for a week - but was cured.  i found this incredible - that God can cause diseases and also take them away.  'by his stripes you are healed.'  not everyone is healed in this lifetime - but i think that when you make efforts to come towards God - He holds you in a secure grasp.  no matter what happens.

i feel healthier today than i was as a child.  God and exercise and diet help me the most.  no processed foods (although tempting to eat occasioanlly) and more and more organic veggies, etc.  the way our food is processed takes nutrients out.  we also tend to lack minerals/essential elements.

[ramseytheii]

but, if a person has it - i think the best cure is to seek God and a lifestyle that is according to the biblical laws of life.  miriam (of the bible) had leprosy for a week - but was cured.  i found this incredible - that God can cause diseases and also take them away.  'by his stripes you are healed.'  not everyone is healed in this lifetime - but i think that when you make efforts to come towards God - He holds you in a secure grasp.  no matter what happens.

I'm sorry to say that those that promote God's Will as the ultimate in health are those that are killing an entire continent.  The most influential religious presence in Africa, the Catholic Church, refuses to recognize even the existence of condoms, even though AIDS is spreading there like wildfire in dry brush.  Christians are killing the people of Africa, and then, when you get comments such as these, that God takes care of the faithful, they are destroying the psychology of a generation.  When God doesn't cure their AIDS with a wave of the magic wand, it becomes their fault for not being faithful enough.  Shame on all who will blame the holder of a disease for their disease, and imply through innuendos that they are not right with God, and therefore they are being punished. 

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

aids is not limited to the continent of africa.  there are many people in all countries severely compromised immune systems - and they weren't told by any church not to use condoms.  they just never bought any.

in the beginning - i don't think people's immune systems were compromised because people were fairly monogamous.  but, down through history - it became such that even infants would be carrying diseases that their parents had.

as i see it - there are activities that carry risk for any continent.  some cultures think that orgies are ok.  but, what really happens?  a person is taking on the sexual history of each and every person they have a casual encounter with.  witchcraft is also high on the list - because people compromise themselves with animal blood and rituals.  there are many things that cultures all over the world do now - that they never did before.  of course, not everyone with hepatitis, or aids or any disease - might have accidentally - or by infected needles (while attemtping a cure or vaccination for something) - but the majority - i bet are either second/third/fourth generation - and/or doing something risky in their own lives.

if no christians went in and tried to help aids victims - would that be better?  no.  i don't think so.  are hollywood stars more able to help aids victims?  no - and certainly not less in terms of sympathy.  but, what really DOES help aids victims?  i believe learning how to not spread it to others.  love is not sharing a disease.  nor is it ignoring those who have it.  if a person has money and time and ability to help take care of aids victims - i think it's a really worthy cause.  no matter if christian or not.  the thing is - what makes people succeptible to it?  is it a biblical precept that might be compromising immune systems.

God seems very hygenic and purposeful in His creation.  in leviticus 18:22 'you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion.  do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which i am casting out before you have become defiled.' 

so we see that there is a definate prescription for immune related risk and compromises.  body fluids.  can you get aids if you don't have sex?  can you get aids from a completely monogamous relationship?  i think children should be told the TRUTH.  it is not that they shouldn't have sex - or only have sex with condoms - but in what context it is good.  every TIME they have sex it is a risk if they do not know the sexual history of their partner.  i think God made it this way.  why?  so that people would know that monogamy is better.  that living the way God made us to live is better.  who should tell us this.  the church!  marriage used to be sanctioned.  now, it is only on paper - but not necessarily preaching the truth about risky behavior being cursed.  and, that people should not sexually abuse others or cause others to be at risk.

btw - i don't think that aids victims should be cast aside either or made to feel somehow more sinful.  we're all sinful.  there's many sins and God is fully capable of causing plenty of grief for any commandment broken.  i really do think He upholds his laws and teaches people by consequences - but is full of mercy and compassion.  He made us to have free-will and must have known we'd choose the wrong thing occasionally.  the OT is full of the realities- and yet the NT is full of His mercies.  i think He knows that a good parent does not say 'do whatever you want.' - but, He also makes provision for the prodigal sons/daughters. 

[ramseytheii]

aids is not limited to the continent of africa.  there are many people in all countries severely compromised immune systems - and they weren't told by any church not to use condoms.  they just never bought any.

If this seemingly innocent and almost charming reply wasn't so vicious and cruel, I would be laughing rather than crying:

https://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html
https://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=a1.ixKA4PAJs&refer=uk
https://www.cathnews.com/news/310/53.php
https://www.cathnews.com/news/308/22.php
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3176982.stm

Africa is the best example because the Christians have so inhumanely abused the citizens of that continent by warning them of damnation if they use condoms.  Without doubt, contraceptives are against Church teaching, but when the Church is confronted with two evils (one only in its imagination) it obviously choose the lesser of the two: disease and death.

as i see it - there are activities that carry risk for any continent.  some cultures think that orgies are ok.  but, what really happens?  a person is taking on the sexual history of each and every person they have a casual encounter with.  witchcraft is also high on the list - because people compromise themselves with animal blood and rituals.  there are many things that cultures all over the world do now - that they never did before.  of course, not everyone with hepatitis, or aids or any disease - might have accidentally - or by infected needles (while attemtping a cure or vaccination for something) - but the majority - i bet are either second/third/fourth generation - and/or doing something risky in their own lives.

This viewpoint might have been comforting twenty years ago, but the fact is people who are getting married and leading monogamous relationships in places like Africa are still at risk, because of what Christians are perpetuating there.  Not even until recently was there a campaign to have the population take AIDS tests; babies are being born all the time that carry the disease and nobody knows.  They could lead perfectly innocent lives by the Church's absurd standards, and pass it on to their spouse.  Sorry, it won't be as easy as blaming the person that contracts the disease anymore.

if no christians went in and tried to help aids victims - would that be better?  no.  i don't think so.  are hollywood stars more able to help aids victims?  no - and certainly not less in terms of sympathy.  but, what really DOES help aids victims?  i believe learning how to not spread it to others.  love is not sharing a disease.  nor is it ignoring those who have it.  if a person has money and time and ability to help take care of aids victims - i think it's a really worthy cause.  no matter if christian or not.  the thing is - what makes people succeptible to it?  is it a biblical precept that might be compromising immune systems.

If no Christians went to help AIDS victims, the situation would be vastly improved.  Contraceptive devices and education would be spread throughout the continent, the virus would be held in check, and hundreds of thousands of lives would be saved.  As it is now, the Church is so intent on building its numbers, as the current membership is dropping like flies, that it will stranglehold an entire continent in despair and try and force its people to become priests and nuns - because the only other option will be death from sexually transmitted disease.  You are absolutely right - people have to learn how to stop spreading disease to others.  I wish Christians knew how to teach that.

God seems very hygenic and purposeful in His creation.  in leviticus 18:22 'you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion.  do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which i am casting out before you have become defiled.' 

We all beg you to stop with the anti-homosexual hate-speech innuendos.  This was the comforting viewpoint not twenty years ago, but thirty years ago.  You are stuck in a time warp.


Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

mr ramseytheii,

i am not catholic.  why are you projecting your church on to me?  i don't go around telling people not to use condoms.  i merely say that condoms are not the answer.  risky behavior is.  sure, some continents have more chaos and women do not always control what happens.  is this my fault?  i'd say if it's anyone's fault - it's all men's fault.

forget the church.  focus on men.  (i know -you think i'm biased) - but, shouldn't men learn monogamy.  what is this thing with some churches that allow 5-6 wives.  what is going on here?

and, why don't you read the bible instead of spouting what newspapers say?  christianity and the bible have the true answers.  it's not pleasant because God's word isn't always smoothed over with words like 'it's alright - do whatever you want.'

ps  i understand what you are saying when a country is in chaos.  even the UN can't control it with a ton of condoms.

and pss - you are projecting your hate of the bible and what God says about homosexuality on to me.  what do you say when you read leviticus?  it's pretty plain.  people want to do what they want - that's why there is a 'third way.' 

go ahead, take the third way.  it's global.  have fun.  people will still die for 'lack of knowledge.'  ie - it's all the condoms fault.  whereas the bible says in I cor 6:9 'or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?  do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.  and such were some of you; but YOU WERE WASHED, but you WERE SANCTIFIED,  but YOU WERE JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God... flee immorality.  every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.  or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own.  for you have been bought with a price:  therefore glorify God in your body.'

if you claim to be a christian - according to the bible - you have to renounce things that were previously done without true knowledge of God's ways.  once you know the right way - you are held responsible for it.

[thalbergmad]

forget the church. 

We agree on something

[ronde_des_sylphes]

i think children should be told the TRUTH.  it is not that they shouldn't have sex - or only have sex with condoms - but in what context it is good.  every TIME they have sex it is a risk if they do not know the sexual history of their partner. 

btw - i don't think that aids victims should be cast aside either or made to feel somehow more sinful.  we're all sinful. 

I 100% agree.

Now for the bad news..

can you get aids if you don't have sex? 

YES.

can you get aids from a completely monogamous relationship?

YES.

In response to both pianistimo and ramseytheii, Africa is a tragedy in human terms, and yes, religion has a large part to play in this. However it's not purely down to Catholicism. There's so much superstition regarding medicine men and curing powers that it's no surprise the AIDS rate is so high. Was it not the case that even the President of South Africa, Thado Mbeki, was refusing to acknowledge the existence of AIDS despite the absurdly high level of HIV infection in the country?

[thalbergmad]

every TIME they have sex it is a risk if they do not know the sexual history of their partner.   

Indeed, but are you suggesting that we all compile a list of the people we have sex with, so we can give it to a prospective partner.

I did ask my girlfriend for a list, but she gave up after 4 sheets of A4.

Thal

[prometheus]

Comdoms stop aids.


And stop the conspiracy stuff without providing any evidence.

[thalbergmad]

i'd say if it's anyone's fault - it's all men's fault.

forget the church.  focus on men.  (i know -you think i'm biased) - but, shouldn't men learn monogamy.  what is this thing with some churches that allow 5-6 wives.  what is going on here?

and, why don't you read the bible instead of spouting what newspapers say? 

That is the most pathetic, deluded, disgusting, uneducated, moronic, warped and biased remark i think i have ever seen. Do you honestly think in your tiny little mind that it is only men that have multiple partners?

In addition, what possible relevance has your out of date 2000 year old guide book, written by sandal wearing sheep farmers got to do with a problem such as this?. Well, i can answer that myself.....NOTHING.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

i'd say if it's anyone's fault - it's all men's fault.

forget the church.  focus on men.  (i know -you think i'm biased) - but, shouldn't men learn monogamy.  what is this thing with some churches that allow 5-6 wives.  what is going on here?

Women are inherently monogamous? 

Are you suggesting that we all compile a list of the people we have sex with, so we can give it to a prospective partner.

I did ask my girlfriend for a list, but she gave up after 4 sheets of A4.

Thal

Great anecdote. It reminded me of someone 
 

[prometheus]

In many part of Africa it is mainly the men that have sex with many different partners, as I am told.

[pianolearner]

That is the most pathetic, deluded, disgusting, uneducated, moronic, warped and biased remark i think i have ever seen. Do you honestly think in your tiny little mind that it is only men that have multiple partners?

In addition, what possible relevance has your out of date 2000 year old guide book, written by sandal wearing sheep farmers got to do with a problem such as this?. Well, i can answer that myself.....NOTHING.

Thal

Women don't have multiple partners because they don't have time. Cooking and cleaning for one keeps them busy enough. Although, come to think of it, modern electrical appliances have made it easier for today's woman, who knows, maybe some can find extra time for a 2nd man 

[thalbergmad]

modern electrical appliances have made it easier for today's woman

Indeed and modern electrical appliances have also helped women to learn to cope without men.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Indeed and modern electrical appliances have also helped women to learn to cope without men.

Thal

My thoughts exactly. The big question is.. do you mean that comment in the way that I interpreted it? 

[thalbergmad]

My thoughts exactly. The big question is.. do you mean that comment in the way that I interpreted it? 

Not sure old chap, perhaps i should change it to avoid any possible missconception.

Don't want any bad vibes resulting from my posts.

Thal

[pianolearner]

Indeed and modern electrical appliances have also helped women to learn to cope without men.

Thal

Of course... Television!

[pianistimo]

i was joking about it being 'all men's fault.'  actually, i think you're all right about things in one way or another.  ramseytheii,too.  it's just that i happen to think that if God made things 'good' and 'perfect' - then he wouldn't have cursed a normal sexual relationship between two monogamous people (that don't share their relationship with anyone else).  but, of course, i've heard too that saliva and all -sharing drinks - i suppose - could also share the disease.  and, i have no idea about the incidents of stepping on needles or getting jabbed accidentally. but, if people are not doing risky things - what is the chance of getting aids?  zero.

you don't typically see amish people getting it.  they're too busy working.  (am picking up the vibes on the working idea).  people who work have no time for sex three times a day.  however, they may die younger for lack of it.  but, be that as it may - they will not die of aids. 

i suppose God made life very fair and unfair at the same time.  innocent people probably die of aids every day - children - women and men who's partners didn't tell them - whomever steps on a needle in a strange place -perhaps a beach or location where they weren't particularly seeking drugs.

[timothy42b]

what do you say when you read leviticus?  it's pretty plain. 

Perhaps, then, you could explain why it is okay to focus on that one prohibition in Lev and ignore the rest of the book. 

That is a serious (and sad) question and not an attack.  I've asked it before, and there doesn't seem to be an answer.  This leads me to wonder whether the people who quote that passage are merely using it to justify their personal bigotry, rather than actually having respect for God's word. 

[pianistimo]

who is ignoring the rest of the book?  if you read it - you have it in your mind.  whether you do it or don't do it is your business.  God is the judge.  all i'm saying - is that it's in there.  people say 'the bible says this - or that?'  well, you have to go and look for yourself.  then you know what God says.

of course, everyone will die from something.  but, i don't think people typically want to die from aids. 

as the bible says - death = sin  and ressurrection thru Christ = life

we're all sinners - but, we can gain a sense of appreciation and show it to God by our live changes.  whatever sins we had before that are forgiven - we can change and go a different way.  this shows God a heart of repentance.  if we say we have no sin - we are liars.  but, that is a christian viewpoint and not shared by all.  therefore - those that do not believe  - are possibly not held under the same 'curses.'  but, i do believe that those that believe and don't do - are really held responsible for what they know.

[timothy42b]

who is ignoring the rest of the book? 

If you've read it, then you know that one paragraph after the prohibition on visiting male temple prostitutes is an equally strong prohibition against shaving the beard.

Many times we've heard you rail against homosexuals and not once have you complained about clean shaven men.

Not once have you insisted that even visitors should be put to death if they work on the Sabbath.   

YOU are ignoring the rest of the book.  There are 612 commandments in the old testament and you seem to think ONE is important.  And of course, according to you, the rest of them no longer apply, we nonJews are released from the law. 

[pianistimo]

agreed that there is a certain 'freedom' in the law - in the new testament - but, as i see it the early disciples followed Christ - and Christ said 'not one jot or title shall pass from the law until ALL is fulfilled.'  and, He himself kept the Sabbath holy.  so, as i see it - a shaving of the beard is not that a man can't be shaven - but that he should not 'round the corners of his beard ' to look like he is attempting some kind of art project that brings attention to the mouth in a lewd way.  that my personal interpretation.  there's also a proverb that talks about people winking the eye, and, pointing, and also sticking out their tongues.  that 's where their mind is at.  people present themselves how they dress and groom themselves.  also, i think the ot was presenting some of these statutes for the israelite men in particular - so they would know the difference between nazarene men (who grow out all their hair - beard included) and non-nazarene which would cut their hair but not their beards.  this is the way it is in israel today and distinguishes this people. 

God wanted the people of israel to be holy and distinct.  to show by certain elements that they were under the law of God and believed it to be a holy way.  just as other religions consider other 'regulations' of their own religions.

christians typically read the 10 commandments (basic) as they were the regulations that did not have to do with identifying with a particular nationality.  but, if people choose to take on these extra statutes - they are blessed.  why?  because it is a sort of 'guide' to the galaxy.  it is the way God probably made it for everyone at the garden of eden.  God rested on the seventh day - and blessed it.  for everyone.  but, not everyone accepts the blessing of resting.  so, it doesn't mean the day isn't there.

should everyone become a jew?  no. paul even told off the disciples.  he said - if someone doesn't want circumcision - what is that?!  it certainly doesn't mean they are unable to pray to God.  it is a health law.  something that kept the ot men 'cleaner' and less able to spread disease.  people dispute this - but back in their days - it was really true.  nowdays - everyone has more access to running water and cleanliness from products that will be anti-bacterial, etc.  anyways - the point is - it's  moot point.

paul is a very good liason for disciples of christ that are gentile.  he basically says not to eat meat meant for idols (or worship things offerred to idols) and keep oneself unspotted fromthe world.  what does unspotted mean?  well, to know that - you have to compare the world's laws to God's laws.  is it ok for a man to marry his wife and her daughter.  no.  how would we know this - because man's law ultimately stemmed from God's law long ago.  incest wouldn't even be a word if God hadn't come up with the idea.  animals don't knwo their right hand from their left.  we do.  so we have laws.

[ramseytheii]

agreed that there is a certain 'freedom' in the law

You read it here first people.   I've always believed our leaders influence us in subtle ways; George Bush and his administration obviously inspire people to what we call in the news, "cherry-picking!"

- in the new testament - but, as i see it the early disciples followed Christ - and Christ said 'not one jot or title shall pass from the law until ALL is fulfilled.'  and, He himself kept the Sabbath holy.  so, as i see it - a shaving of the beard is not that a man can't be shaven - but that he should not 'round the corners of his beard ' to look like he is attempting some kind of art project that brings attention to the mouth in a lewd way.  that my personal interpretation.  there's also a proverb that talks about people winking the eye, and, pointing, and also sticking out their tongues.  that 's where their mind is at.  people present themselves how they dress and groom themselves.  also, i think the ot was presenting some of these statutes for the israelite men in particular - so they would know the difference between nazarene men (who grow out all their hair - beard included) and non-nazarene which would cut their hair but not their beards.  this is the way it is in israel today and distinguishes this people. 

I believe Leviticus 18:22 also only applies to those Nazarene men who tend to "lie with men," and not those non-Nazarene ones.  Since it doesn't apply to everyone, it's clearly outmoded.

Also if one should not bring attention to the mouth in a lewd way that resembles an art project, wearing lipstick is clearly a sin.  But I think it is a sin anyways, not even counting this reinforcing passage.  Sin on!

Walter Ramsey

[thalbergmad]

but, of course, i've heard too that saliva and all -sharing drinks - i suppose - could also share the disease.  and, i have no idea about the incidents of stepping on needles or getting jabbed accidentally. but, if people are not doing risky things - what is the chance of getting aids?  zero.

Oh, so walking across a field of flowers and accidently stepping on a syringe filled with infected blood is risky is it?

Must wear me steel capped boots when i go out next.

Thal

[pianistimo]

mr ramseytheii, the amish would consider you quite correct about lipstick.  i happen to be neutral.  i mean - i think if you use neutral pinks - it's close enough to the real color.  but, bright red?  it's kind of a 'bling bling' thing.  do you want them to notice your lips only.  i mean - it's a project for some people.  i always had trouble getting the lipline straight - so do this really quick pass across the bottom lip and smack my lips together and then kiss something.  if it looks even -it's even.

lipliner is for artists only.  hate to see men try any of this.  anywyas.  were we talking about women or men?  i'm  alittle confused. 

yes, thal, a field of flowers could be dangerous in the wrong territory.  you know - maybe the flowers are poppies and you're somewhere in south america.  steel toed boots are it.  i happen to wear knee high hip waders when in doubt.  this is to protect myself from snakes in the backyard.

[thalbergmad]

the amish would consider you quite correct about lipstick. 

Any idea where i could get one of those scooters?

They are soo totally cool, like.

Thal