Sibelius

[mcgillcomposer]

Does anyone else think that his symphonies are absolutely fantastic? He is such an underrated composer.

[ahinton]

Does anyone else think that his symphonies are absolutely fantastic? He is such an underrated composer.

Different question (sorry); does anyone not?

Best,

Alistair

[mcgillcomposer]

Different question (sorry); does anyone not?

Best,

Alistair

Touché.

[pianistimo]

finlandia all the way.

sibelius was also pretty good in his chorale arrangments.  or were they arranged by wilcoski or someone like that.  i remember 'onwards and upwards' or some such choral piece.  or was it 'onward, ye people.'

[ahinton]

finlandia all the way.

All what way? One of Sibelius's weakest works, surely? What about En Saga, the symphonies (especially 4 and 7), The Oceanides, Tapiola, the Violin Concerto, Night Ride and Sunrise, etc.?...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

ahinton, you again astound me by your instant recall of a single composer's works.  someday i will sit and listen to all of this.  i suppose sibelius is a sort of backwards beethoven with a little dvorak sprinkled on it.  was that 'tapioca' or 'tapiola?'  what is tapiola?

[counterpoint]

i suppose sibelius is a sort of backwards beethoven with a little dvorak sprinkled on it. 

What a brilliant remark! 

[ahinton]

What a brilliant remark! 

Indeed as "brilliant" as the average winter's day in northern Finland...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

ahinton, you again astound me by your instant recall of a single composer's works.

Not that astounding, really; it's the works themslves that qualify for that epithet...

someday i will sit and listen to all of this. i suppose sibelius is a sort of backwards beethoven with a little dvorak sprinkled on it.

If you can find it in your heart to forgive me for saying so, perhaps you might do yourself and the rest of us a great big favour by trying to do the former before ever contemplating the possibility of making suppositions of the order of sheer fatuity of the latter? That would somehow seem to be the right way around, really...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

what i meant by backwards beethoven is that his works don't seem stuck to classical form - but yet carry the characteristics of beethoven's chordal means to an end.  what do you think?  also, the reason i add dvorak is that the 'nationalistic' element is there and inserts itself at times with little folksy tune stuff.

ps i have heard more than finlandia on the classical music station here.  just don't recall which and what.

pss aren't you a bit bossy tonight.

[mcgillcomposer]

what i meant by backwards beethoven is that his works don't seem stuck to classical form - but yet carry the characteristics of beethoven's chordal means to an end.  what do you think?  also, the reason i add dvorak is that the 'nationalistic' element is there and inserts itself at times with little folksy tune stuff.

Could you please enlighten us on what you mean by classical form and the 'chordal means' that are particular to Beethoven?

[counterpoint]

i suppose sibelius is a sort of backwards beethoven with a little dvorak sprinkled on it. 

I say it again: absolutely brilliant observation!

The belligerent Beethoven and the fatalistic and resignative Sibelius.

Backwards Beethoven... I couldn't have said it better 

[landru]

Different question (sorry); does anyone not?

Best,

Alistair

Apparently in the 1940's or so onward, looking down on Sibelius *was* the accepted behaviour for a lot of people. The New Yorker magazine's Alex Ross had a great article (https://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross) in a recent issue on Sibelius and brought up some quotes from Virgil Thomson and Stravinsky that are really harsh:

In 1940, Virgil Thomson became the music critic of the New York Herald Tribune, and in his début review he tore lustily into Sibelius, calling the Second Symphony “vulgar, self-indulgent, and provincial beyond all description.” Equally venomous attacks emanated from the Schoenberg camp. The émigré theorist Theodor W. Adorno prepared a dire analysis of the Sibelius phenomenon for a sociological think tank called the Princeton Radio Research Project: “The work of Sibelius is not only incredibly overrated, but it fundamentally lacks any good qualities. . . . If Sibelius’s music is good music, then all the categories by which musical standards can be measured—standards which reach from a master like Bach to most advanced composers like Schoenberg—must be completely abolished.”

In the past, Stravinsky had belittled Sibelius: on the occasion of the old man’s death, he had slammed down the phone when a reporter called for a comment.

I love Sibelius's orchestral music, the colors and moods are incredible. And his harmonies are unmistakable - I probably can spot a Sibelius work in 20 seconds of hearing.

[pianistimo]

*thanks, counterpoint!

perhaps you, landru, can explain better what might make sibelius chordal movement in some of his compositions a bit like beethoven's.  all i can think is the 9th symphony and the chorale at the end - but i know there are more similarities that i am trying to express (even in the sonatas of beethoven).  just not sure what to compare them to in sibelius's works as i am not as familiar with all of them.  i just noticed how absolutely simple 'onwards, ye people' was.  he wasn't afraid to use unisons - either.  so you have this stunning chordal movement and then at appropriate times very stunning unisons.  big contrasts.

also, he liked to fully utilize crescendos and decrescendos.  and, appropriately marked them in - and felt they were important enough to deliniate squarely.

[ahinton]

pss aren't you a bit bossy tonight.

No, Susan dear (assuming that this is directed at me); not at all. I merely try to respond honestly and reasonably to what I read.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Alistair will probbly know this:

What is the piece of music played at the beginning of "The Sky at Night"?. I am sure i heard it was Sibelius, but cannot find what it is.

Thal

[mcgillcomposer]

Alistair will probbly know this:

What is the piece of music played at the beginning of "The Sky at Night"?. I am sure i heard it was Sibelius, but cannot find what it is.

Thal

At the Castle Gate from Pelléas et Mélisande...oops, my name isn't Alistair.

[ahinton]

Apparently in the 1940's or so onward, looking down on Sibelius *was* the accepted behaviour for a lot of people. The New Yorker magazine's Alex Ross had a great article (https://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross) in a recent issue on Sibelius and brought up some quotes from Virgil Thomson and Stravinsky that are really harsh:

I love Sibelius's orchestral music, the colors and moods are incredible. And his harmonies are unmistakable - I probably can spot a Sibelius work in 20 seconds of hearing.

Yes, indeed it is the case that Sibelius came in for some pretty harsh treatment from certain professional critics, especially in America at one stage - but then so did Rakhmaninov. Adorno' s remarks on Sibelius might even be taken - unlikely as it may seem - in the context of his dismissal of certain aspects of the work of Stravinsky that seemed so harsh to Schönberg, of all people, that he wrote (I think it was to Stuckenschmidt) to register strong protest about this. To return to Sibelius, we should perhaps remember that Schönberg, whose perspectives were far wider than those of almost any critic in his adopted country, praised both Sibelius and - wait for it - Shostakovich(!) as composer who "breathed" symphonies...

Composers of all kinds can go in and out of both public and critical fashion; that fact says little of itself about the intrinsic value of the best of their work, whether the composer concerned is Sibelius or someone else.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

At the Castle Gate from Pelléas et Mélisande...oops, my name isn't Alistair.

Correct in the first - and think yourself lucky in the second!...

Best,

Alexandre d'Écosse

[thalbergmad]

At the Castle Gate from Pelléas et Mélisande...oops, my name isn't Alistair.

Splendid old chap.

Thanks

Thal

[thalbergmad]

finlandia all the way.

Superb piece of music, but sounds better on a 200 stop, 20,000 pipe, blow your brains out organ.

The organ arrangement was made by "Fricker" and was recently recorded as part of Hyperions excellent organ fireworks series.

Well worth a listen in my most humble opinion.

Tha

[ahinton]

Superb piece of music, but sounds better on a 200 stop, 20,000 pipe, blow your brains out organ.

If it must be listened to, I have to admit to preferring the version by Sibelius - and not only for the fact that it offers a better chance of leaving what remains of the brain intact thereafter...

The organ arrangement was made by "Fricker" and was recently recorded as part of Hyperions excellent organ fireworks series.

One H. A Fricker, that is - not the late Peter Racine Fricker, the British composer.

Well worth a listen in my most humble opinion.

Tha

So much so that apparently it takes the 'l' out of you...

Best,

Alistai

[thalbergmad]

So much so that apparently it takes the 'l' out of you...

Sounds more Finlandic that way.

Thor

[pianistimo]

pipe organ.  yes.  that would work.  *considers pulling all the stops.

[thalbergmad]

pipe organ.  yes.  that would work.  *considers pulling all the stops.

It sure does and this particular work seems perfect for organ reduction.

To me, many orchestral works sound better on the organ, in particular the Elgar Pomp and Circumstance marches.

A lot of Wagner sounds pretty damned good as well.

Thal

[pianistimo]

i was looking up if sibelius actually played the organ.  this mentions harmonium, too. 
https://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/urkuteoksia.htm

t'would be interesting to play the 'preludium' and 'postludium' for organ that were from 1925 and only recently published in 2001.

[mikey6]

Is it a defect in the composer or the critic? Why is it that most of the 'greats' patriotic works are disliked by critics and learned muso's? Pomp and Circumstance, Finlandia, 1812, Wellington's Victory (although, I do find this a rather crappy piece anyway)....

[ahinton]

To me, many orchestral works sound better on the organ, in particular the Elgar Pomp and Circumstance marches.

A lot of Wagner sounds pretty damned good as well.

Thal

I'm just trying - with no small amount of difficulty and even greater consternation - to imagine Ravel's Rapsodie Espagnole, Mahler's Ninth Symphony, Strauss's Ein Heldenleben, Schönberg's Variations for Orchestra, Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony, Szymanowski's two violin concerti and the concerti for orchestra by Lutosławski, Gerhard and Carter in organ transcriptions, however expertly made. And now, for the sake of what little sanity remains to me, I'm trying NOT to imagine this. I'm pleased that at least you opened that one with "To me"; would it not have occurred to you that, as a rule, composers themselves know when to write for organ and when to write for orchestra? I'm not suggesting that no orchestral works by anyone are amenable to legitimate and worthwhile organ transcription - far from it - but to suggest that any - let alone "many" - sound "better on the organ" is surely out of order - and to claim that "A lot of Wagner" falls into this category borders upon the absurd; take away the finely judged orchestral sonorities from the score of Tristan und Isolde and replacing them with even the world's finest organ and you might as well take away its melodies, harmonies, counterpoint, rhythms and story as well...

You've really ventured into shaky territory here, Thal; time for you to think about another sojourn in the vicinity of St. Kilda, perhaps (and any more of this kind of thing from you and -never mind St. Kilda - I'll have you sent to St. Susan for some personal indoctrination)...

Now - back to Sibelius, anyone? Sibelius, by the way, originally wanted to be first and foremost a violinist, rather as Shostakovich planned to be a pianist (neither of them intended to be organists, please note); I've never heard any recording of Sibelius playing the violin but I have heard some of Shostakovich playing the piano and that experience alone suffices in convincing me that these two each came to the correct decision about their rerspective musical futures...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

personal indoctrination, alistair?  and what would i personally be indoctrinating thalbergmad in?  not to mess with orchestral pieces?  and how would i do that - with the wannamaker organ in the vicinity? (not to mention fred j cooper's at the kimmel center). things just sound 'bigger.'  we even have a fairly good sized organ at ursinus college.  i missed the last recital. 

organ music and hurricanes probably go together.

alistair, could shostakovich sing like sibelius, though?  see - sibelius was a true backwards beethoven.

https://www.sibelius.fi/english/erikoisaiheet/ihmisena/ihm_01.htm  a bit more i found about sibelius.  doesn't he look like a butler on a 'whodunit' movie.

[ahinton]

personal indoctrination, alistair?  and what would i personally be indoctrinating thalbergmad in?  not to mess with orchestral pieces?  and how would i do that - with the wannamaker organ in the vicinity? (not to mention fred j cooper's at the kimmel center).

I have no idea how you would do it, if you could do it or even if you would want to try to do it but am even more sure that this would not at all be the kind of personal indoctrination in which I would assume you to indulge in this context; the Wanamaker organ and the one at the Kimmel Centre (Center, sorry) is in any case in YOUR vicinity, not Thal's...

organ music and hurricanes probably go together.

There are occasions when I cannot help but begin to wonder if the kinds of mental procedure that enable you to draw the often strange conclusions that you do from your religious readings are such as to affect your sense of reasoning and judgement in other areas; the above is one example that causes such wonderment. Whilst it is true that pipe organs, especially very large ones, are dependent upon wind pressures, it seems less than logical accordingly to associate them with hurricanes, especially as these rarely occur in the exclusive confines of churches and concert halls that house such instruments.

alistair, could shostakovich sing like sibelius, though?

I have no idea why you would assume that I might have heard either composer sing, especially since neither is known to have made vocal recordings and (unfortunately) I never met either (a meeting between Sibelius and me would in any case have been of little profit to anyone and, although I did nearly meet Shostakovich once, I take leave to doubt that, had that meeting actually taken place, he'd have done more than speak (or cough) a very few words in Russian, let alone sing anything)...

see - sibelius was a true backwards beethoven.

I am actually trying (like most others here, I imagine) NOT to see this preposterous assertion that you now persist in reiterating with a tenacity akin to that which you customarily reserve for claiming that the earth was created by God a mere 6,000 years ago.

https://www.sibelius.fi/english/erikoisaiheet/ihmisena/ihm_01.htm  a bit more i found about sibelius.  doesn't he look like a butler on a 'whodunit' movie.

It has been said that Shura Cherkassky looked more like the local butcher than the local butcher did, but that no more prevented him from being a great pianist than your apparent view of Sibelius's appearance compromised his greatness as a composer.

Incidentally, Beethoven backwards is Nevohteeb - which sounds far more like some OT (if not actually OTT) character than does the great composer who, although of Swedish origin, is forever associated with that northern country of which it might reasonably be said that its bible is the Kalevala.

Best,

Alistair

[furtwaengler]

Does anyone else think that his symphonies are absolutely fantastic? He is such an underrated composer.

Oh absolutely! I listened again to the 6th Symphony tonight, two performances (Helsinki City Orchestra 6/1954, and the Royal Philharmonic 9/1954) lead by Sir Thomas Beecham, who showed great dedication to Sibelius's works. I've been on the 6th lately, since I was able to hear three live performances on three consecutive nights up close in three different seats in a new and very nice concert hall. It was a great program: Sibelius 6, Michael Daugherty's fantastic piano concerto, Deus Ex Machina, Strauss's Serenade for Winds, and Resphigi's Pines of Rome. What a marvelous opportunity it was. On a recent road trip, I was sure to take along several recordings of the 6th...it's really found my core.

I love all the 7 Symphonies, but the 4th is favorite. It's as inward looking a piece as has been written. Otto Klemperer, believe it or not, performed the 4th a couple times, and according to the book, "Klemperer on Music: Shavings from a Musician's Workbench," he addressed the audience before a performance with the LAPO in 1937:

" ... The work ends in complete darkness. This is no work for the masses, this is the solitary song of a man who does not care for loud success. He wishes to move your souls and not to entertain your taste. I would be glad if you would give me half an hour of concentration. The Sibelius is not much longer.  But this half hour is filled up with music of an original and uncompromising composer.  If my words would help you to appreciate more and more this work, I would be very happy."

That about says it.

[thalbergmad]

I'm just trying - with no small amount of difficulty and even greater consternation - to imagine Ravel's Rapsodie Espagnole, Mahler's Ninth Symphony, Strauss's Ein Heldenleben, Schönberg's Variations for Orchestra, Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony, Szymanowski's two violin concerti and the concerti for orchestra by Lutosławski, Gerhard and Carter in organ transcriptions, however expertly made.

Sorry, i was referring to music.

Thal

[cmg]

Sorry, i was referring to music.

Thal

    Well, you can't beat Sibelius, and speaking of other symphonists located where the winters are interminable and the summers hypnotically long, how about Kurt Atterberg?  A Swede whose nine symphonies are occasionally uneven, but spotted and even saturated with some of the loveliest melodies and orchestration this side of Tschaikovsky.

And a little farther south, how about George Lloyd?  Twelve symphonies, many of which are among my favorite works in that form.  Tonal as all get out, but not derivative or retro-sounding.  Lloyd reminds me that the old tonal system will always have life in it when an inspired composer is at work.

And what about Alberic Magnard?  Franz Schmidt?  Ernst von Dohnanyi?  George Antheil? 

[ahinton]

Sorry, i was referring to music.

Thal

No need to apologise, but are you seriously seeking to imply that Ravel, Mahler, Strauss, Schönberg, Shostakovich, Szymanowski, Lutosławski, Gerhard and Carter never wrote any music?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

With the exception of Gerhard (whom i have never heard of), nothing that i have been able to listen to without the application of ear plugs.

Thal

[cmg]

Not to mention Hugo Alfven, Erkki Melartin, Bohuslav Martinu, George Rochberg, Walter Piston, Ned Rorem . . .

[cmg]

Gladys Knight?

[ahinton]

With the exception of Gerhard (whom i have never heard of), nothing that i have been able to listen to without the application of ear plugs.

Thal

Then I - and surely many others here - can only feel desperately sorry for you. No Ravel? No Strauss? No Mahler? What about Debussy? Skryabin? Busoni? Bruckner? Liszt? Alkan? Who else among the luminaries is to be largely excluded from your apparently ever-dwindling list?

You've never heard of Roberto Gerhard? One of the greatest Catalan composers - pupil of both Pedrell and Schönberg - settled and spent the latter part of his life in the Cambridge area. You have so much to discover and look forward to - or at least you would have if you were not so apparently dismissive of so many other composers. Dear me!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Then I - and surely many others here - can only feel desperately sorry for you. No Ravel? No Strauss? No Mahler? What about Debussy? Skryabin? Busoni? Bruckner? Liszt? Alkan? Who else among the luminaries is to be largely excluded from your apparently ever-dwindling list?

And i indeed for them if they have not yet enjoyed the brilliance of Pixis.

No Strauss (unless Johann), No Mahler, No Debussy, little bits of Ravel and Bruckner, a decent slice of Scriabin and Busoni, Loads of Alkan and even more Liszt.

My "list" increases, but only in a period of which i can be reasonably certain that my ears won't be offended by a dustbin of dischords.

Thal

[ahinton]

And i indeed for them if they have not yet enjoyed the brilliance of Pixis.

No Strauss (unless Johann), No Mahler, No Debussy, little bits of Ravel and Bruckner, a decent slice of Scriabin and Busoni, Loads of Alkan and even more Liszt.

My "list" increases, but only in a period of which i can be reasonably certain that my ears won't be offended by a dustbin of dischords.

Thal

Then it's a wonder that you're even writing to me, dear Thal! What's so wrong with Mahler, Debussy and Strauss for you, then?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Then it's a wonder that you're even writing to me, dear Thal! What's so wrong with Mahler, Debussy and Strauss for you, then?

Mahler is long and boring, Debussy is French Impressionistic rubbish and Strauss is used to extract confessions at guantanamo bay.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I know you are writing another post Hinty, but i want to watch me George Formby DVD now.

Real bloomin music.

Speak tomorrow.

Thal

[ahinton]

Mahler is long and boring, Debussy is French Impressionistic rubbish and Strauss is used to extract confessions at guantanamo bay.

Thal

OK, so you are telling us that all of Mahler's songs are "long and boring", French impressionism in its entirety is by definition rubbish (does this apply in your view to all aspects of it or only to its manifestations in music?) and prisoners lucky enough to win a holiday at Guantanamo Bay Hilton get to listen to works such as Metamorphosen, Der Rosenkavalier, Till Eulenspiegel, Vier Letzte Lieder, etc. do they? Well, one learns nothing new every day...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I know you are writing another post Hinty, but i want to watch me George Formby DVD now.

Real bloomin music.

Thal

Like Liszt, you mean? The trouble with things that are once "bloomin" is that they eventually fade and die...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

OK, so you are telling us that all of Mahler's songs are "long and boring

I never got as far as the songs.

The symphonic works were enough to put me off listening further.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

French impressionism in its entirety is by definition rubbish

Agreed.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

You have so much to discover and look forward to - or at least you would have if you were not so apparently dismissive of so many other composers. Dear me!

I generally make my mind up after maybe listening to 3 or 4 pieces, whether a composer warrants further investigation.

I indeed do have much to discover, and the last couple of years for me has been a journey of discovery. I have listened, studied and sometimes played the music of Kalkbrenner, Herz, Pixis, Hunten, Malling, Martucci, Heller, Moscheles, Arensky, Bortkiewicz, Beach, Brassin, Bronsart, Brull, Chaminade, Gottschalk, J B Cramer, Steibelt, Dreyschock, Ferrata, Friedman, Favarger, Fumagelli, Godard, De Greef, Grunfeld, Hahn, Henselt, Jensen, Ketelby, Korngold, Kullak, Leschetizky, Litolff, Massenet, Menter, Moszkowski, Pugno, Raff, Rebikov, Rosenthal, Stavenhagen, Samaroff, Scharwenka, Sgambati, Siloti, Smetana, Stradal, Tausig, Thalberg, Pabst, Vierne, Weber, Widor &  Wolflf.

I see what you mean about my dwindling list.

Turned out nice again.

Best

George F

[ahinton]

I never got as far as the songs.

The symphonic works were enough to put me off listening further.

Thal

Shame!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

OK, so you are telling us that...French impressionism in its entirety is by definition rubbish (does this apply in your view to all aspects of it or only to its manifestations in music?)

Agreed.

Thal

It's no good your trying to make some kind of point by selective quotation (in this instance removing the first 6 words thereof) from me, you know! What you replied to is as above, so you cannot "agree" to a question!

What you yourself appear to be saying, however, is that all aspects of French impressionism are by definition rubbish, which is very sad for you. I'll now ask you if you feel the same way about all impressionism, whether in music or the visual arts and irrespective of its country of origin, is all rubbish to you and, if the answer to that is also in the affirmative, we'll be even sadder for you.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I generally make my mind up after maybe listening to 3 or 4 pieces, whether a composer warrants further investigation.

That can sometimes work, but I would suggest that, more often thn not, it is a rather riskier strategy...

I indeed do have much to discover, and the last couple of years for me has been a journey of discovery. I have listened, studied and sometimes played the music of Kalkbrenner, Herz, Pixis, Hunten, Malling, Martucci, Heller, Moscheles, Arensky, Bortkiewicz, Beach, Brassin, Bronsart, Brull, Chaminade, Gottschalk, J B Cramer, Steibelt, Dreyschock, Ferrata, Friedman, Favarger, Fumagelli, Godard, De Greef, Grunfeld, Hahn, Henselt, Jensen, Ketelby, Korngold, Kullak, Leschetizky, Litolff, Massenet, Menter, Moszkowski, Pugno, Raff, Rebikov, Rosenthal, Stavenhagen, Samaroff, Scharwenka, Sgambati, Siloti, Smetana, Stradal, Tausig, Thalberg, Pabst, Vierne, Weber, Widor &  Wolflf.

I see what you mean about my dwindling list.

Whilst that list may be long and in many ways interesting, it contains few if any really big name composers; of those you cite, perhaps the more important are Martucci, Arensky, Beach, Hahn, Korngold, Massenet, Sgambati, Vierne, Weber and Widor and certainly a thumbs up also goes for Smetana (composer of some splendid miniatures for piano among many other things). You don;t say which Scharwenka you mean and I think that your last-names composer has a spare "f" at the end (and, if you took the final "l" off him as well, you'd really have an important composer!). It's indeed enterprising of you to investigate the work of all of these, yet most of their work was written more than 8 decades ago!

Turned out nice again.

Best

George F

Depends on one's opinion of "nice" and, perhaps, on the particular "George F" as whom you are (presumably temporarily) signing off...

I think that it's high time we all got back again to Sibelius here, don't you? (or is even he unworthy of Thalbergian consideration?)...

Best,

Alistair