Happy 60th Roswell

[thalbergmad]

Wow, 60 years since possibly the greatest event to happen on Earth (please do not respond pianistimo).

I must have read about 20 books on this subject and i still can't make my mind up whether it really happened or not. As time goes by i guess what happened will be shrouded in even more mystery claims, counter claims and cover ups.

Anyone else in here investigated this?. I would be interested to hear peoples views.

Thal

[pianistimo]

that's so 70's.  get over it.  unless you have a pic close up - nobody is going to believe it.  my neighbor in california was a special effects guy.  that basically opens and shuts the case.  we had these round mutli colored floating things in the sky near the state prison quite frequently (in lancaster, california).  i saw one several times personally myself.  never figured out exactly what it was.  i know it wasn't a star.  and it wasn't an airplane.  but, hey - they have airfields out there - and who knows what was being experimented with.  could be remote controlled flying saucers.

btw, we lived near the state prison.  i wasn't incarcerated when i saw it.  (never been incarcerated).

it was this sphere with multi-colored lights and did not fly straight in any direction - but was more like a helicopter.  it might stay in one spot - or go straight up - or move sideways - and then zoomed off.  it was so strange - i remember thinking - someone must have spiked my lemonade.  but, i hadn't drunk anything and was returning from the grocery store at 11 pm when it was dark.  used to shop late when i had second baby.

[pianistimo]

i can't remember if i got out of the car or just looked through the windshield - but i'm sure i saw this phenomenon at least twice.  i looked for traditional helicopter pattern.  for one thing - it would certainly land at the prison if it was a helicopter.  also, for blades and for shape.  it seemed that it was a distinct sphere with mulicolored lights rather than yellow or red which distinguish the helicopters (i think).  also, one zoomed off at one point way faster than a helicopter ever could.  it wasn't a falling star - because it was closer.   you could make out the sphere shape.  that's about it.

[thalbergmad]

(never been incarcerated).

Yet, and it probably won't be a prison.

Have you read any books on Roswell?

Thal

[pianistimo]

no. but i used to live near arizona (and my bro lived there).  all sorts of tecchie people live in those areas.  of course, there might be some truth to sightings of interesting flying machines - but getting abducted and returning. hmm. i'd like to get a radiation count on whomever was saying they were abducted.  so many books and movies came out of this.

[thalbergmad]

all sorts of tecchie people live in those areas. 

Maybe, but in 1947?

Thal

[pianistimo]

corroboration is the problem. if one person sees it - it's based on a sole account.  if several do - you have to discern if they were drinking or doing drugs.  people can see a lot of things.  and, to have the discernable 'parts' from these flying machines for analysis.

i did think about that passage in the bible in ezekiel 1:11-20  (vs. 17 'whenever they moved, they moved in any of their four directions, without turning as they moved.  as for their rims they were lofty and awesome, and the rims of all four of them were full of eyes round about.  and whenever the living beings moved, the wheels moved with them.  and whenever the living beings rose from the earth, the wheels rose also.  wherever the spirit was about to go, they would go in that direction.  and the wheels rose close beside them; for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.')

[thalbergmad]

corroboration is the problem. if one person sees it - it's based on a sole account.  if several do - you have to discern if they were drinking or doing drugs.  people can see a lot of things.  and, to have the discernable 'parts' from these flying machines for analysis.

Several people did see it, including farmers, Army personnel and others.

One of the Army men died recently and left an account of what he saw to be opened on his death. An article was published in the papers this week in the UK.

Thal

[pianistimo]

sleep deprivation is another thing that might cause reflections from a vehicle or airplane to look like something.  but, i tend to be like you and believe what someone in the army would say (as they are accustomed to sleep deprivation - and might not be affected by it like others).  and, farmers.  yes.  i would tend to believe they actually saw what they saw (unless mental).

i know for a fact, i was seeing what i did, too.  but, getting anyone to believe it - or calling up 911 and saying 'look up in the sky right now!'  i was too scared to say anything.  it wasn't scary per se.  just unusual.  it did 'stop, hover, move up and down - zoom off.'  how could someone tell anyone about a flying vehicle like that.  maybe boeing or some of those airline companies are building things that we don't know about?  or...

could they be what ezekiel saw?  spirit beings.  not human.

[thalbergmad]

Could be, seeing things in the sky in hardly a modern thing.

In the Middle ages it was firey crosses, not saucers.

I think Ex President Carter filed a UFO report.

Thal

[prometheus]

that's so 70's.  get over it.  unless you have a pic close up - nobody is going to believe it. 

Why so skeptical all the sudden? This isn't like you.

[pianistimo]

constantine saw the firey cross didn't he?  or was that someone else?  anyways, i watched a pbs thing on him last night.  interesting fellow  although he was responsible for the doctrine of 'original sin.'  he has this girlfriend for 10 years and then dtiches her by telling her sex is sinful and that doing it has only one purpose - progeny. then, he's celibate for the remainder of his life (or so it implied).  wait.  that was augustine.  sorry.  it was augustine.

perhaps it was his constantine's mother helene that saw the cross.  also, she brought back literal pieces of the cross supposedly.
 
interesting about president carter filing a ufo report.  he's always made me smile.  i think he's a genuine kind of person and hard to argue with.

[thalbergmad]

i think he's a genuine kind of person and hard to argue with.

Reminds me of someone.

Thal

[prometheus]

I have also seen a UFO.

I don't think much of it. Just because I didn't know what it was doesn't mean it was anything relevant. Let alone an extraterrestrial space craft, haha.


Just let go some balloons with small candles hanging underneath them and people will freak out because of the UFO-alien connection.


There's even UFO experts, nice oxymoron. They are experts in knowing stuff about something which by definition you don't know what it is.

[thalbergmad]

They are experts in knowing stuff about something which by definition you don't know what it is.

A bit like priests i guess.

Thal

[pianistimo]

never thought of the balloon/candle idea.  hmmm.  another fourth of july idea for the children.  or i could do it - and then say 'look up in the sky.  i think i see a ufo.'

[timothy42b]

There's even UFO experts, nice oxymoron. They are experts in knowing stuff about something which by definition you don't know what it is.

What gets me is that there are a lot of people who make a good living out of Shroud of Turin research - and they don't even have access to it.  There are institutes all over the place - even Richmond Virginia has one - but the actual Shroud is in Italy and only shown every ten years. 

pianistimmo believes in the Shroud even though the bible actually says the head and body were wrapped separately which would rule out a one piece shroud. 

[allthumbs]

Could be, seeing things in the sky in hardly a modern thing.

In the Middle ages it was firey crosses, not saucers.

Thal

Read von Daniken's book 'Chariots of the Gods' for some thought provoking theories on some of these sightings in recorded history, including passages in the Bible.

Most think his theories are a bunch of hogwash, but interesting reading nonetheless.



allthumbs

[prometheus]

There's hundreds of those kinds of books. And yes they are interesting to read and they kindle the imagination. But they are all 'hogwash' and they only misinform you. Better read fantasy or SF literature which is known and honest fiction.


But their writers surely make a good living writing those books. So one wonders if they actually believe what they write, which I would not be very suprised about, or if they are consciously tricking people by writing down crazy theories people would like to see as being true.




And, if you get very one-sided information you can make everything seem probable. You can provide evidence for everything. But you need to look at the whole picture.

The way Eric von Daniken presents things seems very convincing. But if you take a step back and look at things out of the context he provided then you will interpret it way differently.


Micheal Shermer, a well-educated person and a leading skeptic, wrote a book called "Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time."

It has a chapter called "Why intelligent people believe weird things." It turns out that intelligent people are much much better at this than the less intelligent or more average people.

Real life examples are chess super-greats like Fischer and Kasparov. Both believe in totally absurd things. While Fischer is clearly nuts all over the place, Kasparov seems like a very reasonable person in many other things. His analysis of the politics in Russia seems dead on and he points out that his objective and reasonable analysis, which he learned in chess, is very important for this.
But then he does believe in 'New Chronology' as proposed by his friend Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko.

This hypothesis proposes that all historical events we know actually happened after 1000 CE.
The reason Kasparov supports this because he cannot imagine human civilization going through the Dark Ages.



Intelligent people are better at coming up with totally far fetched or just crazy hypotheses. Furthermore, intelligent people are much better at rationalizing their stupid ideas.

[wishful thinker]

Apparently Al Gore was born 9 months after Roswell ....and its obvious that "Al" is short for "alien"...

...which is why God, being on speaking terms with George Dubya Bush, got all the chads pregnant (though a mysterious process of immaculate conception) so that he could become President and bring peace and democracy to the world 

[pianistimo]

?  not sure i follow.

about the headcloth and shroud.  they were sewn together at one point (having been separated for years in different places and brought together later).  i can't claim to know this for certain - but pbs had a documentary on the shroud and it's various examinations. 

just like noah's ark - after a certain number of years you are dealing with a lot of plain old disintegration and yet - you see things that look 'likely.'  for instance in that high plain in turkey there is a rock with stick sort of figures of 8 people.  also, some very heavy boat anchors that are still there after all these years.  why are they up in the mountains?

i think the proverbial proof is to go and take pictures and study things for yourself.  but, who has that kind of time and money and will risk getting turkulated?  these are holy places to the turks, too.  they don't want to show all - at once.  plus, isn't it somewhat of a spot (high in mountains) that people could use to spy - so they're not too keen on people going up mount ararat.  and the weather is usually bad very high up.

about aliens - one thanksgiving i worked at a food distribution place in lancaster, ca and was serving some meals - and heard about a man who had come into the place - been served - but never went out.  just disappeared.  they keep tabs on the front and back doors to make sure people only eat once or something - and they couldn't figure out where he went.  speculation was an angel had eaten there.  how to prove it?  you can't.  he disappeared.

[thalbergmad]

The way Eric von Daniken presents things seems very convincing. 

Yeh, but not enough to keep him out of prison.

Thal

[prometheus]

He is in prison?


They should put him and Hovind together.

[thalbergmad]

I don't know where he is at the moment, but i know he has been and i think it was for fraud.

Being the main force behind "Ancient Astronaut" Theories, i think he is largely ignored by mainstream archeologists, but i do enjoy reading his books. He was in the habit of "inventing" evidence and jumping to conclusions.

Chariots of the Gods and According to the Evidence are great books, but should be read with caution.

Thal

[pianistimo]

how much caution can you have.  just not look up into the night sky?  if you do that long enough - your bound to see something.

[thalbergmad]

how much caution can you have. 

Reading Von Daniken is a bit like reading the Bible.

At least half it is rubbish, but nobody knows (despite claims to the contrary), which half.

Thal

[pianistimo]

which half of the heavens is rubbish?  which flower is unmatched to another flower.  same number of petals.  which mandelbrot set does not go on infinately smaller and/or larger.  there is intelligence and design.  God gave us the bible so we could know what we were designed for.  i think to love each other.

[thalbergmad]

which half of the heavens is rubbish? 

No idea, you tell me.

On second thoughts, please don't.

Thal