Lack of Social Skills?

[alzado]

I am adult learner, and recently went with a new piano teacher because my then current teacher was forced to leave teaching. 

This teacher is very talented, with a joint major in music education as well as performance (piano).  She is attractive and well groomed, and generally one would imagine would be an excellent piano teacher.

HOWEVER, she seems to have a problem with social skills.  I decided to play Ravel's Pavane for a Dead Princess at the last lesson.  I asked her if she was familiar with the piece.  She said nothing.  I played the first two pages.  She had little to say, but did illustrate a corrected technique by playing some measures of the piece beautifully. 

As I continued to play, she took a small packet of carrot sticks out of her purse and began crunching them.  In fairness, she did keep her attention on what I was doing, but still, it was distracting. 

One of the reasons I enjoy taking piano lessons is to discuss -- even briefly -- the pieces I find that I want to learn.  The "Pavane" (mentioned above) is a good example.  How would a professional pianist feel about this piece?  What for her are the greatest challenges?  Since I know little about music theory, the teacher might also highlight any innovative or unexpected structure or harmonies in the piece.  I was a bit bewildered by this teacher's total silence with respect to the piece.  When she played midway through the lesson to illustrate a point of technique, it strongly suggested to me that she knew the piece quite well, and HAD played it.

It occurs to me, since I am a senior citizen, that possibly this teacher just prefers to teach children, and really is not very enthusiastic about teaching the older set.  However, I indicated a need for another teacher on the school bulletin board, and the young woman initially called me and offered to give lessons.  Do you suppose she just wants the remittance from the lessons, but -- when it comes right down to it -- is not very happy about teaching me?

My own best guess is that this young woman just does not have good social skills.  She doesn't interact well with people.   She certainly has a right to keep her personal life absolutely private, but her total silence on the repertory I bring to the lesson is puzzling.  It almost seems unfriendly at times.   My former teacher was quite amiable, and always entered the studio with a cheerful comment about the weather, or some other "ice breaker."  I guess you could say, the former teacher was rather charming, really.  This teacher is really "dipped in ice."  What's going on?

Anyone have any guesses as to what might be going on?  Thanks.

[zheer]

. 

As I continued to play, she took a small packet of carrot sticks out of her purse and began crunching them. 

   Common side effect due to excessive piano playing.

[maxreger]

-get rid of her...

If you are not a top level player or concert pianist, then possibly you can have a teacher that says little, being that he/she knows you understand everything about the work... and is there only as support for your ideas and maybe to interfere in problems spots in regards to interpretation.

But, like you say, if you are a beginner with questions about the harmonic, linear, and structural events in a work, and need/want help in finding out the whys and hows on how to play. You need to have someone who will be continually communicative with you. This goes for away from the piano as well, if you cant talk to your teacher about music, and the piano in general outside of just playing. Something is then wrong with the teacher IMO.

[m1469]

hee hee... this topic and situation are secretly a little funny to me  .

[maxreger]

-why, are you the teacher with a lack of social skills?

[pianistimo]

strange that she answered you nothing  when you asked if she had played the piece in question.  at least you would deserve an answer to that - if nothing else between carrot bites.  perhaps she never played it and didn't want to admit it.  perhaps she was sightreading the piece in front of you and was imitating what she had heard others be told about this piece.

as i see it - where you are - you need a teacher that not only teaches  piano lessons but holds a few master classes here and there.  you seem like you want to play well enough to perform.  this means - goodbye carrot stick teacher.  hello - community college teacher.  for one, they have standards that have to be met at community colleges and there are always 'rate your professor' forms at the end of the year.  if someone is constantly chewing carrot sticks in between talking  - the school will hear about it and quickly reprimand this behavior.

funny that you mention this - though - because i once heard a similar thing about someone's excellent violin teacher excepting instead of carrot sticks - the teacher would sing along with everything.  all melodies - she sang or hummed along.  no matter.  back to the problem here.  this was my problem - say you have a wonderful teacher - but with lessons alone - how much repertoire can you go through as compared to a whole student load (each student with three or four or five pieces per semester)?  with master classes - you take notes on pieces other students are learning so when you get to that piece you have tons of notes and references as to ideas to play those pieces, too.  you get your money's worth. 

[Bob]

Everybody's different.  Depends what you want in the lessons -- Is she teaching you things?  New ideas?  Contintuing to improve?  I would give someone a few lessons before dropping them.  She might just have a different style.

But then I can understand that some people want a pleasant lesson experience.  Have fun, learn things, enjoy it.    Some want the ultra-strict, never gives a compliment type of teacher.

It could have just been an off day.  Fatigue maybe.  Maybe she was nervous or had a lot on her mind -- thinking/planning the lesson. 

[timothy42b]

Sounds to me like two things (at least) are at work.

One is adjusting to a new teacher - there is an inevitable "break-in" period.

But the other is something I see repeatedly here.  The teacher and student don't share the same goals, and don't realize it.  With kids it's even more complicated, as the kids, parents, and teachers end up with three sets of goals.  Kids don't articulate theirs well, but adult learners can.  I think you should discuss what you are looking for with the teacher. 

[alzado]

I'm the guy who began the thread.  Thanks for your many replies.  Max Reger asked about where I am.  I would say, late intermediate or early advanced.

The replies have illustrated for me that there are several styles of teaching in piano.  Some teachers can be "yakky" and never shut up.  Others are very taciturn and tend to intervene only when they detect some major problem with the play.  This latter style of teaching appears to be more typical of advanced students, so it may be indirectly a compliment -- ?

This teacher is very good at the keyboard, as would be expected from someone who majored in piano-- performance.  She is sharp -- she picks up on flaws -- sometimes subtle shortcomings with timing. 

Perhaps I should be more frank with her.  I might respectfully suggest that she knows a lot about music, and I would hope she could be a little more communicative.

Someone wondered how much repertory I go through.  With this teacher I have to prepare more, since almost the entire lesson consists of my playing.  Very little talking takes place.  Usually I prepare three or four pieces.  I rarely ever polish pieces very much, since I easily get bored when playing the same material week after week.  As a senior citizen, I am never going to have to polish pieces to the "recital level."

Someone mentioned that a student at a community college would learn three to five pieces during a semester.  Figuring a semester is 5 months, or about 20 lessons, I would probably play more like 35 or 40 pieces during that time. 

In case anyone wonders what I play, I have recently played for this teacher the Myra Hess "Jesu", Stardust, Stomping at the Savoy, a suite from Fritz Lehar's "Merry Widow," and several selections from Edward MacDowell's "Woodland Sketches." 

Some of this I play okay, and sometimes I just don't have the technique to play it as perfectly as it deserves.  Of course, we all do our best.  Thanks again for the replies. 

[pianistimo]

why are senior citizens exempt from playing pieces at 'performance' level.  if i was your teacher - you'd kick butt.  as it is now -she is letting you have too much control.  what you need is someone to whip you into shape.  what do you want?  to play measly pieces and claim you are learning from this lady?  one piece per week?  this is lame.  if you want to work 'pavane for a dead princess' - work it until you have it completely learned and performance ready.  then, we stick you in with the children and you play last.  if you do not measure up - the children laugh.

[hodi]

IAs I continued to play, she took a small packet of carrot sticks out of her purse and began crunching them.  In fairness, she did keep her attention on what I was doing, but still, it was distracting. 

ok, she is  TOTALLY WEIRD !
i suggest you should get rid of her...
it seems that she doesn't care about u at all..

[alzado]

pianistimo -- you write as follows:  why are senior citizens exempt from playing pieces at 'performance' level.  if i was your teacher - you'd kick butt.  as it is now -she is letting you have too much control.  what you need is someone to whip you into shape.  what do you want?  to play measly pieces and claim you are learning from this lady?  one piece per week?  this is lame.  if you want to work 'pavane for a dead princess' - work it until you have it completely learned and performance ready.  then, we stick you in with the children and you play last.  if you do not measure up - the children laugh.

I'm sure you have to be kidding, and I just assume you are. 

If she is letting me have too much control, do you think it would be better that she should select the pieces that I play?  How about assigning me scales and exercises?  Would she put little stickers in my method book each time I completed a piece?

What she does do is to identify shortcomings in my technique and show me what is needed.  I do try to improve, but I doubt I am capable of EVER playing as well as she does.  With the Pavane, she showed me the need to bring out the melody with the right hand; with the Jesu, she was able to point out that I was pedaling it wrong.  And so on. 

Thanks to her I do play BETTER, which is about all that is reasonable. 

I really don't mind the children laughing at me.  I know, when I wait to go in for my lesson, there are children all over the place.  Then when I leave the studio, more children are waiting to come in.  I really enjoy them, and I don't feel all that uncomfortable with them.

I definitely plan to be patient and work with the new teacher for a couple of months.  The problem isn't that she can't teach -- it may be at my age that I am going to have difficulty implementing the technique she tries to convey. 

I do plan to make one non-negotiable demand --  that she share the darned carrot sticks!

[m1469]

Thanks to her I do play BETTER

This is actually all that really matters.

I definitely plan to be patient and work with the new teacher for a couple of months.  The problem isn't that she can't teach -- it may be at my age that I am going to have difficulty implementing the technique she tries to convey. 

Bring her your questions.

[dss]

why are senior citizens exempt from playing pieces at 'performance' level. if i was your teacher - you'd kick butt. as it is now -she is letting you have too much control. what you need is someone to whip you into shape. what do you want? to play measly pieces and claim you are learning from this lady? one piece per week? this is lame. if you want to work 'pavane for a dead princess' - work it until you have it completely learned and performance ready. then, we stick you in with the children and you play last. if you do not measure up - the children laugh.

My thoughts exactly.

[timothy42b]

  what you need is

I don't agree that the teacher is the one to decide what the student needs.

Musically, sure, you go to a teacher because they know more than you about the subject. 

But what you "need" also depends on your goals and your learning style.

[keyofc]

Alzado - I think you are being very reasonable about those carrot sticks!   Make sure you get some too!

Truthfully though - if you can't connect with her at all - I would dump her. 
I would doubt she knew the piece - or perhaps she knew it - but was unsure of how it would sound - so she did not want to commit by answering you.  A perfectionist instead of a coach.  She was probably sightreading it -while you were playing it.  I sightread while my student is playing a pieceI've never learned.  You just move your fingers or imagine moving them to the notes while examining the structure.

But I will say - "You know, this is a piece I have never tackled" - Some people won't.

It's important though - that you're getting better - But I think the lesson should be enjoyable.  Not necessarily every minute of it, but on the whole.

Everyone is different, but I would dump her even if I was learning from her - unless I was making such huge progress that it compensate for her attitude.  There are many good teachers out there.

Observation is very important -but so is communication.  She sounds like a nut to me.

[amelialw]

it's always very important that you and your teacher can connect in a way and that you have the same goals, only then can u excel

[ivoryplayer_amf]

I am going to go back to the original thread...

let me preface what I'm about to say with this...I do not want any of you know it alls to start bashing on what i'm going to say.  This is purely my opinion and thoughts that I have had, which means there is no real argument toward them.

I imagine Beethoven to be like your teacher.  He might have been so preoccupied with other things that sometimes it wouldd SEEM as though he wasn't paying attention or could care less about you.  maybe you do have to prepare more with this teacher....But they have something to offer.  This problem is not of the piano teacher but with you.  Meaning----if you have a problem with her style, her way of life thne by all means drop her.  It is in your right to do so.  But do not drop her because of what you consider a flaw.  If you want to give her a chance then you need to learn how to verbalize your thoughts to her.  Maybe she feels intemidated by such an older person.  Maybe she is going through something right now.  Or maybe-(*unlikely but maybe)- she is a genius and has a great way a bout her. 

I would really like to see you dig a little deeper in her mind before you drop her.  I have had a teacher like her and loved her.  It was so intriging to me as to what she may offer next.

Another ofmy piano teachers had a teacher that came from Germany and she never heard her play one single note...yet my piano teacher is brilliant.

[alzado]

Thanks to everyone, including keyofc and IvoryPlayer.

I like IvoryPlayer's suggestion that possibly I intimidate her.  I THINK she just graduated from her 4-year program in May, judging from some things she said.

That would make her about 22.   I am 66.  She is rather new to her chosen career of teaching piano.

I have four children.  All four are older than my teacher.  In fact, my youngest is 26. 

I do believe I am going to be tactful and yet frank, and try to suggest to the teacher that we can surely work together, but we must be willing to communicate verbally.  And we must share the carrot sticks.

I hope to take a sandwich baggie with carrot sticks in my shirt pocket.  If she starts crunching them, I am going to take mine and put them down on Key A 0.  That is, low A.

If she crunches, I crunch.  I think the best communication would be if I just said nothing, and acted as if this were the most normal thing in the world.

A crunch for a crunch, and a tooth for a tooth. 

[m1469]

I actually don't see what the problem is, exactly 

Aside from the many pros I have read about this situation, all it seems is that she isn't initiating everything you would want in the ways that you think you want it; she is not reading your mind (or maybe she is  ). 

[Bob]

Sounds a little strange.  Carrots fighting carrots.

I would just be upfront and straightforward.  Tell the teacher what you want from lessons.  Maybe she's not the right teacher for you.

The first adult student I had was twenty-something years older than me.  AND a teacher besides that.  There were a few times my mindset was "This guy is older and knows more" but that quickly turned into "I'm the expert in this area and he's coming to me for that expertise."  The advice I gave ended up being more like "This is what I recommend you do and why.  If you practice this, you get these results."  And the rest was up to him.  He was busy and didn't always practice for whatever reason.  I can understand that.  And then I don't think he wanted to do grueling progressive practicing.  He wanted enjoyment.

[marco_from_brazil]

maybe she likes you. 

[timothy42b]

A crunch for a crunch, and a tooth for a tooth. 

Look, sometimes a carrot is just a carrot.  I think you're reading too much into the eating bit.  I would let that go as a side issue, relatively unimportant. 

If you're frustrated by not getting sufficient verbal guidance to know what she wants you to do better, that's a whole different story.  That you should address directly.

But the snacking is considered rude in some cultures and completely natural in others, and I'd be inclined to just let it go.  She may have no time at all for lunch, and while she's attending to you she's using a carrot to keep herself going. 

Or........I gotta admit, it's possible she's hot for you, and she's using the carrot to keep herself distracted........??

[Bob]

I've seen/had teachers eat during class.  It was just that they were booked back-to-back and didn't have a time slot for lunch or a snack. 

[thalberg]

Well at 66 I think you deserve to enjoy your lessons.  If this doesn't happen soon, change teachers.

I do like the carrot sticks idea though.  I would laugh so hard if one of my students did that.

[alzado]

As the latest chapter in the story, I attended my lesson Monday but this teacher never showed.  It is a holiday week here, and she may have had some social conflicts -- but clearly, she should have called her students to indicate she was not going to be giving lessons.

Another thing --  Malya writes, Aside from the many pros I have read about this situation, all it seems is that she isn't initiating everything you would want in the ways that you think you want it; she is not reading your mind (or maybe she is  ).  

Is this some sort in innuendo?  If you want to say something, just say it.  I dislike these catty comments.

-------------------

I am already thinking about a search for another teacher.  Being "stood up" at the Monday lesson is just one more aggravation to add to the lesson-long silences, carrot eating, and similar irritations. 

A sincere thank-you to all who replied.  You helped me sort through this mess and make some decisions. 

[m1469]

Another thing --  Malya writes, Aside from the many pros I have read about this situation, all it seems is that she isn't initiating everything you would want in the ways that you think you want it; she is not reading your mind (or maybe she is  ).  

Is this some sort in innuendo?  If you want to say something, just say it.  I dislike these catty comments. 

My sincere apologies, alzado, to cause you discomfort, however, I have not meant anything I have said to be "catty" nor otherwise derogatory.  Furthermore, I have said exactly what I have meant to say, and have expected that if you have any questions, you would ask -- which you have not done until now.  But instead of asking what I might mean or where I am coming from, you have been accusatory and defensive.  In the case with what I have said, what you seem to be percieving, is simply not happening.  I am actually trying to help.  Which, to be blunt, I suspect may be a similar problem between you and your teacher.

The problem is, there is little way to know for sure what is going on in your teacher's head, and it seems to me that you may be jumping to conclusions (but, of course, I don't really know the situation ... and we, here, only "know" your side of it and what you are choosing to tell us through this internet forum).  From what I have read from you thus far, I think that you are a serious student, and I think that any (serious) teacher would be able to read this from you right off. 

I also think that your own musical intentions are fairly clear in your mind, and when/if they are not, you are seeking clarity (not everybody is).  There are several ways for a teacher to "deal" with and "handle" a student like that, and it can be very tricky, believe it or not  , to know how to *best* serve somebody "like this" and their entire growth (and yes, YOUR entire growth as an individual) -- and, honestly, often with somebody who is as brimming as you seem to be, the approach that less is more is one of the most respectful (to you) ways (disclaimer :  though it is not the *only* way and will not *always* serve the entire purpose).

As I have stated, I actually think there are a lot of pros to the situation as you have described it.   You are welcome to ask of me what those are, however, I have generally been under the impression that you are mostly uninteresed in that perspective (since you have not asked nor even "toyed" with what I have said to you before now).  I also suspect there's a lot more that can be talked about with regard to all of this ...

As far as her recent "no show" ... I will admit that I am pretty much unforgiving if/when that happens, however, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt if I don't know the person very well or if their track record is fairly clean.  It is possible that she had an emergency, however, that may not be the case -- the point at this stage of the game is that you don't *really* know.

Thanks for the update and good luck !

[flashcat]

Alzado, having only recently wandered into the room and having read through the various posts offered on this thread, I gently suggest you find a more professional teacher. You can say something very general like "I found a teacher closer to my home" (or "one that fits better with my schedule" or whatever you feel sounds appropriate. You could also terminate the relationship without giving any reason at all. Simply say "I have decided to cancel my lesson time and will not be rescheduling for the fore seeable future. Thank you for the time you have spent with me." And leave it at that.

Eating during lessons is rude, plain and simple. Regardless of how tightly booked she may be, none of us should alllow ourselves to be so tightly booked that we do not leave room for common good manners. She should schedule herself appropriate *breaks* into her lesson schedule. (I can't help but wonder if a teacher who eats during lessons also eventually feels the need to wander off for random bathroom breaks ......)

The non-support and lack of contructive criticism also is a concern. If a student openly asks a specific question, again we need only look to *good manners* as our guide to determine that a teacher should be able to come up with something helpful to say.

The no-show, I feel, is the deciding factor. Even if it were an emergency, she (or perhaps the paramedics?) could have left a note taped to the door to advise you of the situation. In the case of a true emergency, a follow-up apologetic phone call as soon as possible would be the least she could have offered. (Unless, of course, the poor thing is still unconscious.....)
In two recent examples I myself had family emergencies that caused me to cancel lessons rather abruptly. In one case, I had to take my daughter to the emergency room, so I left a note on the door saying "due to an unforeseen emergency, I need to cancel all lessons today. Please check your answering machine to find out more" Then I called each student and left messages of apology and explaination. In another case, I had to fly out of state to stay with my father who was suddenly hospitalized. Again, phone calls were made that very day, even as I was being driven to the airport.

Even if she does not in any way have even the slightest clue that she has left you an unhappy student and may be completely unaware of your frustrations, it is still okay to terminate the lessons. All teachers know that sometimes, through no-one's fault, some teacher-student (or parent) relationships just don't work out. If she is a mature person, she will understand this. If she takes it personally or gets emotional, all the more proof of her lack of professionalism.

Every student deserves a teacher with whom he feels comfortable.

Best of luck on your future musical endevours

[Bob]

No show by a teacher?  Ouch.   They would owe you a lesson then.  Tack one on at the end of the term.

I always made sure the student and parents knew when the next lesson was, esp when a holiday appeared and screwed things up.  I think at one point I even printed a sheet off for the whole month and the next month so confusion was eliminated.  And I found out about vacations right away.

[m1469]

This thread is becoming increasingly difficult to take seriously and believe.  One thing that I have noticed from the very beginning is that people are acting as though she is not answering questions, when it seems that the only question even asked was whether or not she was "familiar" with the piece that was going to be played.  What kind of question is that for your very teacher ... LOL ?     It is either a sign of not trusting her "expertise" to begin with, and somehow testing her, or it is simply a form of "chit chat" on a subject that is not meant for that kind of chit chat, but rather for study under these circumstances.   I think this is silly behavior and could be taken as bad manners.

In any case, I would think that what she shows you would be enough to answer that question.  There is not only one form of communication.  Also, even if she were not familiar with the particular piece does not mean that she has nothing to offer, as she is presumably familiar with the physical acts of playing the piano and with musical thinking in general, both of which would apply to any piece.   

Now, alzado, this question that I mentioned above is the only example you have given of a question that you have asked in the 8 weeks (?) you have been taking lessons.  Is that the reality of the circumstances ?  If that is true, then I am sorry to say but the lack of communication is on your part.  You are going to need to communicate better about what it is that you want to know, end of story.  If that is not true and you have been more forthcoming, yourself, with whatever questions you may have, and she is STILL not answering those in ANY way, then that is another thing.  But, from what you have described it doesn't sound like that is happening in the least.

Whether you stay with this teacher or not, what I have mentioned in this post is a good thing for students to realize.

One last thing, she may have answered your inquiry by calling you, but that doens't mean you had to decide to study with her.  YOU still made the decision -- so, if you don't like her teaching style, why did you decide to become her student in the first place ?

Also, where are you ?  I am growing quite impatient and irritated that you are not responding to me and answering my questions in the way that I would like you to be.  I'm just positive that you, of all people, would understand and respect that  .  I'm seriously thinking about dropping this thread.

[alzado]

Sorry, I have not been on the forum much recently.

Well, some do not find the thread very constructive.  Maybe it was just a poor question to surface on the forum.  If so, apologies.

I have continued to take lessons from this teacher.  Based on some things I got from the postings on the forum, I have tried to have four or five good questions when I go to each lesson.  She is so very quiet and says so little, but the questions will elicit very intelligent and helpful answers from her.

I have been playing some transcriptions of classic, orchestral jazz pieces. (Example: "Stomping at the Savoy" -- Benny Goodman)   Now, I sometimes just stop right in the middle of the stave and ask the teacher, "what is happening here?  Why is the timing different?"  And so forth.

We also talk about series of half-tone chord progressions in these jazz pieces and similar theory-related questions.

Because the teacher is so young (early 20s -- just graduated from her university program) she really is not familiar with many classic old pieces -- just our age difference.  Sometimes this gives her a fresh perspective. 

I believe it just took some time to get in synch with the style of this teacher.  For one thing, she does not stop me if I hit a wrong note.  She agreed with me that this destroys the flow and the phrasing of the piece, and she waits to the conclusion to make her comments.  This was an irritant with my former teacher -- stopping me cold when I failed to flat or sharp a single note in a chord. 

My new teacher also stands up and walks around the room while I am playing.  She said she sometimes gets a better sense of my "feel" for the piece by NOT scanning every note on the page, or watching my hands, or whatever.

All in all, I believe it is just a process of transitioning to a very different teacher. 

One thing I like, she NEVER tells me I did well (or in some cases poorly).  She will sometimes say "um-hm" in a kind of bright cheerful way, and that is her approbation.  One person who posted here said that professional teachers (e.g., in university settings) rarely praise very much.  It just is not expected.  They just expect you to be competent.

Sometimes before I even start a piece for her, I will tell her of some struggles.  Like, I will say, I have great trouble with this passage , because I have difficulty playing it at speed.  When I try to play it at speed, I'm right at the ragged edge, and sometimes I will hit some wrong notes.   Or I will say, I re-wrote the left hand here, because I couldn't get the original score to sound like anything.  She is very non judgmental about such things.  So when I do play the piece, she sort of knows where I am at. 

Well, the long and short of it is that I think we are getting better acquainted with each other's style.  I plan to stick with this teacher for some time.  Her life is in some transition right now, and she may leave the city in the months ahead.  Time will tell.  I hate the idea of having to adapt to yet ANOTHER new teacher, but that is the real world. 

Sorry if I upset or offended anyone.  Like I say, maybe the friction in this thread has to do with the question I posed just being vague or sort of self-contradictory -- and I am sorry.  I do appreciate the good comments from all.  Didn't mean to offend, although I may have done so.

 

[m1469]

Hi, alzado.  Sounds interesting -- I have been wondering how it's going and I am happy that you have given an update .

Cheers !