PA: Could there be hope..?

[pianogeek_cz]

https://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/28/palestinian.pm/index.html 

At least one Arab leader has come to his senses, it seems... That looks like ground to work on. Maybe. Fatah as a whole is moderate only when compared to Iranian proxies like Hamas and Hezbollah  (or possibly Meretz or Hadesh, for that matter ), but that is still something. And, now there is a publicly announced alternative to terrorism for the Palestinians.

If... this Fayyad guy doesn't simply get overrun by the radicals (both radical leaders and the radical crowd...). Probably, in the current situation, yes. But I sincerely hope it's a sign of things to come.
___
Let's not forget, also, that there is still Olmert, fully capable of ruining anything close to a consistent and reasonable deal. 

[mephisto]

Err, first of all I am 100% certain that you really don't enough about this subject to even mention it.

Even though I am no super Hamas fan, at least they aren't corrupt and they do what they promise. Hamas won a LEGAL ELECTION(watched out by the UN, so that it wouldn't brake any rules). All the time Europe and America wanted arabian countries to have legal elections. The Palestinians were the first arabs to have a legal election and Hamas won. Just as simple as that. Hamas won. Than Europe and America weren't happy with the winners so they sanctioned Hamas and gave money to Fatah. And today hell is loose.
It has been AGES since Hamas did a suicide bombing or anything similar to that.

Dinner is waiting.....

[pianogeek_cz]

Um, I have done several papers on the subject. All in Czech, though, so I can hardly share them. I know people from both sides and talk to them regularly, I have newsletters coming from several local media... I'd say I do have a rough picture of what's going on. But let's cut out ad hominem arguments.

Did I get it right that you prefer Hamas to Fatah? I'm rather... disquieted by this thought. Do you also credit the sanctions against the Hamas-led government with responsibility for the current abysmal state of affairs? Accuse Europe and America of hypocrisy, first supporting free elections, then imposing sanctions against the winner?

Some of Hamas writings....
Their manifesto: https://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm
And highlited points: https://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Hamas has won legal elections... well, yes. What does that say, exactly? That hasn't stopped them from directing a very... unconventional educational system (Farfour...), for example. (As far as "watched by UN" is concerned, that would merit a discussion of its own, so let's leave that out of here. I'm NOT saying the elections weren't okay.) Legally, too, Abbas has dismantled the Unity government. So, legally, Hamas is now not in charge of the PA. By the way (I'm not sure here), didn't Hamas as the former ruling body have the responsibility to stop the quassam hail on Sderot?

Hamas are not corrupt... well, they don't really have to, they get enough from Iran, probably. As to Hamas keeping their word... I actually hope they won't be allowed to do so, as far as their political agenda is concerned. *shudders* Hamas (when you want to consider official things, this is from their press conference 29. 1., broadcast on Al-Jazeera) is willing to negotiate a long-term truce, if the following demands are met: withdrawal of Israel into pre-1967 lines, creation of linkage between Judea and Samaria and Gaza, and the release of all Palestinian prisoners. It is quite a ridiculous idea to think that Israel will accept their terms (although, ahem, Olmert, Livni...). That is, they don't want a two-state solution, what they (say they) want is an indefinite long-term truce. The terms they are demanding for -starting- to talk about a truce would significantly worsen the strategical position of Israel. Let's not forget that they have stated that they will never recognize the State of Israel and that they ultimately seek to destroy it... and let's not forget, also, that they are effectively an Iran proxy. Strategy? What does Ahmadinejad want? Sounds familiar?

Are you saying that Europe and America didn't respect the result of the elections they supported? They did recognize Hamas as the winner - and reacted accordingly. I, for one, wouldn't want to have my taxpayer money sent over to an organization with an agenda like *points to the links above* that.

The AGES of which you speak is a 6-month ceasefire, with only some minor violations near the beginning. Instead of spending money on blowing their own people plus a bunch of Israelis up, they are spending money on consolidating the infrastructure in Gaza; in the light of recent events that has acquired the meaning of kicking Fatah a$$es out as fast as possible. Plus, yes, our Farfour/Mickey friend, which is just the tip of the iceberg of Hamas-led education/infrastructure.

Fatah is corrupt, yes. So? That doesn't mean that this guy speaking out (regardless of his motives) to arrange with Israel somehow will not generate a response among the Palestinians. Some of them might start to think about it (probably the few with a relatively untainted education). _{On a slightly machiavellian side note, the corruptness of Fatah could maybe be exploited...}


To clarify my view, I don't think this Fayyad guy's public agenda will be successful... but it hints that, maybe, there will eventually be a way. That is, I believe, noteworthy. I'm counting how many days is he going to survive - maybe he'll beat the durability of some pre-Husseyni Arab accomodationists... 

[mephisto]

I recommend reading a book by Avi Shlaim - Iron wall or something like that.

[prometheus]

The solution to this problem lies with Israel and secondary with the US, not with Palestinians. Especially not now when there isn't any unity at all among the Palestinians.

But if there is something that needs to come from the Palestinians, I don't think Fatah can do it. Hamas can get a deal to end the occupation. Fatah can only accept Israel annexing the west bank.

[pianogeek_cz]

Well, if there is something that needs to come from the Palestinians, it's a change of attitude. Which means implementing a normal education system. Which is not very likely under Hamas.

Hamas can get a deal to end the occupation of Gaza and Judea and Samaria... with Kadima/Labor in charge, it's a Mabye, with Likud, it's probably a No Way. But will its demands stop at that? Both Iran and Hamas have repeatedly stated that they are bent on destroying Israel. There are reasons to believe that the concessions Israel is supposed to make to negotiate a truce with Hamas are demanded to undermine Israel's position in a potential war. Hamas is paid to NOT make peace with Israel.

Quoting the Hamas charter:
'[Peace]  initiatives,   and   so-called   peaceful   solutions   and
international conferences are in contradiction to the  principles  of
the Islamic Resistance Movement... (...)
There is no solution for the Palestinian problem  except  by
Jihad.' (Article 13)

Does that sound like they ultimately want to strike a deal acknowledging Israel's existence?

[mephisto]

Prometheus is correct.