How patriotic are you?

[opus10no2]

At the heart of many peoples idea of patriotism is a sense of one's own land, and one's own people being more important and 'better' than others.

I've asked myself some interesting questions.

If I were in a situation where I could only save one person, and 2 people - one from my own country, and the other - a foreigner/member of another race...without knowing either, who would I be inclined to save?

I don't know what it is, I don't like to think of my own land and people as superior, but I have a feeling of real love for my environment, being born here and feeling connected to the soil I stand upon.
If pushed, I would rather have any other place annihilated than my own place, and the loyalty I feel makes me wonder is this feeling is common, and importantly - is it bad, or good? Has it been the cause for some wars, or are other issues more causal in the bringing about of wars..

[pianistimo]

i bet when it comes down to it - you'd save whoever was the first in line to be saved.  it doesn't come down to us, really.  a lot of times it's circumstance.  take war situations.  whoever looks the likeliest to survive is probably given the most attention.  firemen and rescue workers are trained to figure out who to pick first.  maybe you should take a class. 

it's funny you mention this because i had a dream the other day (probably prompted from  watching rescue 911) where somebody was sliding past me on this big slide (like a magic mountain waterslide with four slides together)and i was supposed to rescue them.  i couldn't quite reach them and was wondering where they went and why i was going at a snails pace when they whisked right past.

[zheer]

How patriotic are you?


   Not patriotic at all, since am a forigner (all my life) also Since the country of my Origin consider me as an un-wonted gest, i have no rispect or compasion for any ov them.
    In-fact i is only remain faithful to a number of people that have been my true friends .

[shortyshort]

I feel that I am very patriotic.

Pity the British government is not the same. 

[wishful thinker]

Fear not Shorty,

There'll always be an England
And England shall be free!
If England means as much to you
As England means to me!

 

[counterpoint]

People are people - it doesn't matter in which country they are born (or in which country their parents are born).

[ahinton]

Fear not Shorty,

There'll always be an England
And England shall be free!
If England means as much to you
As England means to me!

There’ll always be a Scotland
As Gordon Brown knows well,
Now he’s left his constituents
In disenfranchised hell.

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

On the contrary Sir Thalistair, mr Brown's consituents are grossy over enfranchised.

'Tis we poor Englishmen that are disenfranchised (I refer of course to the West Lothian question).

Mighty England who has not yet awaken, may soon stir and rise up! Or then again, why not put the kettle on and we'll all have a nice cup of tea 

[shortyshort]

why not put the kettle on and we'll all have a nice cup of tea 

Don't forget the sticky buns   

[ahinton]

On the contrary Sir Thalistair, mr Brown's consituents are grossy over enfranchised.

What I meant by this (and the constraints of the verse form didn't really allow its proper expression) was that Brown himself has no longer the ability to represent his constituents as a direct consequence of his new high office, rather than that those constituents are disenfranchised per se.

'Tis we poor Englishmen that are disenfranchised (I refer of course to the West Lothian question).

Well, I'm sorry for you poor Englishmen in your real or perceived disenfranchisment, of course, but then I am a Scot living in England and am not therefore entitled to vote in Scotland anyway, so I suppose you could say that I am doubly disenfranchised which, if true, wouldn't really bother me that much, since (a) we're all governed from Bruxelles anyway and (b) I've not found a political party worth voting for in living memory.

Mighty England who has not yet awaken, may soon stir and rise up!

Parts of it had certainly better do just that, lest they becone submerged in flood water (no, Susan - PLEASE keep out of this one!)...

Or then again, why not put the kettle on and we'll all have a nice cup of tea 

Yes, a "quintessentially" English thing to do, of course - and thank God's Empire for the Indian tea - but why put on your own kettle in these enlightened and affluent times? Why not go to the Pump Room in Bath and enjoy the delights of a full English afternoon tea to the sounds of a piano trio? A couple of hundred quid a head should just about do it, I reckon...

While on that subject, I should say that, on an occasion some years ago when taking afternoon tea at a rather posh London hotel (not something I do more than once or twice every lifetime or so), my Scottishness came to the fore when I felt impelled to mention that the problem with one of the items on offer stemmed from the fact that whoever had made it had falied to appreciate the difference between a stone and a scone...

Best,

Alistair

[quasimodo]

Patriotism is the plague of humanity.

[prometheus]

At the heart of many peoples idea of patriotism is a sense of one's own land, and one's own people being more important and 'better' than others.

Countries have only existed for a brief amount of time. It was invented in the west in about late 18th century.

If I were in a situation where I could only save one person, and 2 people - one from my own country, and the other - a foreigner/member of another race...without knowing either, who would I be inclined to save?

Isn't that quite an easy question? And thus also not that interesting? Unless of course tons of people answer that they rather save one person instead of two.

I don't know what it is, I don't like to think of my own land and people as superior, but I have a feeling of real love for my environment, being born here and feeling connected to the soil I stand upon.

So? I don't really see a conflict here. You like the place where you grow up because you have a connection with that place. Not because the people that live there are somehow superior.

If pushed, I would rather have any other place annihilated than my own place, and the loyalty I feel makes me wonder is this feeling is common, and importantly - is it bad, or good?

Isn't that just pure innocent selfishness? Or do you mean you rather see a square mile of a metropolis destroyed than a square mile of your local rural town?

Has it been the cause for some wars, or are other issues more causal in the bringing about of wars..

Well, your loyalty is only local, it seems. So it isn't even nationalism.

I think that nationalism is 'artificial'. It is taught by the state. And yes, it is bad and can be dangerous. It is one of the tools used by the state to control and mobilize their subjects.

[thalbergmad]

I am very patriotic.

I am saddened at the multi cultural sewer that parts of my Country have turned into.

Thal

[prometheus]

Do you really thing everything stays the same way as it was when you were born-grown up?

Read some history.

[thalbergmad]

No, but it is the speed of change and the effect it has on people that is important.

Read some newspapers.

Thal

[ahinton]

I am very patriotic.

I am saddened at the multi cultural sewer that parts of my Country have turned into.

Thal

Thal, I am genuinely so sorry; I would not have even thought of travelling south of that wall, even at the relatively tender and innocent age that I did, had I any idea in advance that you'd be so offended at the "multi-cultural sewer" which immigrants like me might swell by their presence in England - really, I wouldn't...

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

.

Read some newspapers.

Thal

   Ammmmmmmmmm, well i've read a lot of newspapers and yeah same shmitz day after day,year after year. I've heard a number of people talk about America being the land of opportunity, one day if thingz get really bad i might pack my bags and fly to America. Am F**king sure i is not welcome in this country.

[thalbergmad]

one day if thingz get really bad i might pack my bags and fly to America. Am F**king sure i is not welcome in this country.

I thought you hated America old chap. How do you know if you would be welcome there?

Personally, i now hate England so much i am wanting to emigrate. Greenland looks rather nice.

Me will write to the Danish Embassy. Fancy doing a bit of fishing.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Thal, I am genuinely so sorry; I would not have even thought of travelling south of that wall, even at the relatively tender and innocent age that I did, had I any idea in advance that you'd be so offended at the "multi-cultural sewer" which immigrants like me might swell by their presence in England - really, I wouldn't...

Well unless i am mistaken, you have not produced vast amounts of offspring so the effect you have had is minimal

Unchecked immigration is one thing, but when they breed like flies, the problem increases.

Our present government has rattled on for years about celebrating our diversity and celebrating multi culturism. If it is not yet illegal, i would like to celebrate being English just for a few seconds.

Thal

[nicco]

I thought you hated America old chap. How do you know if you would be welcome there?

Personally, i now hate England so much i am wanting to emigrate. Greenland looks rather nice.

Me will write to the Danish Embassy. Fancy doing a bit of fishing.

Thal

Feel free to visit norway sometime. No better place for fishing. And plenty of mountains to suit your mountain-climbing needs

[prometheus]

You are immigrating because there are too many foreigners in your country?

*shakes head*

[opus10no2]

Isn't that just pure innocent selfishness? Or do you mean you rather see a square mile of a metropolis destroyed than a square mile of your local rural town?

Perhaps not, just an equally populous area.

The thing I tried to bring up by this thread is the differences between culturalism, true racism, and nationalism, etc.

Whether or not the leaders of the world now and in times past have been motivated by greed, lust for power, dominance, or not...

The PEOPLE who faught wars, and died, died for their own people and their own lands.

If they had not done so, if people had never put up a fight, would the world have been a better place?

[prometheus]

You have to examine the attacker. They have to justify starting a war. And they either need nationalism, religion, a personality cult or something else to invoke irrational behavior  to get their soldiers to invade another country and kill people.


Also, one often things that if a country is invaded, conquered and occupied this means they lose all their liberties. This may be true. But the one ruler or master state may be replaced by another ruler or master state but this time one ruling from a different capital.

So in that case why would a citizen fight for their master? A citizen should fight for himself.

Fighting 'for your country' is a silly idea. A country is a set of imaginary lines. They exist in maps and in the heads of rulers and they are enforced by military power.

The idea of a nation is already obsolete. Just ask Thalbergmad...

So yes, if they must people should fight for their own community.


Now you may counter that if small communities only fight to defend their own community they are easily defeated by a larger force. This is true. But the question is; what is right? It would be better if people didn't grant warlords their service as soldiers. If they do some individuals may gain from this. But in the end it will cause suffering.


So yes, in terms of war this is a bit of a Prisoner's dilemma thing. And we all know what the best solution to that game is.



The problem can get really complex. For example, in a case of many warring states in a nation it may be the best if there is one strong leader that defeats all the other warlords and brings peace to the land. Otherwise the war will not be resolved and the nation will continue to suffer war.

But the whole: 'it is your duty to serve and fight for your country' is non-sense. Always. Now it may sometimes reduce suffering if you do fight. But it is very hard to know beforehand. But you can also reason that you will just refuse to fight and that the problem lies with those that do not.


For example, what if there is a 'prisoner's dilemma'-style game and each turn one tries to cooperate while the other always betrays. What do you say to those people?

[ahinton]

Well unless i am mistaken, you have not produced vast amounts of offspring so the effect you have had is minimal

Indeed, you are not mistaken - in fact, I have not only produced none at all (which is hardly surprising, since I am not a woman) but am also responsible for the production of none; it was, however, the numbers of Scots travelling and remaining south of the border that I had in mind rather than the numbers of offspring that any of them might produce or help to produce thereafter...

Unchecked immigration is one thing, but when they breed like flies, the problem increases.

I'm having abit of trouble figuring out how immigration itself, whether checked or unchecked, can "breed like flies"...

Our present government has rattled on for years about celebrating our diversity and celebrating multi culturism.

Not to mention "cohesion", "inclusivity" and the the rest of those portmanteau words whose practical use and meaningfulness exists nowhere outside the next PR person's portmanteau...

If it is not yet illegal, i would like to celebrate being English just for a few seconds.
Thal

Your remarks above that you
"now hate England so much i am wanting to emigrate"
and that
"Greenland looks rather nice"
would appear to suggest otherwise but, in any case, for the record, I am not aware that the celebration of Englishness contravenes any English law; I cannot speak for whether or not it may flout any Danish law applicable in Greenland so, if you are similarly uncertain on this point and interested in ascertaining the position before emigrating there, you might be wise to add a question about that when you
"write to the Danish Embassy"
as you plan to do.

However Greenland may look, do bear in mind that there are, as yet, no cheap flights between that country and UK with Flybejet or Ryaneasy (nor is there any US equivalent between Nuuk and Newark NJ, either), so living there will substantially increase the difficulty that you appear already to have in getting to recitals by Jonathan Powell in London - even those that occur on Saturdays. It will also make it even harder for you to get to St. Kilda, unless you're a more powerful swimmer than I'd thought you to be.

There is internet connectivity there, however (TLD being ".gl"), so at least we won't have to miss your unique presence on this forum when you have left England; quite how England - especially Gravesend - will manage without you after you've become a Kalaallit Nunaat immigrant I have less than no idea, however...

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

   As far as i know, and the number of people i've spoken with, England was/is created by workers from all over the world, also much of its wealth is in-fact the wealth of other nation. What we have today is a growing under class that are un-educated ,agressive,and willing to use violence to reach political ends. I dont understand this frustration,since those that do have power and wealth and who are still runing the nation are the English.
     Luckly planet earth does not belong to the English nor the American and luckly we do not have a master race . What we live in today is, a world dominated by Europe and the USA. The mid-east as far as one can remember has been in bloody war with itself, Asia and the far east have the potential of becoming a super power if united. However some of the most economically deprived and worse of part of the world (today) is Africa.

[wishful thinker]

Feel free to visit norway sometime. No better place for fishing. And plenty of mountains to suit your mountain-climbing needs

Can one get a kebab at two in the morning there?

[shortyshort]

Can one get a kebab at two in the morning there?

No, and if you want a beer it'll cost you a tenner.

[ahinton]

   As far as i know, and the number of people i've spoken with, England was/is created by workers from all over the world, also much of its wealth is in-fact the wealth of other nation. What we have today is a growing under class that are un-educated ,agressive,and willing to use violence to reach political ends. I dont understand this frustration,since those that do have power and wealth and who are still runing the nation are the English.

It's not quite a simple as that (especially with a Scots Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer in charge), but I accept that you do have a point.

Luckly planet earth does not belong to the English nor the American and luckly we do not have a master race .

It's just as well that, as with the internet, it's not wholly owned by anyone.

What we live in today is, a world dominated by Europe and the USA. The mid-east as far as one can remember has been in bloody war with itself, Asia and the far east have the potential of becoming a super power if united. However some of the most economically deprived and worse of part of the world (today) is Africa.

Again, it's not quite as black-and-white as you paint it here, but there's undoubtedly rather more than a grain of truth in what you write. You don't mention Russia, so it's unclear whether you regard it as part of Asia, part of Europe or a nation permanently destined to be divided against itself for the very reason that it is part of both. You also omit mention of South America. And do you include the Antipodes in "Asia"?

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

. You don't mention Russia, so it's unclear whether you regard it as part of Asia, part of Europe or a nation permanently destined to be divided against itself for the very reason that it is part of both. You also omit mention of South America. And do you include the Antipodes in "Asia"?

Best,

Alistair

     South America, or some might call Latin America is still (America). Geographically speaking and just to keep things simple lets consider Russia as a European nation like Turky,whether its part of the EU or not, its more european than lets say Kurdistan or Afganistan.
    As far as i know Asia, is distinctly different from the rest of the world,culturally,linguisticly and historically, so these factors have to be considerd.

[nicco]

Can one get a kebab at two in the morning there?

Yep. Often bought when going home from the city 

[thalbergmad]

   As far as i know, and the number of people i've spoken with, England was/is created by workers from all over the world

Indeed, you are correct.

But it is the rate of immigration to a country that is already densely populated in some parts that is the problem.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

However Greenland may look, do bear in mind that there are, as yet, no cheap flights between that country and UK with Flybejet or Ryaneasy

Ever heard of ships?

I would not fly, as my Banjos would take me over the weight limit.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

You are immigrating because there are too many foreigners in your country?

*shakes head*

No, I am emigrating as are thousands of English.

Shake your head as much as you want, but if you had experienced the effects of Illegal Immigration as i have, you might have a different outlook.

If your 85 year old aunt had been violently mugged for her pension by a piece of Romanian turd that should not have been in the Country in the first place, again you might have a different outlook.

Again, i want to make it clear that it is "ILLEGAL" immigration that i have a problem with. Controlled immigration has got benefits.

Thal

[zheer]

If your 85 year old aunt had been violently mugged for her pension by a piece of Romanian turd that should not have been in the Country in the first place, again you might have a different outlook.

   

    As far as i know immigrants from Europe, immigrate due to economic reason, to earn a living ,money job ect ect. Immigrants from the mid-east,immigrate due to political reason, war ect ect.
    I personally dont give a shmitz why where or who immigrates to which ever part of the world, however if some one attacks me, i dont give a shmitz if it,s a black man ,white man polish or a shmitzkurdish man blue man orange man or a yellow man, that man is a shmitz dead man.

[thalbergmad]

As far as i know immigrants from Europe, immigrate due to economic reason, to earn a living ,money job ect ect.

Or to sit on their arses and get paid for doing nothing.

Completely agree with the 2nd part of your post and the man who attacked my Aunt would have been, if i had got my hands on him.

Thal

[zheer]

the man who attacked my Aunt would have been, if i had got my hands on him.

Thal

   Yes, i don't doubt that.

[prometheus]

Illegal immigrants are largely a problem because they are illegal; they can't have jobs, etc.


They are either ripped off by someone that employs them illegally or they have to be criminals themselves.

[mephisto]

I want all Norwegians kicked out of my country! One time there was this Norwegian man, and he like hit my 10 year old little brother in the head! Let's get them away from here! I

[rc]

Or to sit on their arses and get paid for doing nothing.

I'm not too fond of this sort of thing either.  They could make welfare a little tougher to get ahold of - I know a girl who gets a job every few months for a day or two then goes back on welfare.  Says she can't handle the workers, hours, or whatever and it fits the paperwork to keep her on welfare.  She's done this for as long as I've known her.

Otherwise a very sweet girl and she's never made a fuss about her situation around me, though suffers the malady of hating anyone who makes money ('them', 'out there').

Overall I have some interest in the society I live in, contribute to, and am a part of.  It's treated me well enough.  Patriotic? sure.

[thalbergmad]

They are either ripped off by someone that employs them illegally or they have to be criminals themselves.

That is undoubtedly a problem. I do not deny that there are some employers that are happy to use illegals and pay them £10 for a days work.

Despite the threat of hefty fines, rogue employers do not appear to be deterred.

I do not blame people for wanting to illegally enter the UK. They should not blame us for wanting to keep them out.

Thal

[rc]

Illegal immigrants are largely a problem because they are illegal; they can't have jobs, etc.


They are either ripped off by someone that employs them illegally or they have to be criminals themselves.

Because illegal immigrants are law abiding to begin with

Ya can't just let anyone come into your home.  I'd like to know someone's not poison before letting them into my environment.

[thalbergmad]

I'd like to know someone's not poison before letting them into my environment.

How true.

London now has some of the highest TB rates in Europe.

I wonder why?

Thal

[leuthold]

as a turkish i can say yes i m patriotic too much
zheer, why are you so interested in pkk,turkish army,greek power etc. on youtube??

[ahinton]

How true.

London now has some of the highest TB rates in Europe.

I wonder why?

Thal

Probably because of all those dastardly Scots coming down to England, taking the Englanders' jobs, filling up their hospital beds, etc...

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

as a turkish i can say yes i m patriotic too much
zheer, why are you so interested in pkk,turkish army,greek power etc. on youtube??

   why , well ammmmmmm i've been reading a lot of non fiction/history books on the EU and the mid-east just to expand ones mental horizon a little (as you do), thats all nothing personal.
   BTW you say you are turkish, if so do you live in turky, cuz it is truly a great nation, it is a shame that their is so much conflict between the turks and kurds. I believe this conflict began once the Ottoman empire came to an end and Ataturk came to power and created the republic of turky. Anyway, wont bore you with the detail .
 

[leuthold]

i just wondered my friend  just, i didnt expect to see the videos about turkish army in your favourites...nothing special   and... the kurds are our brothes, we are all against to pkk(terrorist kurds) i believe that we will end this terrorism in northern iraq with together...

[zheer]

... the kurds are our brothes, we are all against to pkk(terrorist kurds) i believe that we will end this terrorism in northern iraq with together...

    "kurds are our brothers" , how things have changed,cuz if you read some of the history books you will soon realize that Kurds and Turks have been spilling each others blood for many years, in-fact only recently has the Turkish goverment made it legal to speak and maintain the Kurdish identity in Turky, previously it was illegal to speak kurdish or to claim to be a kurd, one was murderd  or put in jail for life or tortured then killed (ethnic cleansing).In the words of ataturk " you are turks, but you have lived in the mountin for so long ,you have forgoten that you are a turk".
      Turky is a great nation, obviously in the past it had conflict with Armenia  the kurds the Greek, and the sad reality is their is still some tention in that part of the world. Anyway we are not politicians,so best avoid such things.  BTW AM GLAD YOU THINK OF THE KURDS AS BROTHERS IT'S THE WAY FORWARD ( I GESS )  
   

[leuthold]

you re right we re not politicians . just one thing...yes i know my history very well but   we re living in secular,democratic,stronger republic of Turkey now and Atatürk's nationalsm is different than another nationalism around the world. the people who created the Turkish Republic are called as Turkish nation so orthodoxes, catholics,kurds and even armenians that live in Turkey belong to turkish nation and we re brothers...  you cant learn Turkey from books especially from foreigner writers, you must live there 

[thalbergmad]

Probably because of all those dastardly Scots coming down to England, taking the Englanders' jobs, filling up their hospital beds, etc...

I don't object to Scots coming here, but i do object to them running the bloody Country.

Thal

[rallestar]

I would die for my country if I had to to defend it.

I sympatize with you thalbergmad. It seems everyone is so lost in this "multiculturalism" lie that they forget the country's historical background. As if diversity comes from people who look different, anyway - Those people in the governments who think so are the true racists.