Angels, where do they come from?

[counterpoint]

To me, the concept of Angels doesn't fit at all to the christian belief, that there is only one God and all creations are created by him.

Please explain 

[ahinton]

Pennsylvania.

(Sorry about the long and complex sentence, by the way).

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

To me, the concept of Angels doesn't fit at all to the christian belief, that there is only one God and all creations are created by him.

Please explain 

What manner of nonsense is this    Angels are the attendants of God in Heaven, and act as his messengers to men on earth.  They were created by God, but are not divine.

[counterpoint]

They were created by God

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. When did he create them?

[wishful thinker]

In the Beggining, natch 

[shortyshort]

In the Beggining, natch 

I thought that he/she created the heavens and the earth in the begining 

[wishful thinker]

In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum
Hoc erat in principio apud Deum
Omnia per ipsum facta sunt et sine ipso factum est nihil quod factum est
In ipso vita erat et vita erat lux hominum
Et lux in tenebris lucet et tenebrae eam non conprehenderunt

the last line's for you 

[shortyshort]

In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum
Hoc erat in principio apud Deum
Omnia per ipsum facta sunt et sine ipso factum est nihil quod factum est
In ipso vita erat et vita erat lux hominum
Et lux in tenebris lucet et tenebrae eam non conprehenderunt

the last line's for you 

Ah, it all makes sense now, thank you.

[jlh]

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. When did he create them?

According to the bible, it was prior to the creation of the earth:

Job 38:4,7 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. While the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?"

[counterpoint]

This one answers your question:

Before the earth was,the angels were allready created
Where were thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
When the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:1,4,7)
Declare if thou has understanding.

The sons of God shouted for joy - before the earth was created. Yes, I understand 

[jlh]

The sons of God shouted for joy - before the earth was created. Yes, I understand 

Sons of God is a Hebrew translation for angels.

[jlh]

Here's a few more from the bible if you're interested:


Nehamiah 9:6 "You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host [angels], the earth and all that is on it..."

Colossians 1:16 "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

Psalms 148:2,5 "Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts [angels]. Let them praise the name of the LORD, for at his command they were created"

[wishful thinker]

I behold till thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days sat: His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like clean wool: His throne like flames of fire: the wheels of it like a burning fire. A swift stream of fire issued forth from before Him: thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before Him: the judgment sat and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10)

[ahinton]

I still reckon Pennsylvania, meself...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

more a sort of anti-angel ?  (you can really see the simmilarity, can't you?)

[jlh]

I still reckon Pennsylvania, meself...

Best,

Alistair

You're probably right... otherwise, how would one explain the Amish and Mennonites in PA?

[prometheus]

The creation story doesn't mention the creation of the angels.

I assume to goes on before the bible.

[wishful thinker]

In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram

In the Beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth.

There cannot therefor have been anything in Heaven (such as Angels) before the Beginning.

And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Dixit quoque Deus fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum et dividat aquas ab aquis
A firmament... By this name is here understood the whole space between the earth, and the highest stars. The lower part of which divideth the waters that are upon the earth, from those that are above in the clouds.

1:7. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.
Et fecit Deus firmamentum divisitque aquas quae erant sub firmamento ab his quae erant super firmamentum et factum est ita

1:8. And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day.

[jlh]

In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram

In the Beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth.

There cannot therefor have been anything in Heaven (such as Angels) before the Beginning.

From John Calvin's commentary of Genesis 1:1...

"1. "In the beginning." To expound the term "beginning", of Christ, is altogether frivolous. For Moses simply intends to assert that the world was not perfected at its very commencement, in the manner in which it is now seen, but that it was created an empty chaos of heaven and earth. His language therefore may be thus explained. When God in the beginning created the heaven and the earth, the earth was empty and waste. He moreover teaches by the word "created," that what before did not exist was now made; for he has not used the term "yatsar", which signifies to frame or forms but "bara", which signifies to create. Therefore his meaning is, that the world was made out of nothing. Hence the folly of those is refuted who imagine that unformed matter existed from eternity; and who gather nothing else from the narration of Moses than that the world was furnished with new ornaments, and received a form of which it was before destitute. This indeed was formerly a common fable among heathens, who had received only an obscure report of the creation, and who, according to custom, adulterated the truth of God with strange figments; but for Christian men to labour (as Steuchus does) in maintaining this gross error is absurd and intolerable. Let this, then be maintained in the first place, that the world is not eternal but was created by God. There is no doubt that Moses gives the name of heaven and earth to that confused mass which he, shortly afterwards, (verse 2,) denominates waters. The reason of which is, that this matter was to be the seed of the whole world. Besides, this is the generally recognized division of the world.

"God." Moses has it Elohim, a noun of the plural number. Whence the inference is drawn, that the three Persons of the Godhead are here noted; but since, as a proof of so great a matter, it appears to me to have little solidity, will not insist upon the word; but rather caution readers to beware of violent glosses of this, kind. They think that they have testimony against the Asians, to prove the Deity of the Son and of the Spirit, but in the meantime they involve themselves in the error of Sabellius, because Moses afterwards subjoins that the Elohim had spoken, and that the Spirit of the Elohim rested upon the waters. If we suppose three persons to be here denoted, there will be no distinction between them. For it will follow, both that the Son is begotten by himself, and that the Spirit is not of the Father, but of himself. For me it is sufficient that the plural number expresses those powers which God exercised in creating the world. Moreover I acknowledge that the Scripture, although it recites many powers of the Godhead, yet always recalls us to the Father, and his Word, and spirit, as we shall shortly see. But those absurdities, to which I have alluded, forbid us with subtlety to distort what Moses simply declares concerning God himself, by applying it to the separate Persons of the Godhead. This, however, I regard as beyond controversy, that from the peculiar circumstance of the passage itself, a title is here ascribed to God, expressive of that powers which was previously in some way included in his eternal essence."

[wishful thinker]

No in the least bit interested in what Calvin had to say about anything 

[jlh]

No in the least bit interested in what Calvin had to say about anything 

Point taken.  It probably doesn't apply to what you said anyway.  Looking back I think you were talking about the beginning as in "the absolute beginning of everything".  In that case, I would agree with you. 

[prometheus]

In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram

In the Beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth.

This should be understood as:

"At the beginning god started creating."

And then the story explains how it happened.

[wishful thinker]

well yes, the Beginning is the beginning of Heaven and Earth, not the beginning of everything - because God must have existed before the beginning of the world "In the beginning was the Word"

[prometheus]

With 'the heaven and the earth' is meant the dry land and the sky in the area where the people of the OT lived.

[wishful thinker]

Not necessarily.  Heaven means different things at different times in the Bible , from "sky" to the abode of God and the eternally blessed.  It is reasonable to take either (and both) interpretation in the creation story, as Heaven being the counter-balance to Earth, its creation with earth goes hand-in-hand.

But to really know, we must await Pianistimo's rise from her slumbers 

[prometheus]

Yes, in different parts of the bible. But in this part of the bible it can't mean the afterlife since that was invented much later. Jewish people still don't know the concept of a heaven.

So surely it does not mean 'heaven' here. 'Heaven and earth' just means the world the OT people lived in.

It excluded the American continents, for example.

So it is a fictional world since the world the OT authors imagined doesn't actually exist.

[jlh]

Yes, in different parts of the bible. But in this part of the bible it can't mean the afterlife since that was invented much later. Jewish people still don't know the concept of a heaven.

So surely it does not mean 'heaven' here. 'Heaven and earth' just means the world the OT people lived in.

It excluded the American continents, for example.

So it is a fictional world since the world the OT authors imagined doesn't actually exist.

Fictional world?  I don't consider the physical universe we know to be fictional.

I agree that the story of creation describes "heaven and earth" as being dry land and sky, but don't see how excluding continents unknown at the time has any significance.  Fact is that at one point in time all continents were joined together, forming one large land mass.

[prometheus]

Well, it's quite of obvious. How can the OT writers have meant to include the American continents while they were ignorant of it?


And there is no universe in the biblical world view.
There is a flat world covered with by firmament. This world doesn't exist, therefore it is clearly fictional.

[pianistimo]

this is the first time i've seen this thread.  so - i'll respond to the intial post by counterpoint about 'where do angels come from?'  and, 'why are some angels worshipped.'  now, take into consideration that i'm not a biblical scholar and am explaining this in 'layman/woman's' terms. 

as it was explained to me (from the books of I and II peter and jude - and also ezekiel) lucifer was originally created as 'light' or 'lightbringer.'  a 'covering archangel' over the very throne of God.  a type of this would be the 'ark' of the covenant - which had -if i remember right - wings on the top symbolizing the 'servants of God' that were created.  angels.  also, they were created as the 'heavenly host' to praise God day and night and also to serve man after he was created.

so, the bible does indicate angels were created first.  they are spirit.  therefore, the earth didn't have to exist when they were created.  in fact, i don't know if anyone knows how long they existed - but they were even before 'the first of the ways of God' - or the dinosaurs.  the largest animals of creation - that people were so in awe over.  but, angels are more powerful than the largest of God's creations physically.  and, because lucifer was at the very throne of God - he can make himself appear 'like' God - but not actually God.  he is knowledgeable about God.  He recognizes God and His Spirit.  in fact, so much so - that in acts it mentions a 'fake christian' that was attempting to cast out demons - and he said - I know about paul, and I know about Jesus Christ - but who are you?  and allowed demons to jump literally into this man and infest him with their evil spirits.  this is another topic - but - one that Christians take literally.  that our brains and minds can be 'infected' by evil spirits.  and, the best way to get rid of this is to read God's word.  Satan hates the mind and thoughts of God and mentioning Jesus Christ is the best way to get him and his demons to leave.

ok.  ezekiel 28 is the first real and definite description that i see in the bible of Satan.  ez 28:12 '...you had the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.  you were in eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering...on the day that you were created they were prepared.  you were the anointed cherub who covers, and i placed you there.  you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst of the stones of fire.  you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in your.  by the abundance of your trade you were interally filled with violence, and you sinned; therefore i have cast you as profane from the mountian of God.  and i have destroyed you, o covering cherub , from the midst of the stones of fire.  your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor....'

so - as i understand it - intially lucifer (light bringer) had great power - even to be at the very throne of God.  but when he and 1/3 of the angels rebelled - as mentioned in revelations 12:7 - they sought power by disrupting the plans of God and turning on humans who had the potential for 'ruling' over the angels after death.  we are 'lower than the angels' (as it mentions somewhere's in the bible) but, after death - we will be above them in service to God.  very 'sons of God.'  now the angels are also called 'sons' but in a different context.  they are also called 'stars.'  servants.  beings that God calls upon when He needs a job done.  but, their potential to be 'like' God - is limited in that they were created just the way they are 'spirit' - but cannot go beyond what they are created as.

ok - i see everyone's points about 'how can you believe this is not mythological?'  unless you experience something paranormal - you probably won't.  but, there are many paranormal things about our universe (we just don't see them).  does that mean they don't exist?  no.  even early man sought ways to explain what was 'unexplainable.'  God has all power.  so He can create something to counter the laws of physics - just as He did with the 'burning bush' for moses and later paul.  something burning - but doesn't burn up.  how can that be?  well, God can do as He pleases.  later, the same things happens with the saint daniel.  how can he, being a physical man - not be touched by fire?  impossible.  and yet - the ruler of the time saw it with his own eyes (after witnessing that also the lions had not eaten daniel).

now, we know that Satan is the ruler of this earth and has been given the 'kingdom's temporarily until the time of Jesus Christ.  but, when Jesus rose from the grave - He judged Satan and his demons and told him he only had a short time left.  revelations mentions Jesus birth (rev 11:5) 'and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne....'   from the ressurrection to now - this is what has been happening:  vs 6 'and there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.  and the dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.  and the great dragon was thrown down (this is shortly to happen in a much more vivid way than has been experienced previously - namely through religious deception and magical 'arts' combininging into people believing a 'mystery religion') to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.'

right after this great deception and burst to take power of the earth - Jesus Christ returns!  rev 12:10 'and i heard a loud voice in heaven saying, 'now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the ACCUSER of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.  and they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death.  for this reason, rejoice, o heavens....because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, KNOWING THAT HE HAS ONLY A SHORT TIME....'

so this 'warfare' is spiritual - and a bit like the mythological 'titans' - but REAL.  completely real.  unexplainable excepting that we know they exist from the influences they put on our brains.  mentally.  spiritually.  do you ever wonder why you feel depressed, tired, mentally unstable.  Satan works on everyone - just as He did Christ.  He told Christ that he would give him the 'kingdoms of the world' - if He would fall down and worship him.  Jesus told him 'Begone, Satan!  For it is written you shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'

now, if our Lord Jesus Christ believed that Satan had power - shouldn't we?  Jesus even rebuked Peter for acquiscing to cut off the servant's ear - and said 'get behind me, Satan.'  so - in the sense that Jesus was obeying the will of His father - He did not fight death!  He knew that his death and ressurrection was feta comple.  therefore, He did not fear anything.  that is the 'superhuman' capabilities of our Father and Jesus Christ - they have overcome death for us.  So we have nothing to fear - and we only have life to look forward to.  not death.  physical death is the only power Satan has over all of us - but to be ressurrected?  he has no part in the ressurrection of the dead. 

[jlh]

Well, it's quite of obvious. How can the OT writers have meant to include the American continents while they were ignorant of it?


And there is no universe in the biblical world view.
There is a flat world covered with by firmament. This world doesn't exist, therefore it is clearly fictional.

The bible doesn't mention a flat world to my knowledge.

[pianistimo]

one other thought is that Satan is mentioned as 'entering Judas who was called iscariot, belonging to the twelve.'  he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them.  because I believe in the mercy of Jesus Christ - i have pondered this so-called book of Judas and wondered if God will hold any human responsible for the crimes of Satan.  after all, Satan is one who takes 'posession' of humans (mind/body/spirit) and uses this to control them.  God's Holy Spirit - on the other hand - is peaceful and works with our conscience - purging it from evil works (which are the things which actually control and lead to death.  ie addictions and things people cannot seem to control).

so - on the one hand of this 'titanic' battle - you have 'evil' and the other side 'good.'  it would seem ridiculous to those who do not experience being motivated to do something that they feel impelled to do (without conscious thought), that they later don't remember doing, and that perhaps would lead to some bad consequences for them personally.  or, visa-versa - the work of the Holy Spirit - which leads some to suddenly realize wider choices for their lives and work towards bringing stability and peace into otherwise very dire circumstances.  and, they see how the Holy Spirit brings peace of MIND.  this is unseen - but real - and i can vouch for being 'prompted' in ways to act differently than i would initially choose by the Holy Spirit reminding me of the words of the bible/God.

[pianogeek_cz]

As to the question of when did "before creation" take place, I'd like to quote Augustine: "Time is just the property of the world God created."

[wishful thinker]

I knew you wouldn't let us down, Susan  

BTW, my life is too short to actually read what you write here; I'll have to rely on Mr Hinton to give us a quick synopsis

[wishful thinker]

BTW Susan, did you like your picture ? 

[prometheus]

The bible doesn't mention a flat world.

Of course it does. Plus, we know from historical sources that the people that wrote the bible believed that the earth was flat and that the people that interpreted the bible believed that the world is flat.

[shortyshort]

I knew you wouldn't let us down, Susan  

BTW, my life is too short to actually read what you write here; I'll have to rely on Mr Hinton to give us a quick synopsis

I think Mr. Hintons life is also too short for these recent posts.  

[pianistimo]

that's ok, wishful thinker.  i can barely read my own messages and occasionally wonder about spelling and grammar - and even 'what was i thinking?' at times.  but, the essence of what i believe is here.  in case anyone is interested.  after all, it was a biblical sort of question.  and who better to answer it than someone who at least reads the bible   (among the many others here who do.  and thanks for the views you all give - whether you do or don't.  it's interesting to see the views of everyone).

wishful thinker - what picture? 

[jlh]

Of course it does. Plus, we know from historical sources that the people that wrote the bible believed that the earth was flat and that the people that interpreted the bible believed that the world is flat.

Ok, I can see that people writing the history books in the bible might believe the earth was flat, but where does it state the earth is flat?

Everyone else in the world believed the world was flat until a few hundred years ago as well.

BTW, how do you interpret Isaiah 40:22?

[shortyshort]

Everyone else in the world believed the world was flat until a few hundred years ago as well.

I think you'll find that's not true.

[pianistimo]

jlh is right - that people were misled until after the middle ages when nobody 'fell off the earth.'  although some continued to think (until christopher columbus's day) that sailors disappeared because of this.  maybe because they didn't read the bible.  job 26:10 'he has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters, at the boundary of light and darkness.'  (speaking of the creation of the earth).

[wishful thinker]

This picture Susan.  Mr Hinton suggested that you are an angel, and I thought that this looked more like you    No offence intended, BTW

more a sort of anti-angel ?  (you can really see the simmilarity, can't you?)

[pianistimo]

who could be a perfect angel around cary grant.  i've always had a crush on him.

[shortyshort]

jlh is right - that people were misled until after the middle ages when nobody 'fell off the earth.'  although some continued to think (until christopher columbus's day) that sailors disappeared because of this.  maybe because they didn't read the bible.  job 26:10 'he has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters, at the boundary of light and darkness.'  (speaking of the creation of the earth).

Misled by the church

[prometheus]

Of course the civilized peoples of the earth knew that the earth is a sphere. But the people of the bible thought it was flat, either flat and square or flat and round.

And this resulted in later people to delude themselves.

We have the Indian civilizations in 8th BC already considering the idea that the earth was a sphere.

Chinese started out with a flat earth.

The peoples of the Mesopotamian world believed the earth was a flat disc hovering over the waters. This matches the bible perfectly. A flat round earth above the waters.


People generally believe the earth is flat by default. Then when they get more civilized and actually start to think they realise the earth is not flat. The greeks is an example.


All this time through the middle ages people actually knew that the earth was a sphere. They just acted though it was flat, because the bible said so. A bit like faith in god today. Eeryone knows that god does not exist, but they just act like he does to show how enlightenened spiritual souls they are.

[timothy42b]

pp,
much of your demonology and angelology seems to come from the Book of Enoch, which some denominations accept as inspired, but I think your particular brand of Christianity rejects.  (I'm not sure why, it was in the Septuagint that Jesus studied, you reject 7 books that were widely read at the time.) 

So, suggestion.  Read Enoch and get back to us on whether your opinion of angels and demons changes. 

[thalbergmad]

Everyone else in the world believed the world was flat until a few hundred years ago as well.

Some still do.

https://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/FlatHome.htm

Thal

[pianistimo]

dear timothy42b,  what part of what i said comes from the book of enoch?  i was quoting I and II peter, jude, and ezekiel.  and, parts of Jesus Christ's own sayings.  i'm not sure what is exactly proven by the book of enoch.  not doubting it one way or another - but the bible as it is seems to contain all the relevant information that we need to decifer evil and good spirits. it's not complicated.  if they acknowledge Jesus Christ came in the flesh (died and was ressurrected to glory) and worship Him - then they are good spirits or angels.  if they don't and draw back at the name or about God's inspired Word - then they are anti-Christ - or anti-God and demons or spirits of demons.  it says that there will be many that come IN his name - but are not of Him.  so - we are told to test the spirits this way.  spirits affect people's minds.

[thalbergmad]

spirits affect people's minds.

There is one thing we agree on.

hic

Thal

[pianistimo]

where's the girlfriend?  don't worry about calling her too frequently.  if she maintained any sort of eye contact the first two dates - it means you're ok.  if she never looked at you once - that's a different story.  i think you should call her.  are you waiting for her to get called by some other guy and have her whisked out from under your nose?  monopolize her time. 

[ahinton]

I knew you wouldn't let us down, Susan  

BTW, my life is too short to actually read what you write here; I'll have to rely on Mr Hinton to give us a quick synopsis

Sorry to disappoint. Mine is, too. So no synopsis, I'm afraid!

Best,

Alistair